The Exchanges

Q So how did that turn into you starting this studio?

A Yeah, so, so I took a corporate marketing job and realized it was not for me, and just wanted to feel some fulfillment and started working at the, the Humane Society as a volunteer. And then people said, oh, I saw your photo of that dog. Can you take photos of my dog too? I'll pay you. So, just snowballed. Um, and then my wife and I started taking photos of pets all over the country. We did it for three years. Raised 250,000 dollars for 50 different animal shelters and charities across the country. And then March of 2020 came, and you know what happened there, right? Pandemic. So we had to cancel everything, and instead of being a, you know, a nomad photographer, we decided to open a studio in August of 2020 instead. So we've been here about four years now.

AI assessment note: “instead of being a, you know, a nomad photographer, we decided to open a studio”

Q model in mind because out of college, you decided to become a broker as well. Yeah. And you got a job at the real estate firm, uh, Marcus and Millichap. It's a, it's a national firm. And I guess you worked in Chicago, uh, in their Chicago office for a few years and, and, and did pretty well there. Uh, and then you wound up Moving back to Tennessee, right?

A Yeah. My buddy from college, William, he had sold a deal in Nashville. He was working at the same company in Atlanta and said, you know, Nashville could be an interesting opportunity, and so went to the guy that I was working for, a great guy, and said, you know, I'd like to move to, move to Nashville and open an office. He starts cracking up. He's like, you're out of your mind. It's a terrible idea. You've got good trajectory here, so forth and so on, but, you know, I was, always wanted to do my own thing. I didn't even know what that was, but I always wanted to do my own thing, and so, William and I moved to Nashville, still working for Marcus Milchap. They didn't even know they had an office there, right? Like, we just...

AI assessment note: “William and I moved to Nashville, still working for Marcus Milchap.”

Q Tell me what your pitch was. Were you literally saying, look, we're going after a different wine drinker here. Is that what you were saying or not quite?

A Well, the pitch was really threefold. Number one, we are going after a wine drinker that has not been properly addressed. The second pitch was, interestingly, we're not in the supermarket. This is something you as an independent can have that they don't have in the supermarkets. And then the third thing that we said is, this is a transition. You know, barefoot is a bridge between beer and wine, and if we want to increase the size of Of the wine industry, we have to have inexpensive, easy drinking wine so that people's first experience with wine will be a good one. And they're not going to get introduced to wine by having a 40 dollar, uh, Pinot Noir as their first try. This will increase the amount of business that you have for your upscale wines because now you're going to get more people who try wine at all And they're going to say, oh, this is wine. Gee, I can drink this.

AI assessment note: “Well, the pitch was really threefold. Number one, we are going after a wine drinker”

Q Okay, but then something happens. You get approached by, uh, by someone who will become a key player in the story, this guy Eric, um, Eric Levkovsky, and he owns the printing company that you're working at. Uh, but I guess he, he hears about this website you're doing and, and, and comes to you with an offer. What, what, what, what was it? What happened?

A So after I'd been in school for just under a quarter, he called me up one day, and he had heard about another idea for a website that I'd had, um, that later became known as The Point. And I think his business instincts didn't know what to do with something like policy tree. Um, he got a little bit more excited about the point and he was like, you should drop out of school and come build this company. I'll give you a million bucks in funding to do it. And I'll help you along the way with the resources and whatever you need. So I was like, that sounds pretty good. And, you know, a couple weeks later, I was back up in, um, River West working on, working on the point.

AI assessment note: “I'll give you a million bucks in funding to do it.”

Q Okay, okay, so let's, let's talk about the point. Um, what, what was this idea you had that, that Eric wanted to put a million dollars behind?

A It was designed to solve the problems of collective action. All of these situations where the people want something to be a certain way, but they need a way to organize to actually bring it about and make it happen. And I'd been thinking about, like, consumerist use cases, like, we're all mad that the cable company won't let us get a la carte channels or things like that, but, but also organizing actions for social change. And the idea was that You would determine some kind of a tipping point, hence the name, the point, of participation or funds that would be needed before people would actually commit to the action. So it might be something like, we're all going to switch to a competing telephone company unless you do this once we hit 50,000 members or something like that.

AI assessment note: “It was designed to solve the problems of collective action.”

Q Well, tell me a little bit about your background. What were you, have you been in the spirits business for a long time?

