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Sep 5, 2020 · 19m · how-i-built-this

How I Built Resilience: Sandra Oh Lin of KiwiCo

Sandra Oh Lin · 12m spoken Guy Raz · 4m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of How I Built This: Resilience Edition, host Guy Raz interviews KiwiCo founder and CEO Sandra Oh Lin about creating hands-on STEAM subscription boxes, scaling operations through pandemic-driven demand, and fostering creative confidence and educational equity in children.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 28% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 2.2 Guest teaching 2.3 Guest disagreement 0.2 Guy pushing back 0.5
05100:0010:002:21–7:28 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Founding KiwiCo and the Subscription Business Model Raz engages with Lin on business mechanics and draws parallels to other edtech founders he interviewed, like Sal Khan and the CEO of Dreambox. Lin explains KiwiCo's subscription economics, early pandemic pivots, and supply chain adjustments.7:28–9:32 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Product Development and Remote Child Testing Raz relays an audience question about testing and development. Lin details how their engineering team adapts child testing remotely using distributed 3D printers and multi-angle video calls.9:33–11:53 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Mid-Show Break and Episode Teaser Following the mid-show break, Raz passes along audience questions on diversity and cultural relevance in STEM. Lin outlines universal design and addressing socioeconomic learning gaps.11:54–14:30 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Building Camp KiwiCo and Pandemic Resources Raz inquires about Camp KiwiCo and presses gently on whether the free virtual offering was just a crisis-driven reaction or a sustainable core long-term strategy. Lin affirms its lasting impact on their content approach.14:31–16:43 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Fostering Curiosity and the Future of Schooling Raz asks Lin for actionable parenting advice and her outlook on the future of schooling post-pandemic. Lin discusses leveraging real-world curiosity and the lasting integration of home educators.16:43–18:34 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Entrepreneurial Advice on Market Validation Raz invites advice for aspiring entrepreneurs transitioning hobbies into ventures. Lin shares tactical guidance on verifying that market demand extends beyond an isolated sample size.2:21–7:28 · Guest teaching 2/10 Founding KiwiCo and the Subscription Business Model Raz engages with Lin on business mechanics and draws parallels to other edtech founders he interviewed, like Sal Khan and the CEO of Dreambox. Lin explains KiwiCo's subscription economics, early pandemic pivots, and supply chain adjustments.7:28–9:32 · Guest teaching 4/10 Product Development and Remote Child Testing Raz relays an audience question about testing and development. Lin details how their engineering team adapts child testing remotely using distributed 3D printers and multi-angle video calls.9:33–11:53 · Guest teaching 2/10 Mid-Show Break and Episode Teaser Following the mid-show break, Raz passes along audience questions on diversity and cultural relevance in STEM. Lin outlines universal design and addressing socioeconomic learning gaps.11:54–14:30 · Guest teaching 1/10 Building Camp KiwiCo and Pandemic Resources Raz inquires about Camp KiwiCo and presses gently on whether the free virtual offering was just a crisis-driven reaction or a sustainable core long-term strategy. Lin affirms its lasting impact on their content approach.14:31–16:43 · Guest teaching 2/10 Fostering Curiosity and the Future of Schooling Raz asks Lin for actionable parenting advice and her outlook on the future of schooling post-pandemic. Lin discusses leveraging real-world curiosity and the lasting integration of home educators.16:43–18:34 · Guest teaching 3/10 Entrepreneurial Advice on Market Validation Raz invites advice for aspiring entrepreneurs transitioning hobbies into ventures. Lin shares tactical guidance on verifying that market demand extends beyond an isolated sample size.2:21–7:28 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Founding KiwiCo and the Subscription Business Model Raz engages with Lin on business mechanics and draws parallels to other edtech founders he interviewed, like Sal Khan and the CEO of Dreambox. Lin explains KiwiCo's subscription economics, early pandemic pivots, and supply chain adjustments.7:28–9:32 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Product Development and Remote Child Testing Raz relays an audience question about testing and development. Lin details how their engineering team adapts child testing remotely using distributed 3D printers and multi-angle video calls.9:33–11:53 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mid-Show Break and Episode Teaser Following the mid-show break, Raz passes along audience questions on diversity and cultural relevance in STEM. Lin outlines universal design and addressing socioeconomic learning gaps.11:54–14:30 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Building Camp KiwiCo and Pandemic Resources Raz inquires about Camp KiwiCo and presses gently on whether the free virtual offering was just a crisis-driven reaction or a sustainable core long-term strategy. Lin affirms its lasting impact on their content approach.14:31–16:43 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Fostering Curiosity and the Future of Schooling Raz asks Lin for actionable parenting advice and her outlook on the future of schooling post-pandemic. Lin discusses leveraging real-world curiosity and the lasting integration of home educators.16:43–18:34 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Entrepreneurial Advice on Market Validation Raz invites advice for aspiring entrepreneurs transitioning hobbies into ventures. Lin shares tactical guidance on verifying that market demand extends beyond an isolated sample size.2:21–7:28 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Founding KiwiCo and the Subscription Business Model Raz engages with Lin on business mechanics and draws parallels to other edtech founders he interviewed, like Sal Khan and the CEO of Dreambox. Lin explains KiwiCo's subscription economics, early pandemic pivots, and supply chain adjustments.7:28–9:32 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Product Development and Remote Child Testing Raz relays an audience question about testing and development. Lin details how their engineering team adapts child testing remotely using distributed 3D printers and multi-angle video calls.9:33–11:53 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Mid-Show Break and Episode Teaser Following the mid-show break, Raz passes along audience questions on diversity and cultural relevance in STEM. Lin outlines universal design and addressing socioeconomic learning gaps.11:54–14:30 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Building Camp KiwiCo and Pandemic Resources Raz inquires about Camp KiwiCo and presses gently on whether the free virtual offering was just a crisis-driven reaction or a sustainable core long-term strategy. Lin affirms its lasting impact on their content approach.14:31–16:43 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Fostering Curiosity and the Future of Schooling Raz asks Lin for actionable parenting advice and her outlook on the future of schooling post-pandemic. Lin discusses leveraging real-world curiosity and the lasting integration of home educators.16:43–18:34 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Entrepreneurial Advice on Market Validation Raz invites advice for aspiring entrepreneurs transitioning hobbies into ventures. Lin shares tactical guidance on verifying that market demand extends beyond an isolated sample size.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 40% · guest 60%0:00 · Guy 40% · guest 60%3:00 · Guy 14.4% · guest 85.6%3:00 · Guy 14.4% · guest 85.6%6:00 · Guy 17.5% · guest 82.5%6:00 · Guy 17.5% · guest 82.5%9:00 · Guy 33.5% · guest 66.5%9:00 · Guy 33.5% · guest 66.5%12:00 · Guy 31.4% · guest 68.6%12:00 · Guy 31.4% · guest 68.6%15:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%15:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%18:00 · Guy 54.3% · guest 45.7%18:00 · Guy 54.3% · guest 45.7%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:15 Lin dismantles hobbyist validation assumptions

