Sep 9, 2019 · 1h 6m · how-i-built-this
Dippin' Dots: Curt Jones
0:00 / 0:00
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Guy Raz chronicles the journey of Dippin' Dots founder Curt Jones, exploring how he applied cryogenic microbiology to create a novel frozen treat, scaled it into a multimillion-dollar global phenomenon, and ultimately lost his company amidst crippling patent litigation and the 2008 financial crisis.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 33.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 2.7 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 0.4 Guy pushing back 0.4
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 37:25 Jones defends IP risk and philosophy of trust
When Guy Raz suggests it was dangerously naive to sell production machinery without safeguarding IP, Jones firmly stands his ground, arguing that calculated risk and trust are essential to scaling when undercapitalized.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 37:00 Raz challenges naive handling of proprietary equipment IPGuy Raz directly challenges Jones on giving away the core value of his invention by selling a Dippin' Dots manufacturing machine to external parties without patent protections.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 15:40 The food science of butterfat, overrun, and cryogenic freezingCurt Jones provides a clear technical breakdown of how commercial ice cream manufactures smooth texture using air overrun or high butterfat, explaining how cryogenic freezing achieves density and smoothness without either.
Guy holds their own ▶ 46:50 Raz points out the legal reality of patent litigationGuy Raz cuts straight to the core truth of multi-year litigation, asserting that regardless of original grievances, the only true winners in extended patent trials are the lawyers.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Announcements for How I Built This Live Events | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Introductory monologue and event announcements by Guy Raz setting up the narrative arc of Dippin' Dots and Curt Jones's cautionary tale. | |
| Farm Upbringing, Early Work Ethic, and Micro-Enterprises | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Guy Raz asks open biographical questions about Jones's rural upbringing and farm chores, which Jones recounts collaboratively. | |
| Cryogenic Science and Probiotic Pellets at Alltech | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Jones educates Raz on the microbiology of flash-freezing bacteria cultures into pellets using liquid nitrogen to prevent ice crystals from piercing cell walls, correcting Raz's lava analogy by comparing nitrogen handling to boiling water. | |
| The First Lab Experiments with Flash-Frozen Ice Cream | 2 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Jones details his first lab experiments dripping ice cream base into liquid nitrogen and warning about frostbite hazards from eating it immediately. | |
| The Science of Pelletized Ice Cream and the Decision to Leap | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Jones provides deep industry domain knowledge on how butterfat and overrun (air) affect ice crystal perception in conventional ice cream versus cryogenic pelletization. | |
| Contractor Deception and Lexington Retail Construction Struggles | 3 | 2 | 0 | 1 | Jones recounts opening their first Lexington retail location, being defrauded by a general contractor, and adapting product presentation after initial awkward customer interactions. | |
| The Opryland Pivot and Family Farm Collateral | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Raz prompts Jones through the near-collapse of the business at Opryland, where staffing bottlenecks and bad placement almost doomed them before a standalone kiosk pivot. | |
| Mid-Episode Interlude and Upcoming Challenges Teaser | 4 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Raz pushes back on Jones's decision to sell manufacturing machinery directly to third parties without strict IP protection, which Jones defends as a necessary cash flow risk and an earnest philosophy of trust. | |
| Establishing Franchises and Reaching Peak Revenue | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Raz and Jones discuss franchising logistics, auditing cash revenues at state fairs, and building royalties directly into wholesale bag margins. | |
| The Mini Melts Patent Litigation Nightmare | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Jones explains the devastating patent infringement lawsuit against Mini Melts (Dots of Fun) that backfired due to an inequitable conduct finding, costing millions in opponent legal fees. | |
| The 2008 Economic Crash and Bank Loan Default | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Jones recounts the combination of soaring commodity prices (milk, gas, liquid nitrogen) and the sudden freeze in bank credit during the 2008 financial crisis. | |
| Chapter 11 Bankruptcy and Loss of Company Control | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Jones shares the difficult timeline of Chapter 11 bankruptcy filing, restructuring under distress, and eventually being pushed out of Dippin' Dots entirely by the Fischer group after a three-year transitional contract. | |
| Rebuilding with 40 Below Joe and Lifelong Partnerships | 3 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Jones reflects on starting over with 40 Below Joe cryogenic coffee beads, remaining optimistic despite past losses and acknowledging the role of perseverance and family support. | |
| How You Built That: Bohana Popped Water Lily Seeds | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | In the 'How You Built That' segment, guest Nadine Habayeb explains launching Bohana popped water lily seeds to the US market. |
Statements from this episode (15)
Curt Jones: Flash-freezing bacteria creates smaller ice crystals, preserving cell viability
“If you freeze that very fast, those ice crystals are smaller, so if you freeze the bacteria cells quickly, You get tiny ice crystals, and then there's a good chance that those cells can come back to life.”
