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Apr 15, 2021 · 29m · how-i-built-this

How I Built Resilience: Lindsay Peoples Wagner of The Cut

Lindsay Peoples Wagner · 20m spoken Guy Raz · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of How I Built This: Resilience Edition, host Guy Raz interviews Lindsay Peoples Wagner, editor-in-chief of The Cut, exploring her non-traditional rise in fashion journalism, empathetic crisis leadership, and structural advocacy through the Black in Fashion Council. Lindsay shares candid insights on dismantling industry elitism, setting boundaries against burnout, and grounding ambition in personal heritage and purpose.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 27.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 2.6 Guest teaching 2.0 Guest disagreement 0.3 Guy pushing back 0.1
05100:0010:0020:002:07–5:26 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Confronting Industry Realities and Drawing Strength from Family Sacrifices Raz opens by referencing popular depictions of fashion magazine culture like 'The Devil Wears Prada'. Peoples Wagner expands on the reality by explaining that the industry's barriers extend beyond superficial cattiness to overt racism, classism, and nepotism.5:26–7:39 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Taking the Helm of The Cut Remotely During a Pandemic Raz prompts Peoples Wagner on the logistical and interpersonal challenge of taking over leadership at The Cut remotely during the pandemic. Peoples Wagner speaks candidly about personal grief from losing family to COVID and instituting an empathetic management style.7:39–11:55 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Developing Human-Centric Leadership and Combating Burnout Raz connects with the guest by admitting his own acute burnout on the morning of the interview. Peoples Wagner outlines practical boundary-setting tactics including cooking and keeping weekends entirely free of social obligations.11:55–16:28 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Leadership Growth, Racial Reckoning, and Personal Reflection Raz demonstrates detailed background research on Peoples Wagner's seminal article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and the subsequent launch of the Black in Fashion Council. Peoples Wagner explains the transition from consciousness-raising storytelling to structural corporate accountability metrics.16:29–18:46 · Guy as informed peer 1/10 Audience Q&A: Advice for Emerging Journalists and Imposter Syndrome Raz relays audience questions about career starts and imposter syndrome. Peoples Wagner directly rejects the imposter syndrome framing, asserting that she has seen unqualified white peers hold positions without self-doubt and that her ambition and work ethic leave no room for questioning her own capability.18:46–25:27 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Audience Q&A: Career Advice, Work Boundaries, and Departing Teen Vogue Raz asks several listener questions before gently pressing into the fallout and controversy surrounding Teen Vogue's subsequent editorial hire after Peoples Wagner left. Peoples Wagner responds gracefully, expressing skepticism of cancel culture and affirming her belief in redemption and faith.25:27–28:40 · Guy as informed peer 2/10 Future Vision for The Cut and Grounding in Toni Morrison's Wisdom Raz closes by asking about future editorial vision and lasting lessons from the year. Peoples Wagner reflects on pitching high-profile shoots early in her career and recites a guiding stanza from Toni Morrison on maintaining self-worth independent of one's employment.2:07–5:26 · Guest teaching 3/10 Confronting Industry Realities and Drawing Strength from Family Sacrifices Raz opens by referencing popular depictions of fashion magazine culture like 'The Devil Wears Prada'. Peoples Wagner expands on the reality by explaining that the industry's barriers extend beyond superficial cattiness to overt racism, classism, and nepotism.5:26–7:39 · Guest teaching 1/10 Taking the Helm of The Cut Remotely During a Pandemic Raz prompts Peoples Wagner on the logistical and interpersonal challenge of taking over leadership at The Cut remotely during the pandemic. Peoples