A I've, no, not at all. Um, my background actually is in corporate responsibility and sustainability. Um, I worked for the Walt Disney company for seven years, leading our environmental and science education portfolio across the enterprise. And then I went to a environmental nonprofit in DC. And then in 2019 to start, decided to start my own, uh, company called Do Goodery, where we consult with major corporations like Amazon and Disney to help them be better corporate citizens. Um, and then one of my mentors said, you know, Christiana, You spent your entire career helping companies try to do better. Maybe it's time for you to start your own company so you can model what it looks like to create a responsible company from the very beginning.

AI assessment note: “no, not at all. Um, my background actually is in corporate responsibility and sustainability.”

Q Andy, how did you, what were you doing before you came up with this product? Cause I think you invented this, right?

A Yes, that's correct. Me and my co-founder, Matt Semple, Met in the Navy. Uh, we actually deployed together to the Red Sea in twenty-twenty-one, uh, where we were roommates. So that looked like us and another guy shoved into a little twenty-square-foot room with a crummy stainless steel sink, uh, that saw a lot of action. Uh, you know, you have to shave every day, sometimes twice a day, so that sink was frequently gross. Uh, it was actually on one of those, you know, push-button timeout flossets where you could only run the water for two seconds. So we cut a pencil to length so we could jam it so the water would stay running our whole shave. Anyway, we were, we were shaving in a less than ideal situation, which kind of made us think about ways we could make the shaving process better. And by the end of that deployment, we had an outline for what would eventually become the razor rinser.

AI assessment note: “Me and my co-founder, Matt Semple, Met in the Navy.”

Q So do you think by the time you were a senior, you had kind of abandoned the idea to become like a lawyer or a consultant and get an office job that this was going to be the thing that you were going to pursue?

A So by the time I was a senior, yes. By the time I was a junior, where the business was already firing in all cylinders, I still was very torn. And it tells you just how strong the gravitational pull is towards the more conventional career tracks, uh, Where you've got safe, secure, low risk ways to be very successful. And, and so I actually did an internship at McKinsey, uh, for the summer after my junior year. And I had kind of a perfect split test where I was running the, my business on the side and I got to see, you know, which was I better at, which did I enjoy more? Uh, what did I want to spend the next few years of my life doing?

AI assessment note: “So by the time I was a senior, yes.”

Q All right, so with thirty million dollars, You've got a huge war chest, but the goal is don't worry about profitability, right, because this was the model at the time. Just focus on growth. So what did that mean for you guys?

A Yeah, I think the challenge was we were growing so fast, and then when we raised that money on really advantageous terms, it just vindicated the strategy of grow, grow, grow. And so our approach was let's blow the doors out. We hired a hundred people, Over the course of the next six months, we moved into a 25,000 square foot office. So this is like a over the top, uh, office with mirrors on the ceilings, uh, under the, the floating conference room. Um, you know, everything you'd expect from an overfunded series a startup. Um, we leaned into sort of crazy funnels where we would, you know, if you signed up for a trial membership, we'll give you a free jar of coconut oil.

AI assessment note: “our approach was let's blow the doors out. We hired a hundred people”

Q role of a business is to make money for the business, for its, its employees, uh, For its investors and to provide a great service to consumers, right? And so, um, if you stopped doing these programs, if you stopped carbon neutral shipping, if you stopped by one membership will give one to somebody in need, do you think it would have any impact on your business, your bottom line?

A In the short term, some of these programs cost money, so it might have a positive impact. I think in the medium to long term, it would have a, you know, massively negative impact on the member perception and member loyalty, on our ability to attract, attract great employees who come to thrive first and foremost because they believe in the mission, and on our ability to think long term. Like, that mission is what galvanizes our entire company, and I think it is the reason why members not only Purchase on site, but also evangelize. And I think we've also been really, we tried to be really smart about looking for opportunities to invest in the mission that are not zero sum with the bottom line. Like I said, with the gives memberships, when we donate a membership, that doesn't cost us anything.

AI assessment note: “In the short term, some of these programs cost money, so it might have a positive impact.”

Q Got it. Ok, so you would come back to the U.S. and import them, and then resell them how? You would just go door to door to bike shops?