Curt Jones: Dribbling cultures into liquid nitrogen creates distinct frozen pellets
“I found that you could pour the nitrogen into the cultures and freeze a big, big blob, or you could pour the cultures into the nitrogen and freeze a big blob, but I found that if you dribbled it in a little at a time, That you could actually form pellets.”
Curt Jones: Dippin' Dots began with lab pipette and liquid nitrogen
“So we grabbed about a, I think it was a little quart mason jar of the mix, and drove out to the lab, and I pulled out probably about a half a gallon of liquid nitrogen into a cylinder, and I took a pipette, and I took some of the ice cream mix, and I dropped i…”
Jones: Having $100K in savings might have deterred starting Dippin' Dots
“I sometimes say if we'd had a 100,000 dollars in the bank, we might not have wanted to risk it, but I felt like if it didn't work, I was still young enough that I could probably still get a job somewhere.”
Jones: Dippin' Dots was funded with $30K to $40K in credit card debt
“Yeah, I mean, we had at one point, I think we had between 30 and 40,000 dollars in credit card debt with, you know, with a business that wasn't making money, so we were We were struggling, you know, well, the first few years, we struggled quite a bit.”
Curt Jones: Dippin' Dots did around $52k in sales in first 9 months
“I think our total sales for that whole nine month period was like 52,000 dollars. And of course we had more than 52,000 dollars in expense. I can assure you.”
Jones: Opryland Dippin' Dots sold two gallons daily against 100-gallon projections
“And so these hundred gallons a day projections ended up being more like two gallons a day or something like that.”
Jones: Dippin' Dots and Opryland co-created the modern theme park kiosk format
“So this is when we kind of jointly came up with the kiosk concept, which you see in many theme parks today. It's a little standalone ice cream stand where someone stands behind it and sells it.”
Curt Jones: Dippin' Dots did $350k in Opryland sales in 1991
“Well, it would have been 1991 that we would have started getting some actual income from Opryland. I think that first year we ended up doing 350,000 dollars in sales.”
Jones: Dippin' Dots peaked at $47 million sales in 2006
“At the peak that would have been 2006. We did 40, almost forty seven million in sales. I think it was right at forty seven million.”
Curt Jones: Dippin' Dots sued Mini Melts for $16M in patent dispute
“We were suing him for, I think, around sixteen million dollars. Well, he countersued us for ten million dollars, and ours was based on infringement, his was based on antitrust, because he, one of the defenses you have if you're being sued for patent infringeme…”
Curt Jones: Dippin' Dots spent over $10M and lost its core patent
“So we ended up having to come up with basically four million dollars At the end of this lawsuit, so we had spent six million, we ended up spending four on, on them. Wow. And I had to spend an additional 750,000 dollars to appeal this decision to get my name cl…”
Curt Jones: Would fight $10M patent lawsuit again rather than settle
“What would you do different if you know, if you look back now, and I suppose the correct answer is like, well, I would have settled, and then it wouldn't have cost me ten million dollars, but my answer is that I probably would do the same thing again, because …”
Jones: Dippin' Dots Swung From $3M Profit to Loss in 2007
“Was the fact that milk prices had gone up 34% that year. Gas prices started going up a lot between 2006 and 2007. And then our liquid nitrogen cost went up like 10%. And so all of a sudden, on, on almost the same sales, we had went from like a net of two or th…”