The Exchanges

Q There's one other bit of context that I want to, I'm curious about, which is Birmingham, I think, and maybe I'm wrong with this, is sort of, is sort of like the center of bodybuilding culture in the UK a little bit. Like, I guess there are like bodybuilding conferences and conventions in Birmingham. Is that Is it right?

A Yeah. So there's a couple of things. So one, Dorian Yates, one of the best bodybuilders of all time is from Birmingham, but you're right. The, the biggest and the best bodybuilding and lifting event, as far as I was aware, certainly in the UK, possibly Europe was actually run out of Birmingham and it was called the body power event. And we'd all go there just as, as fans. And it was, it was really cool because all of the biggest and the best bodybuilders were always from the US. So to be able to go and see them, see the brands, see the big bodybuilders, In Birmingham was just an amazing thing as a 16, 1718 year old.

AI assessment note: “Yeah. So there's a couple of things. So one, Dorian Yates”

Q And, and you decide that you're gonna go to this, this conference, and what were you gonna do there? I mean, how, how were just t-shirts and hoodies and tank tops gonna be enough to generate excitement?

A So we booked the space the year before, and then that whole year, it sort of gave us something really big to work towards. We were then like, right, let's build our business to this event. So it was, the event was in May. And we, at the time, all of our fitness information, going back to sort of that web development era, all of the information that we learned was through YouTube. So it was just through watching YouTubers and all our favorite fitness people were on YouTube. So we ended up just sort of Building relationships with a handful of YouTubers, and I actually remember Matt Ogus and Chris Lovato, they're, they lived in California at the time. Remember jumping on Skype to them, and just talking about the products that we were making, they gave us feedback, we'd send them the product, they would put them in their YouTube videos.

AI assessment note: “we'd send them the product, they would put them in their YouTube videos.”

Q what were some of the first things that Steve did when he joined? I mean, because at this point, you still have a very limited line of, of products. Given that he had come from Reebok and apparel, was he saying, okay guys, we have to hire now, we have to hire a designer, and we have to think about a whole line of, of apparel we want to sell?

A Yeah, so exactly that. So the first thing that we did was we split the business straight down the middle, and we had front end and back end. So it was, Brand and market on the one end, and then call it like a very early build of a product or a supply chain team, maybe. Now, this was the period where we, we doubled down on events even more. So we, then we traveled a lot. We did events in Ohio, California, Cologne, Melbourne, the UK. At that point, we probably had at least probably like 10 employees. So there was a group of us that would go and just basically sell The product in person to, in the same way that we did that first body pair event.

AI assessment note: “the first thing that we did was we split the business straight down the middle”

Q And this, presumably this didn't really cost you that much money because you could just go to like a I mean, were you literally like just going to, we would call it like Ross or, you know, or TJ Maxx type stores and just buying bulk t-shirts?

A No, we bought them from a UK wholesaler. So you could buy, again, the minimums were low, like the minimums might have been 10 per size or something. So, and then going back to the versus the supplement, because we still had supplements on the website at this point as well, we could sell, I make 50 pounds worth of supplements, make two pounds in margin, or we could sell 30 pounds worth of clothing and make 15 pounds. So it was, that, that to us completely changed the game, because all of a sudden, we were sort of starting to build a model where we could reinvest in our own business, and, and that's when we could really start to grow it.

AI assessment note: “No, we bought them from a UK wholesaler. So you could buy, again, the minimums”

Q you, I mean, you still are super young, and now you're very experienced, which is awesome, but, but as you're sort of building the brand, right, and building the company, just inadvertently by accident, you have to also become a leader of people. Did you always feel like you had those qualities as a kid, or is it something you had to learn how to develop as you got older?