A Yes, that's right. I knew some of the best stores. And they go, wow, where did you get this? And I go, well, I've got connections. And so then I sold those products. I sold the 1500 dollars worth of product for probably 2000 dollars or 1800, but that wasn't much, right? And so to get more, then I told the bike shops, I said, look, if you pay in advance for the product, I'll give you even a better price. And so I got advance money, bought those products, and with the profit I made, I bought more product and sold those at a higher price, and that was the start. I think the first year, the sales were 64,000 dollars.

AI assessment note: “Yes, that's right. I knew some of the best stores.”

Q New York, and you and Peter are now a couple, and I guess the two of you decide, let's start a business together. Um, tell me a little bit about that sort of realization, because many married couples don't get to that, don't get to that point. They have their own careers. What was it about you and Peter and make building something together that you thought would make sense?

A When Peter left his job, he loved what he did and he wanted, his dream was to have a restaurant, but we were so in sync. We got together, we're both driven and we both were, we wanted to build something for ourselves. And of course we didn't have much money. We didn't have any money. And then coming to an agreement as to what business was, it took months of discussions. And then finally we came up with the idea. We'll flip a coin. If it's heads, It's salon. If it's sales, it is actually a restaurant, and we swore to each other we won't put our hands behind our back, cross our fingers, none of that, be really fully committed, and once we came to that decision, which took quite a while to do it, we flipped a coin, and it was heads, and I, I wasn't good about it. I was so excited, and I totally didn't even pay attention to poor Peter.

AI assessment note: “we were so in sync. We got together, we're both driven”

Q you, which we didn't mention, you also became a mother to two children in a short period of time. You know, I think they're two years or three years apart. And I guess at a certain point, I mean, you and Peter decide you want to raise your family in Connecticut. So what did you do? Did you commute back and forth every day from Connecticut to New York City?

A No, in 91, we ended up taking the direct response company, the, uh, mail order products and the family and move to Connecticut. We needed more space. It was cheaper to find more space in Connecticut warehouse. So, so we ended up getting a farmhouse and we ran the mail order out of the farmhouse. So Peter and the two kids were in Connecticut the whole time. I, in return, stayed in the city for five days and went home on the weekends. So I would get on the train early Tuesday morning, get to New York, stay in New York till Saturday after work, get on a train, and go back to Connecticut. And we did that for almost 16 years.

AI assessment note: “I, in return, stayed in the city for five days and went home on the weekends.”

Q Which is a grind. I mean, especially when you're starting out, it's like, 60, 70 hour Hours a week, right? Just a grind. But if you can stick it out, you can make a lot of money.

A Well, we, we did make a lot of money, um, and it was a grind. You know, there was, DLJ became kind of legendary. There's a book written about how, how difficult the life was as an analyst. You basically didn't get days off, and that, that took its toll, but, you know, I, I have to say, I, that experience was phenomenal. I have tremendous amount of appreciation for that job because it It taught me how to work hard. It taught me how to be accurate and taught me how to get things done and then over the line. But at the same time, I was surrounded by a bunch of folks who had gone to Harvard and Wharton and Michigan and Stanford who were econ majors and were way smarter than me, um, were outperforming me. And I think that began to kind of creep its way into my head that I just was not in the right place. And I think about it a lot, and that's a gift. If you can early on figure out, even if it's what I don't want to do or what I shouldn't do, it's a real gift, and that certainly was that. I, after my, my tenure in that program, I decided to get out of banking, which was a big decision for me, because I'd worked so hard to get the job.

AI assessment note: “Well, we, we did make a lot of money, um, and it was a grind.”

Q So how did, how did this... How did this idea come about?

A Yeah, so this really started about 40 years ago. Uh, when I was little, my grandma lived pretty far away, and she used to get picture books and record herself reading the book onto those old cassette tapes, and then she'd pack it up and send it, and my sister and I would listen on the cassette tape to grandma read us the books. Then, flash forward several decades, my sister had kids of her own, So we pulled out grandma's old tapes, uh, thinking it'd be great for them to hear their great grandma, but if you've tried to listen to those old tapes, they degrade over time, and they were just unusable. So that's when I started thinking about the idea that it'd be great if there was something out there that would, would hold that recording forever.

AI assessment note: “So that's when I started thinking about the idea”

Q you come out of this experience... Losing your flooring business and your marriage, but, but kind of to your point, I mean, it, it, it, I mean, it sort of opens you up to an opportunity to make a, a major life pivot, right? One that is going to affect the entire course of your life, right? I mean, you, you, you basically decide to completely change your career, right?