Wagner speaks candidly about personal grief from losing family to COVID and instituting an empathetic management style.7:39–11:55 · Guest teaching 1/10 Developing Human-Centric Leadership and Combating Burnout Raz connects with the guest by admitting his own acute burnout on the morning of the interview. Peoples Wagner outlines practical boundary-setting tactics including cooking and keeping weekends entirely free of social obligations.11:55–16:28 · Guest teaching 2/10 Leadership Growth, Racial Reckoning, and Personal Reflection Raz demonstrates detailed background research on Peoples Wagner's seminal article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and the subsequent launch of the Black in Fashion Council. Peoples Wagner explains the transition from consciousness-raising storytelling to structural corporate accountability metrics.16:29–18:46 · Guest teaching 3/10 Audience Q&A: Advice for Emerging Journalists and Imposter Syndrome Raz relays audience questions about career starts and imposter syndrome. Peoples Wagner directly rejects the imposter syndrome framing, asserting that she has seen unqualified white peers hold positions without self-doubt and that her ambition and work ethic leave no room for questioning her own capability.18:46–25:27 · Guest teaching 2/10 Audience Q&A: Career Advice, Work Boundaries, and Departing Teen Vogue Raz asks several listener questions before gently pressing into the fallout and controversy surrounding Teen Vogue's subsequent editorial hire after Peoples Wagner left. Peoples Wagner responds gracefully, expressing skepticism of cancel culture and affirming her belief in redemption and faith.25:27–28:40 · Guest teaching 2/10 Future Vision for The Cut and Grounding in Toni Morrison's Wisdom Raz closes by asking about future editorial vision and lasting lessons from the year. Peoples Wagner reflects on pitching high-profile shoots early in her career and recites a guiding stanza from Toni Morrison on maintaining self-worth independent of one's employment.2:07–5:26 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Confronting Industry Realities and Drawing Strength from Family Sacrifices Raz opens by referencing popular depictions of fashion magazine culture like 'The Devil Wears Prada'. Peoples Wagner expands on the reality by explaining that the industry's barriers extend beyond superficial cattiness to overt racism, classism, and nepotism.5:26–7:39 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Taking the Helm of The Cut Remotely During a Pandemic Raz prompts Peoples Wagner on the logistical and interpersonal challenge of taking over leadership at The Cut remotely during the pandemic. Peoples Wagner speaks candidly about personal grief from losing family to COVID and instituting an empathetic management style.7:39–11:55 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Developing Human-Centric Leadership and Combating Burnout Raz connects with the guest by admitting his own acute burnout on the morning of the interview. Peoples Wagner outlines practical boundary-setting tactics including cooking and keeping weekends entirely free of social obligations.11:55–16:28 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Leadership Growth, Racial Reckoning, and Personal Reflection Raz demonstrates detailed background research on Peoples Wagner's seminal article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and the subsequent launch of the Black in Fashion Council. Peoples Wagner explains the transition from consciousness-raising storytelling to structural corporate accountability metrics.16:29–18:46 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Audience Q&A: Advice for Emerging Journalists and Imposter Syndrome Raz relays audience questions about career starts and imposter syndrome. Peoples Wagner directly rejects the imposter syndrome framing, asserting that she has seen unqualified white peers hold positions without self-doubt and that her ambition and work ethic leave no room for questioning her own capability.18:46–25:27 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Audience Q&A: Career Advice, Work Boundaries, and Departing Teen Vogue Raz asks several listener questions before gently pressing into