A No, no. For me, I definitely had to learn. Um, as a kid, always very shy, very introverted. I learned a lot of that through watching Steve and, and to be honest, through, through feedback, through feedback, through the business, I've had to completely change the way I work now from 10 years ago when I was in my, you know, early twenties. I've had to completely change. I remember we did, I'd never heard of it before. We'd, we'd moved into our third, our first proper office. We built a team at this point. We probably had I don't know. Call it 30, maybe, maybe 40 people working out of the office, and we did a three 60 feedback, which, I mean, I'm sure you, you know what it is, but for those that don't, it's basically where you have feedback from a group of people that you work closely with. And I had this feedback, and I read it, and I could not believe how bad it was. The, the, the bottom line, I think someone described me as Hurricane Ben, because it was, I would come in, I'd see a design, I wouldn't like it, and then, um, I'd basically just say, that's terrible, start again, sort of thing. And people, you know, I, it basically, I, I could be rude to people, I, I was very abrupt, and just, frankly, not, not very good at working in, in groups. That had a real big impact on me. Now, I didn't actually, I would have been about 24, 25, so this is, I guess, a good five or six years in…

AI assessment note: “No, no. For me, I definitely had to learn.”

Q Yeah. And so how did you, when you started to go to the gym, I mean, going at 16, you know, you're younger than most people in there and can be intimidating. And you know, like, did you, How did you just, like, get into the habit of going every day?

A Um, you find the local gym, you sort of go with friends. I think at that age when you're a teenager, go after school, you sort of travel in a pack of, of, of lads basically. We all do the same workout. Chest Monday, back Tuesday, shoulders Wednesday, legs Thursday, arms Friday sort of thing. But you're right, it was, because I would go into the gym and, and you'd see all these big lifters and, yeah, especially when you're a young teenager and you're really thin, uh, you'd assume that they all You think that they're all looking at you. You think you're doing everything wrong. In reality, they're probably more interested in themselves than they are you, and, you know, no one really cares that much about what other people are doing, but it was intimidating, so I'd just go with friends, and we'd lift weights, and we'd have fun, and we'd go after school.

AI assessment note: “you sort of go with friends. I think at that age when you're a teenager”

Q gym, and that they actually, We're the right people at the right time, the right place. How much of, of where you got to, how much of this business, how much of everything that's happened to you, do you, do you attribute to just luck and chance and fortune, you know, good fortune, and how much do you think had to do with the grind that you put into it?

A Yeah, there's definitely a lot of it's luck, and a lot of it's timing, so like we said, social media, Shopify, fitness uptrend, bodybuilding uptrending, more people going to the gym than, than ever, so there was an element of time in there, With that said, as we've built the business, lots of other people have recognized the same opportunities and maybe not had immediately the same outcome, so I think there's also an element of, we took the risk, we took lots of risks, so to this day we still take risks, and I think the, the commitment to the long term of our business and the ability and Appetite to make those decisions has made a big difference as well, so, I mean, I wouldn't want to put a percentage on it, but it would be, there would definitely be a good chunk of luck and timing, but then with that, I think you have to take advantage of that as well.

AI assessment note: “there would definitely be a good chunk of luck and timing, but then with that”

Q And because this is kind of early-ish YouTube, it wasn't that hard to just connect with them and say, hey, I watch your YouTube videos, can I send you some stuff?

A Yeah, and they were really just excited. They, I don't think they'd probably spoke to anyone from the UK before, and we, through that year, we then not only built enough sales to cover the 3000 pound for the stand, I think we actually upgraded the size of the stand. I think it probably cost us another 3000, but we even had enough money by the, the following May before the event to fly those YouTubers out to the UK to come to the event, and we, I remember we called them, or we asked them if they wanted to come, and they were just Over the moon, they, obviously, they just immediately said yes. So, they flew out to the event, and that, that was a, we didn't even realize it at the time, that was a game changer for us.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and they were really just excited.”

Q And did you have, I mean, at that point, and on staff in like a staff position who, somebody who was a designer, or not, not yet? Were you still mainly basically working with the designers that the manufacturers had on their staff?