In a very collaborative interview, Lin offers her firmest counterpoint by warning entrepreneurs not to mistake isolated praise from friends for real, scalable market demand.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 13:33 Raz questions long-term viability of pandemic initiatives

Raz challenges whether the rapid launch of free digital camps was merely a reactive stopgap of necessity rather than a well-thought-out core business strategy.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 8:35 Lin educates on remote observational product testing

Lin explains the counterintuitive nuance of testing products with children, noting young kids cannot verbally explain user-friction, requiring specialized multi-angle video observation.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 5:53 Raz corroborates surge with Khan Academy and Dreambox data

Raz validates and contextualises KiwiCo's massive order surge by citing recent data from his direct conversations with other education platform founders.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Founding KiwiCo and the Subscription Business Model 4211 Raz engages with Lin on business mechanics and draws parallels to other edtech founders he interviewed, like Sal Khan and the CEO of Dreambox. Lin explains KiwiCo's subscription economics, early pandemic pivots, and supply chain adjustments.
Product Development and Remote Child Testing 1400 Raz relays an audience question about testing and development. Lin details how their engineering team adapts child testing remotely using distributed 3D printers and multi-angle video calls.
Mid-Show Break and Episode Teaser 1200 Following the mid-show break, Raz passes along audience questions on diversity and cultural relevance in STEM. Lin outlines universal design and addressing socioeconomic learning gaps.
Building Camp KiwiCo and Pandemic Resources 3102 Raz inquires about Camp KiwiCo and presses gently on whether the free virtual offering was just a crisis-driven reaction or a sustainable core long-term strategy. Lin affirms its lasting impact on their content approach.
Fostering Curiosity and the Future of Schooling 2200 Raz asks Lin for actionable parenting advice and her outlook on the future of schooling post-pandemic. Lin discusses leveraging real-world curiosity and the lasting integration of home educators.
Entrepreneurial Advice on Market Validation 2300 Raz invites advice for aspiring entrepreneurs transitioning hobbies into ventures. Lin shares tactical guidance on verifying that market demand extends beyond an isolated sample size.

Statements from this episode (7)

Assertion Partly supported
KiwiCo shipped its second 10M crates in just 18 months
“So I think you had mentioned, Guy, kind of in the beginning that we shipped out over twenty million crates now. And so if you look at kind of the first ten million crates We hit that mark actually in January, 2019. And then in the next like 18 months or so, we…”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 5:26
Disclosure
KiwiCo brings kids into its offices four to eight times weekly for testing
“In every office that we've had, we have a sizable room, and four to eight times a week kids are coming in to test the products at various stages.”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 8:22
Insight
Lin: Product testing with children requires direct observation over verbal feedback
“Depending on the age of the kid, it's not so much that they're going to tell you what's going on. You actually have to observe what's going on.”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 9:13
Disclosure
Lin: KiwiCo crates are intentionally not gender- or racially-specific
“When we create our crates, we believe that it's really important that they're universal and that they are not gender specific or racially specific. We're very, very intentional about that.”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 10:29
Assertion Not checkable as stated
KiwiCo crashed its own website launching a COVID-19 learning resource hub
“And so when we actually launched that resource hub, we actually crashed her site. We sent out the email announcing it and demonstrating that there was quite a bit of a need there.”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 12:55
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Sandra Oh Lin: Some families will permanently shift to homeschooling post-pandemic
“I imagine to a certain extent that some people will actually choose to continue to homeschool their children, so there actually may be a shift there.”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 16:10
Disclosure
KiwiCo validated its market through living room focus groups and national surveys
“So early on, I was very, very interested in talking to consumers. So I did qualitative focus groups in my living room and my friend's living rooms also did surveys actually got thousands of responses across the U S because they also recognize that I live in a …”
Sandra Oh Lin Sep 5, 2020 ▶ 17:42
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