the fallout and controversy surrounding Teen Vogue's subsequent editorial hire after Peoples Wagner left. Peoples Wagner responds gracefully, expressing skepticism of cancel culture and affirming her belief in redemption and faith.25:27–28:40 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Future Vision for The Cut and Grounding in Toni Morrison's Wisdom Raz closes by asking about future editorial vision and lasting lessons from the year. Peoples Wagner reflects on pitching high-profile shoots early in her career and recites a guiding stanza from Toni Morrison on maintaining self-worth independent of one's employment.2:07–5:26 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Confronting Industry Realities and Drawing Strength from Family Sacrifices Raz opens by referencing popular depictions of fashion magazine culture like 'The Devil Wears Prada'. Peoples Wagner expands on the reality by explaining that the industry's barriers extend beyond superficial cattiness to overt racism, classism, and nepotism.5:26–7:39 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Taking the Helm of The Cut Remotely During a Pandemic Raz prompts Peoples Wagner on the logistical and interpersonal challenge of taking over leadership at The Cut remotely during the pandemic. Peoples Wagner speaks candidly about personal grief from losing family to COVID and instituting an empathetic management style.7:39–11:55 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Developing Human-Centric Leadership and Combating Burnout Raz connects with the guest by admitting his own acute burnout on the morning of the interview. Peoples Wagner outlines practical boundary-setting tactics including cooking and keeping weekends entirely free of social obligations.11:55–16:28 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Leadership Growth, Racial Reckoning, and Personal Reflection Raz demonstrates detailed background research on Peoples Wagner's seminal article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and the subsequent launch of the Black in Fashion Council. Peoples Wagner explains the transition from consciousness-raising storytelling to structural corporate accountability metrics.16:29–18:46 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Audience Q&A: Advice for Emerging Journalists and Imposter Syndrome Raz relays audience questions about career starts and imposter syndrome. Peoples Wagner directly rejects the imposter syndrome framing, asserting that she has seen unqualified white peers hold positions without self-doubt and that her ambition and work ethic leave no room for questioning her own capability.18:46–25:27 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Audience Q&A: Career Advice, Work Boundaries, and Departing Teen Vogue Raz asks several listener questions before gently pressing into the fallout and controversy surrounding Teen Vogue's subsequent editorial hire after Peoples Wagner left. Peoples Wagner responds gracefully, expressing skepticism of cancel culture and affirming her belief in redemption and faith.25:27–28:40 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Future Vision for The Cut and Grounding in Toni Morrison's Wisdom Raz closes by asking about future editorial vision and lasting lessons from the year. Peoples Wagner reflects on pitching high-profile shoots early in her career and recites a guiding stanza from Toni Morrison on maintaining self-worth independent of one's employment.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 36.2% · guest 63.8%0:00 · Guy 36.2% · guest 63.8%3:00 · Guy 29.7% · guest 70.3%3:00 · Guy 29.7% · guest 70.3%6:00 · Guy 21.2% · guest 78.8%6:00 · Guy 21.2% · guest 78.8%9:00 · Guy 22% · guest 78%9:00 · Guy 22% · guest 78%12:00 · Guy 45.6% · guest 54.4%12:00 · Guy 45.6% · guest 54.4%15:00 · Guy 20.6% · guest 79.4%15:00 · Guy 20.6% · guest 79.4%18:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%18:00 · Guy 26.5% · guest 73.5%21:00 · Guy 9.7% · guest 90.3%21:00 · Guy 9.7% · guest 90.3%24:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%24:00 · Guy 21.8% · guest 78.2%27:00 · Guy 40.9% · guest 59.1%27:00 · Guy 40.9% · guest 59.1%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:53 Refusing imposter syndrome