A No, not really. The, the, the point where we made, we brought in a design team is actually quite funny. It looks bad on me, but we, the point that we, we built a design team was, it was a few, it was a few years and we, we, we, we thought we wanted to sell, we wanted to expand and we wanted to sell women's products as well as men's. Because again, the, the, the company in the early days was literally built in our image. It was lifting wear for young men to make the physique look better, basically. Right. And we wanted to make women's wear. And I thought, I'll give it a go. How hard can it be? We did our first women range, women's range, and it was terrible. It was absolutely terrible. No one wanted it. It looked terrible. It fitted terrible. It just didn't work. And it was at that point where we realized that if we're going to build, if we're going to do this properly, we need a design team and we need genuine designers who will, you know, think about how a women's range should look.

AI assessment note: “No, not really. The, the, the point where we made, we brought in a design team”

Q But it seems like already you, you were, I mean, you were generating these ideas in your head about Businesses, like things you could do and, and ways you could make money, you know, digitally. Is that right? I mean, was your sort of head moving in that direction already at that, at that age?

A Yeah. The, the, the thing for me was when things quote failed, it never felt like a failure. So when I was, when I was about 14, I, everyone here does work experience. So you, you go away, you do work experience for a little bit and you know, you find out what it's like to actually go into an office or a factory or something like that. So when I was 14, I went and did work experience with, with my granddad. He basically had his own business or he has his own business. He line, so he'd line furnaces. So we'd go into factories around the Midlands, and we'd literally go into the furnaces, and the job would be you either line them with brick or ceramic fibre, so it's basically like an insulation around the inside, and There was a lot of things I learned there. So one, I learned hard work, but the thing that, that really stuck with me was he told me about all the risks he had to take when he started his business. He had two kids, he had a mortgage, he had a wife, and when he was building his business, he had to take massive financial risks that risked the house and, you know, the, the, the roof over the head of his kids. So fast forward four years later, I'm 1718, and I'm trying to start my own business. I genuinely felt like I had no risk. I was, at the time I was working at Pizza Hut, I was earning four pound, five pound an hour. You know, I could buy domain names for three pound …

AI assessment note: “So fast forward four years later, I'm 1718, and I'm trying to start my own business.”

Q But what was the reason he gave you? I mean, did you say, hey, why are you, why are you leaving?

A Oh yeah. I mean, we had plenty of conversations around it. Um, essentially I think we just had different visions for where the business, the way that we were running the business and we had a disagreement and again, it was, I think it was a tough period for both of us. I was really disappointed. And I think the thing that a lot of people forget about is when things like this happen, the business still has to carry on. So you sort of, you're going through this difficult period, but you still have to run the business. You still have to, at that point we, again, probably had 20 or 30 staff. You have to look after them. You have to do what's right for the business. And that was a really tough time for, I think for both of us. Um, and again, at that point, the business we were growing during that period. So we were having to, it's hard enough to run a business that's growing that quickly, but to have that going on at the same time is again, it's really tough.

AI assessment note: “essentially I think we just had different visions for where the business”

Q asking you all this not to say, oh my gosh, how, you know, you were so naive. It's more like I, I, the people listening to this episode, because a lot of them are in their twenties and early thirties, maybe even teenagers listening right now. They're asking this question. They're like, wow, how did he know what to do at that time? Cause I don't know what to do.

A Yeah, I think we were, we were definitely lucky. So at that point, when Steve came on full time, we did, we did give him equity. So I think that that was important to him. And I think that probably gave him that, that level of comfort that you wouldn't get if you didn't have any equity whatsoever. Um, the day rate would have been whatever, whatever it was, but then obviously he moved on to a salary. I remember this. I won't share what the salary was, but I remember he was by far the most well-paid person, not only in the business, but I'd ever heard of. Um, because growing up. Yeah. Like we'd never, I'd never heard of people that were earning that sort of money, but he, he, you know, he deserved it.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I think we were, we were definitely lucky. So at that point”