A Yes. All of that Led me to think to myself, okay, if I'm starting life over, what do I want to do? I'd always wanted to be a chiropractor. My neighbor growing up was the, the chiropractor for the Utah Jazz, Craig Buehler, an amazing man, and I'd watch him work on Karl Malone and John Stockton with his hands, and I'd see him do these things, and I thought, I, I wanna do that. So I thought, you know what? I'm gonna be a chiropractor. In the meantime, my brother, my second youngest brother, became a chiropractor and had a successful practice. So I'm sitting in his practice, I'm like, his name's Kirk, I'm like, bro, this is awesome, like, could I do this? He said, yeah, you, you may have to do some science things, But you could probably fast track this and get done in three and a half, four years.

AI assessment note: “Yes. All of that Led me to think to myself, okay, if I'm”

Q Yeah. All right. So what did you do with these 250 jigsaw? Did you, did you start to retrofit them with, with, you know, these like hard foam, you know, cat toys?

A Yeah. So I went to Home Depot and I bought 250 three inch bolts. Then I went to the rivet section at Home Depot and I bought these little screw on rivets that fit that bolt. And then I went to the fence post cap Section in Home Depot, and I bought a bunch of fence post caps, and I measured a ball, a foam toy ball, and it fit inside of that upside down fence post cap. I'd, I'd literally put super glue around it, and I'd stick the ball in there after I put a rivet in it. I had a guy out in the valley in LA powder coat them so they were black, and he welded them into the piece of this jigsaw, and then I would put them back together, and I would sell one jigsaw, retrofitted, with two of those ball attachments that I made.

AI assessment note: “I went to Home Depot and I bought 250 three inch bolts.”

Q Okay, what is your question for Pete, Jennifer?

A My question is really, we're sort of at a crossroads now these days because we've established several brick-and-mortar locations. We are making upwards of 8000 sourdough bagels a week. We participate in a dozen farmers markets. We have a bunch of different products now, almost like a brand, an accidental brand that we call Badass. We have It's 12 cream cheeses, spreads, they're all like farm to bagel, we support the local farmers in our area, and I'm just wondering, I mean, I have franchise companies calling me, I have investors asking me, do I want money? At this point, I'm really happy being a bagel slinger, I'm always knee deep in dough, it's like super fun, everyone's happy, everybody loves the bagels. But like, how do I know what direction to go in? Do I want to put all my eggs in the consumer product goods basket? Do I want to open more brick and mortars?

AI assessment note: “how do I know what direction to go in?”

Q Yeah. Um, as you got older and, and went to high school, did you end up kind of like finding a group of people, uh, kids that, that you were comfortable with or, or not, not really?

A Yeah. So in high school, as I got older, I always felt like an outcast being the only Indian kid in a very racially divided school. I didn't have a lot of friends and because my parents weren't around, They'd give me money to make up for not being able to give me their time. So I did discover there was one way to get kids to want to hang out with me. And that was by me offering to buy them things. And I noticed when I was paying for things like lunch or snacks or arcade games, a lot of people wanted to be my friend. And I didn't realize this until My adult years, but I associated money with love.

AI assessment note: “I always felt like an outcast being the only Indian kid”

Q What were you gonna, they were gonna be inspirational, but where were you gonna get your ideas from? Like, how are you coming up with things to say?

A My ideas initially started off just inspired by my own life experience. So if you look at my earlier videos, it was more so messages that I needed to tell my younger self. My next iteration was I realized instead of just giving life advice, if I told a story and gave a moral at the end of it, Then those videos started performing a little better. So instead of getting a hundred views, maybe they would get to 500 views. And since I was telling original stories, I couldn't just rely on stock footage. I now had these cartoons that I would pay some international company around 200 dollars or so to develop. So very low budget animations. And then I would tell voiceover Over the cartoon.

AI assessment note: “My ideas initially started off just inspired by my own life experience.”

Q Yeah, so, so tell me what, what happened? Like, what were you doing as a, as a real estate developer that got you into trouble?