Peoples Wagner forcefully rejects the premise that she should experience imposter syndrome, noting that plenty of unqualified white colleagues occupy senior industry roles without second-guessing themselves.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 24:08 Probing the Teen Vogue staff controversy

Raz gingerly but directly asks about the public controversy and staff revolt over the editorial hire that succeeded Peoples Wagner at Teen Vogue.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 2:23 Correcting movie stereotypes with industry realities

Peoples Wagner reframes Raz's lighthearted 'Devil Wears Prada' comparison by pointing out the deep-seated systemic racism, classism, and elitism that truly define the fashion publishing industry.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 13:37 Contextualizing the Black in Fashion Council origin

Raz demonstrates strong editorial preparation by synthesizing Peoples Wagner's award-winning article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and connecting it to the founding of the Black in Fashion Council.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Confronting Industry Realities and Drawing Strength from Family Sacrifices 3300 Raz opens by referencing popular depictions of fashion magazine culture like 'The Devil Wears Prada'. Peoples Wagner expands on the reality by explaining that the industry's barriers extend beyond superficial cattiness to overt racism, classism, and nepotism.
Taking the Helm of The Cut Remotely During a Pandemic 2100 Raz prompts Peoples Wagner on the logistical and interpersonal challenge of taking over leadership at The Cut remotely during the pandemic. Peoples Wagner speaks candidly about personal grief from losing family to COVID and instituting an empathetic management style.
Developing Human-Centric Leadership and Combating Burnout 3100 Raz connects with the guest by admitting his own acute burnout on the morning of the interview. Peoples Wagner outlines practical boundary-setting tactics including cooking and keeping weekends entirely free of social obligations.
Leadership Growth, Racial Reckoning, and Personal Reflection 4200 Raz demonstrates detailed background research on Peoples Wagner's seminal article 'Everywhere and Nowhere' and the subsequent launch of the Black in Fashion Council. Peoples Wagner explains the transition from consciousness-raising storytelling to structural corporate accountability metrics.
Audience Q&A: Advice for Emerging Journalists and Imposter Syndrome 1310 Raz relays audience questions about career starts and imposter syndrome. Peoples Wagner directly rejects the imposter syndrome framing, asserting that she has seen unqualified white peers hold positions without self-doubt and that her ambition and work ethic leave no room for questioning her own capability.
Audience Q&A: Career Advice, Work Boundaries, and Departing Teen Vogue 3211 Raz asks several listener questions before gently pressing into the fallout and controversy surrounding Teen Vogue's subsequent editorial hire after Peoples Wagner left. Peoples Wagner responds gracefully, expressing skepticism of cancel culture and affirming her belief in redemption and faith.
Future Vision for The Cut and Grounding in Toni Morrison's Wisdom 2200 Raz closes by asking about future editorial vision and lasting lessons from the year. Peoples Wagner reflects on pitching high-profile shoots early in her career and recites a guiding stanza from Toni Morrison on maintaining self-worth independent of one's employment.

Statements from this episode (8)

Opinion
Peoples Wagner: Fashion publishing is defined by overt racism and nepotism
“Incredibly, yes. The cutthroatness, yes, made sense, but I didn't realize, I think, the layers before I got into the industry, and I think a lot of times I thought it would be more, you It was microaggressions as far as racism, but then it was a lot more overt…”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 2:24
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Peoples Wagner: Lost six family members to COVID-19
“Myself, I lost six family members to COVID”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 6:25
Insight
Peoples Wagner: Media professionals cannot consume entertainment without evaluating coverage angles
“Especially in media, your brain is constantly on, because even if you're like, let's say, watching a new TV show, For me, it's never just let me enjoy the show. It's like, oh, do we need to cover one of the people in this show? Do we need to write about it? Do…”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 10:29
Disclosure
Black in Fashion Council partnered with Human Rights Campaign on equity index
“We decided to, you know, partner with the Human Rights Campaign on a corporate equity index and actually make an industry-wide, I think, business plan as far as how do we make inclusivity holistically part of your business plan.”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 15:13
Opinion
Peoples Wagner: Fashion companies use performative diversity without promoting POC internally
“I think what we saw was a lot of these companies having the right policies that were really inclusive, but not actually putting the policies into practice, or really doing the front-facing things of MLK quote on Instagram, or their runway, or their cover was a…”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 15:41
Insight
Peoples Wagner: Twitter performance does not determine the quality of journalism
“Just because a piece doesn't do well on Twitter doesn't mean it isn't good, and I think a lot of times people are writing in that vein, and I want young writers especially to just understand that that validation only goes so far, and what you really need is to…”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 17:19
Opinion
Peoples Wagner: Many white people in fashion hold roles they are unqualified for
“Especially in the world, but also in fashion, there have been a lot of white people who have had jobs that they were not even equipped for that had the role,”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 18:09
Opinion
Peoples Wagner: Cancel culture is unproductive and contradicts forgiveness
“I don't believe in cancel culture. I don't think it's productive. I'm a person of faith, so I am really invested in forgiveness. I'm really invested in redemption, and I'm not perfect, and none of us are”
Lindsay Peoples Wagner Apr 15, 2021 ▶ 24:39
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