Feb 3, 2020 · 1h 14m · how-i-built-this
M.M.LaFleur: Sarah LaFleur
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This, Sarah LaFleur recounts how her frustration with rigid, impractical corporate clothing led her to co-found M.M.LaFleur, scaling it into a multimillion-dollar brand through functional design, bootstrapping resilience, and the innovative Bento Box styling model.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 30.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.0 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 1.4 Guy pushing back 1.8
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 49:19 Sarah rejects the 'niche business' VC framing
Sarah forcefully rejects the condescending label given by venture capitalists, backing her argument with hard demographic and spending statistics.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 28:29 Guy presses on why Miyako would joinGuy incredulously challenges how Sarah, with zero fashion experience and minimal seed money at a hot desk, convinced a top Zac Posen designer to sign on.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 30:45 The pattern maker misunderstandingSarah reveals her total naivety about garment manufacturing, recalling how she told Miyako they wouldn't need a pattern maker because they weren't doing prints.
Guy holds their own ▶ 59:39 Guy questions value proposition against fast fashionGuy confronts Sarah on her premium price points, pressing on why customers would pay over $200 for a dress instead of buying from Zara or H&M.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Paradox of Choice and Corporate Workwear | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Guy Raz provides an introductory solo monologue framing the episode through Barry Schwartz's 'The Paradox of Choice' and introducing Sarah LaFleur's background. Because this is a scripted host monologue with no guest interaction, all host dynamic and pushback scores are zero. | |
| Biracial Identity and Maternal Inspiration | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Guy asks standard biographical questions about Sarah's upbringing in Japan and her mother's career. Sarah educates Guy on cultural terminology in Japan around biracial identity ('half' vs 'double') and diplomat spousal expectations. | |
| Refugee Camp Realities and Management Consulting | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy shares contextual insights on how many startup founders come out of management consulting firms like Bain. Sarah reflects on her eye-opening experience volunteering in a Zambian refugee camp and transitioning to corporate consulting. | |
| Nonprofit Frustration and Private Equity Burnout | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Sarah candidly details her mismatch with nonprofit diplomacy and the hyper-masculine culture at Starwood Capital, which led to a breakdown. Guy probes into the four-month departure timeline, clarifying the exact year when Sarah misstates it. | |
| Conceptualizing M.M.LaFleur and Securing Seed Capital | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Guy questions whether Sarah's idea was serious or just a passive thought, prompting Sarah to explain how she pushed forward by signing a WeWork lease and securing $70k in initial capital despite severe personal doubt. | |
| Recruiting Designer Miyako Nakamura | 4 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Guy repeatedly presses on why a top Zac Posen designer would join a novice with no funding. Sarah explains their shared connection and humorously admits her extreme lack of industry knowledge, mistaking a pattern maker for someone making prints. | |
| Designing the Line and Manufacturing in Manhattan | 4 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Sarah details luxury garment fit tests and the operational reality of Manhattan's Garment District. Guy guides the discussion on workplace confidence while Sarah explains the technical intricacies of garment fittings. | |
| Trunk Shows and Enlisting Co-Founder Narie | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy asks about early trunk show operations and bringing on Narie. Sarah describes the physical hustle of lugging rolls of fabric, word-of-mouth growth among corporate women, and tutoring SATs to survive without a salary. | |
| The E-Commerce Launch and Early Distribution Struggles | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy points out that generating revenue differs from turning a profit and notes the difficulty of running e-commerce without marketing. Sarah reflects on her naive assumptions about direct-to-consumer sales during the 2013 site launch. | |
| Negative Balances and Angel Backing from Bob Deutsch | 5 | 6 | 3 | 2 | Sarah forcefully dismantles VC dismissals of working women's fashion as a 'niche business,' citing the 30-million-person, $100B+ market size and detailing how Bob Deutsch organized a crucial $400k angel round. | |
| The Bento Box Pivot and Exponential Sales Growth | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy explores the turning point of Bento Boxes and compares it to other box subscription models like Trunk Club. Sarah clarifies that Bento was designed to overcome online decision paralysis and eliminate risk for the customer. | |
| Market Expansion, Sustainable Growth, and Reflections | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Guy challenges Sarah on the high price points compared to fast fashion alternatives like Zara. Sarah explains the practical luxury features and later attributes her long-term success predominantly to luck and timing. | |
| How You Built That: Metaphor Dice | 3 | 2 | 1 | 1 | In the 'How You Built That' segment, Guy interviews Taylor Mali about inventing Metaphor Dice. Mali demonstrates how the dice work and shares sales metrics in a straightforward, lighthearted exchange. |
Statements from this episode (19)
LaFleur: Minorities in Japan Change Surnames to Signal Japanese Identity
“You know in Japan, your last name really signifies whether you are Japanese or not, so much so that Korean Japanese people or Chinese Japanese people, they will change their last name to signify that they are truly Japanese.”