A Uh, so property management, that came easy to me, but construction, that was a lot more complex, and I quickly found out that construction projects take a long time to finish, and they were very expensive, so I could only take on a certain amount of projects at once. But I always wanted to do things quickly. Uh, so that's why I was really excited when I found out about this real estate grant program that the city of Oakland had, where you could get a 50% reimbursement if you fixed up properties that were in certain rehabilitation areas. So I decided to take on multiple renovation projects at the same time. And what I didn't expect was how long of a time it would take for the city to issue these grant reimbursements. It turned out the money could take anywhere from one or two years to come in after all the work was completed and all the money was paid. So I found myself in this financial pinch. I took on too many projects at once that I couldn't afford. Come back to haunt me. I decided to take some shortcuts on my grant application. I changed the dates on my paperwork to make it seem like the projects had been completed and contractors had been paid sooner than they were in order to start the reimbursement process faster. Faster.

AI assessment note: “I decided to take some shortcuts on my grant application. I changed the dates”

Q Yeah, tell me how you, I've seen your first video, um, or maybe one of your first videos, but, but you, you didn't start with baking videos right away, right?

A No, I started vlogging. At the time, vloggers were very, that was kind of the norm. So I would film going to a flight museum, or going to a flight lesson, or whatever I was doing that day, I, and then one day I was baking. Uh, one day I was baking these cute cakes for an E-III party we were hosting at our house with a bunch of gamers, and And I thought, well, let's film it. And that was basically my first Nerdy Nummies. And that was the first time the online community was like, we love this. Like, no geeky baking show exists on television, online. It just, please do more of this. And so I said, sure.

AI assessment note: “No, I started vlogging. At the time, vloggers were very, that was kind of the norm.”

Q So how did it end? I mean, how, what happened to knock you out of it?

A I was living with a boyfriend at the time who, in the beginning, knew that I used drugs but did not realize the extent because, again, I hid that from him and I was highly functional. But the last six months of our relationship, it was pretty obvious that I was seriously addicted and unable to control my use and my behavior at home started to become very erratic. And there was just one night where he said to me, I can't do this anymore. I can't watch you do this anymore. To yourself anymore. So if you want to go to rehab, I will call right now. I will find you a bed. I will drive you and I'll be there for you. And if you can't do that tonight, I'm, I'm leaving. I can't do this. And I just, I had a moment of clarity. And I said to him in that moment before I could lose my nerve, I will go. And he called and he found me a bed in the first rehab facility he called, which is incredible. And an hour later, I was tucked into rehab.

AI assessment note: “And an hour later, I was tucked into rehab.”

Q Wow, and was that hard? I mean, How did you, was it complicated? Was it expensive? I mean, I guess Manchester, New Hampshire, maybe to find and rent a place, maybe not, not the same as like doing it in Boston.

A Okay. Well, I did it in such a way that I didn't have to do any of that because I knew that that was outside of my capability. I had this full-time job that was really important. What I did was I approached my local powerlifting gym and I said to them, Hey, I want to open a CrossFit affiliate, but I'm only going to train people on the weekends and maybe one night a week. Can I use your space for that and just give you a small amount of money? And they literally said to me, oh, you can do that for free. Don't worry about it. Just bring your clients in, you know, occasionally maybe mention us, give us like a shout out. So I opened a part-time CrossFit affiliate with maybe 10 or 12 clients.

AI assessment note: “I did it in such a way that I didn't have to do any of that”

Q How did you decide, I mean, initially charging 500 bucks for, you know, the use of your logo is not, um, you're not going to build a business around that, but how did you start to think about the value of that logo on, on a brand?

A You know, I always had a hard time. I still, to this day, sometimes have a hard time thinking of Whole 30 as anything other than this scrappy, word of mouth, little do-it-yourself brand, and so I really undercharged for so many years for some of these licenses. Um, in 20, I think 2018, we hired an in-house attorney, somebody to run our licensing program, and she was the one To take a look at all of our contracts and all of our deals and say, y'all are undercharging, like massively. And she was the one who created our new contracts and set our new pricing structure. And so from that point on, licensing became a much bigger part of our revenue stream. And we really did start charging what we were worth, but we spent a lot of years just getting brands on board because adoption was really important.

AI assessment note: “she was the one who created our new contracts and set our new pricing structure.”

Q Right. I mean, on that point, I think I think around this time you start to do promotions with some some pretty big retailers like Whole Foods, right?

A Yeah. We had, you know, as you mentioned, Whole Foods in the Rocky Mountain region did this big Whole 30 Approved promotion, so for a period of three months when you went into their store, you saw Whole 30 Approved logos on everything, these little shelf tags that would call out our Whole 30 Approved partners. I'll never forget the time that one of our brands was trying to get into Whole Foods, and they had a meeting, and Whole Foods said to them, we would love to have you in Would you put the Whole 30 Approved logo on the front of your bottle? Move it from the back of the bottle to the front? And that was the point where I thought, okay, it felt like we were a pretty established brand by that point in 2017.

AI assessment note: “Whole Foods in the Rocky Mountain region did this big Whole 30 Approved promotion”

Q So as you were talking about Whole 30, and it was gaining more traction, it was changing, right? It wasn't like this fixed thing. I mean, over the life of Whole 30, What was sort of restricted and what's not has changed.

A Very much so. You know, in the earliest iteration, we essentially took a paleo framework and put it into an elimination diet format. But very quickly, in 2010, in 2011, we started recruiting the help of scientists and medical doctors and psychiatrists and PhDs to really help us dive into the research Behind it. So that we weren't being dogmatic. You know, the earliest iteration of the whole thirties said no white potatoes because Lauren Cordain said no white potatoes. And then we do some research and we do some digging and we're like, well, that's dumb. Potatoes are whole real nutrient dense food. Like, of course you can have potatoes on the whole thirties. So that was the first rule change we made.

AI assessment note: “Very much so... So that was the first rule change we made.”

Q a huge impact on growth, right? But, you know, sometimes as humans, we get stuck, right? We need help. Um, and in the second part of your book, you, you really dive deep into this idea of teaching in order to learn, and then also enlisting other people for help rather than just trying to master something alone, right? Can you, can you tell me a bit more about that?

A All right, so the, the, one of my favorite findings in psychology is, um, It comes out of birth order research. One finding that's pretty robust is that firstborns slightly outscore their younger siblings on IQ tests. As a firstborn, I was delighted by this evidence. My sister did not like it so much. So we know that's not a genetic advantage. What is it that birth order is doing? It turns out that firstborns spend more time teaching their younger siblings things, and that experience of teaching makes them better students. It's called the tutor effect. And one of the ways we know it is, if you have more younger siblings, you get to do more teaching, and you get a little bit more of an IQ edge. So, I think the lesson here is that one of the best ways to learn something really is to teach it. You remember it better once you've had to retrieve it, and you also understand it better once you've had to explain it.

AI assessment note: “one of the best ways to learn something really is to teach it.”

Q Well, just tell me about the paleo diet for a moment. I know it. I've been on it myself. But how did you get into, like, I need to change my diet, and I want to try this?

A So after my 2005 experience with producing the TV show and being under an incredible amount of stress and having Horrible gastric issues, IBS, which had been with me since I was 14, but now I'm 47 and it's even getting worse, or whatever age I was. I was writing a lot about grains, and I started to think maybe grains are kind of not good for your health. They're, maybe humans are not evolved to handle the tightly wound proteins that are in grains, the gluten, the gliadins, the, the zines, all of these proteins that are in corn and wheat, so on. So, uh, my wife, just one day, she's like, Mark, you're writing about all this stuff about how bad grains are. Why don't you just do 30 days of not, not being on grains? And I did, and it transformed my life. My IBS went away, my gastroesophageal reflux went away, and it was like a light bulb went on.

AI assessment note: “my wife, just one day, she's like, Mark... Why don't you just do 30 days”

Q But you also were trying to figure out, because I think you wanted to make a bunch of different products, right, from the get-go. So who did you bring on to help you do this? Like, did you find a chef? Did you find, like, well, how did you even start?

A So in 2000, early 2014, I had a friend in San Diego who was a paleo chef, he was known as a paleo chef, and so I brought him on as an R&D consultant, and I hired his wife to manage the business for the year with the intent of arriving at a suite of products. I wanted a couple of salad dressings, I wanted a mayonnaise, I wanted a ketchup, I wanted a barbecue sauce, And I wanted to enter the marketplace with a suite of products. So I actually not only hired them, I gave them a tiny piece of equity. And at the same time, I went out and I found a person who had been in the marketing department of a sparkling probiotics company called Kavita. I hired her on an hourly basis, very part-time.

AI assessment note: “I had a friend in San Diego who was a paleo chef... brought him on”