LaFleur: Starwood Capital had only two female investment professionals
“I was one of two female investment professionals, I think, out of dozens, if not hundreds.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur registered in Delaware in June 2011 at WeWork
“I signed for a WeWork office starting May one, back when WeWork was still very small. I think they had, like, two buildings in New York. And then I officially registered as a LLC June one in Delaware.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur launched with $70,000 in total initial capital
“Yep, so I started with 70,000 dollars.”
LaFleur bought and returned $20,000 in dresses to show target aesthetic
“I'm embarrassed to say that I once bought twenty-some-what-odd thousand dollars of clothing from a luxury department store, which really only amounted to, like, seven pieces because each one was so expensive. Because I wanted to show Miyako the kind of clothes…”
LaFleur: Luxury brands fit garments multiple times, cheap brands skip fittings
“Luxury brands can afford to do three or four fittings to really perfect the fit, whereas lower priced brands, they might be fitting it once, or maybe never. They might just go straight to production.”
LaFleur: Garment factories reject unknown designers because most fail within a year
“Most factories are not willing to work with a no-name because I mean, small designers come and go, and so I didn't realize, like, I was like, well, I'm willing to pay you money, and they were like, it doesn't matter if you're willing to pay us money, like, we …”
LaFleur: Women discover workwear through peer word-of-mouth, not fashion magazines
“And I think one thing I didn't quite realize, you know, women, they're not looking to fashion magazines to
Tell them what to wear to work.
They're turning to each other.
They're asking each other, where'd you get that?
Where'd you shop for that?”
LaFleur uses referral outs in investor pitches to ease early-stage asks
“One phrase that I developed, which I started using in all of my emails, is, if you or anyone you know might be interested, please let me know. I think the you or anyone else you know gave the other person an elegant out if they weren't interested.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur raised $400,000 over nine months from friends and family
“Contrary to, you know, what we thought we wanted to do, which was like, I don't know, a million or two million, we raised 400,000 dollars, and it took me nine months.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur's bank account reached negative $2,000 in 2014
“Not only did we run out, it actually went into the negatives. Our bank account, I think, at one point said, like, -2000 or something, and I didn't know you could draw down beyond zero, so that was a wake-up call, and I had to go out and fundraise again.”
LaFleur: Corporate women's workwear is a $100B to $120B market
“You know, there are thirty million women, age 25 to 45, who work in some sort of corporate environment, and these women spend on average, for women making 75 K and up, 4000 dollars a year on clothes to wear to work, and so that's roughly a hundred to a hundred…”
LaFleur: Advising cash-strapped founders to be picky about investors is unhelpful
“Telling other entrepreneurs, like, don't just take anyone's money, or be really careful who you take money from. That's all well and good when you've got cash in the bank. When you don't it's really unhelpful advice, because it's true, you really want to make …”
M.M.LaFleur: Pilot Bento Box generated more weekly revenue than any prior month
“18% of customers responded to that email saying, sure, send me something... And we ended up sending those 180 boxes out and making more money in that one week than we ever had in any month leading up to it.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur tripled revenue month-over-month following October 2014 Bento Box launch
“We launched it into official form October, 20 14. We suddenly went from not being able to pay rent to tripling our revenue, you know, oftentimes, month over month.”
LaFleur: M.M.LaFleur reached $8 million in 2014 revenue, mostly in Q4
“Yeah, it was eight million, but we had made more than half of that in the last 12 weeks of the year.”
Physical try-ons overcome e-commerce purchase paralysis for premium apparel pricing
“And I think what Bento did, in many ways, is it took that decision paralysis away, because we were getting our products into our customers' hands, and only once they tried it on were they really understanding why these pants cost a 195 dollars”
LaFleur: Early VC rejection preserves founder equity and product vision
“I got to hold on to a lot more of my company because we couldn't raise for a while, but the result was you know, we were, I think, in a position where we could better absorb those financial resources, so there wasn't risk of other investors coming on and sayin…”