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Jul 22, 2021 · 42m · how-i-built-this

Live From HIBT Summit: Payal Kadakia, Tristan Walker, and Perry Chen on Innovation

Guy Raz · 11m spoken Payal Kadakia · 10m spoken Perry Chen · 8m spoken Tristan Walker · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Host Guy Raz convenes founders Payal Kadakia, Tristan Walker, and Perry Chen at the How I Built This Summit to explore how authentic lived experiences, iterative resilience, and mission-driven conviction fuel transformative entrepreneurship.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 29.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 4.0 Guest teaching 2.8 Guest disagreement 1.8 Guy pushing back 1.8
05100:0015:0030:000:55–5:04 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Origins of Ideas: Solving Personal Frustrations and Problems Guy introduces the themes and prompts each founder with specific details about how they arrived at their ideas, recalling Payal's inspiration from platforms like OpenTable and ZocDoc. The panelists build warmly on each other's definitions of solving personal problems.5:05–10:46 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Early Mistakes, Iteration, and Continuous Product Improvement Guy draws an insightful contrast between Perry's multi-year incubation in a vacuum and Payal's real-time live customer iterations. Tristan slightly reframes Guy's focus on hardware packaging by emphasizing continuous software-style iteration cycles.10:48–20:15 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Finding the True North: Key Metrics and Lived Experience Guy probes how founders avoid losing their vision amid pivots and uncertainty. When Tristan claims he wasted a lot of time on earlier business ideas, Guy directly interjects to disagree, though Tristan holds his ground about needing to tap into lived experience.20:18–22:23 · Guy as informed peer 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Announcements and Station Promos Sponsor mid-roll advertisements and promotional station spots with no host-guest conversation.22:30–29:38 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 The Nature of Innovation: Originality, Soul, and Audience Reach Guy categorizes Perry as an accidental entrepreneur, which Tristan politely but firmly rejects, arguing that none of their paths were accidental. Guy follows up by defending the intense self-interrogation required to generate authentic business concepts.29:39–37:44 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Marketing Unfamiliar Products and Navigating the Pandemic Guy shares his own experience navigating pandemic-induced pivots with his children's media company and asks the panel how COVID transformed their operations. The founders provide reflective and empathetic accounts of partner preservation and platform adaptations.0:55–5:04 · Guest teaching 2/10 Origins of Ideas: Solving Personal Frustrations and Problems Guy introduces the themes and prompts each founder with specific details about how they arrived at their ideas, recalling Payal's inspiration from platforms like OpenTable and ZocDoc. The panelists build warmly on each other's definitions of solving personal problems.5:05–10:46 · Guest teaching 4/10 Early Mistakes, Iteration, and Continuous Product Improvement Guy draws an insightful contrast between Perry's multi-year incubation in a vacuum and Payal's real-time live customer iterations. Tristan slightly reframes Guy's focus on hardware packaging by emphasizing continuous software-style iteration cycles.10:48–20:15 · Guest teaching 4/10 Finding the True North: Key Metrics and Lived Experience Guy probes how founders avoid losing their vision amid pivots and uncertainty. When Tristan claims he wasted a lot of time on earlier business ideas, Guy directly interjects to disagree, though Tristan holds his ground about needing to tap into lived experience.20:18–22:23 · Guest teaching 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Announcements and Station Promos Sponsor mid-roll advertisements and promotional station spots with no host-guest conversation.22:30–29:38 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Nature of Innovation: Originality, Soul, and Audience Reach Guy categorizes Perry as an accidental entrepreneur, which Tristan politely but firmly rejects, arguing that none of their paths were accidental. Guy follows up by defending the intense self-interrogation required to generate authentic business concepts.29:39–37:44 · Guest teaching 3/10 Marketing Unfamiliar Products and Navigating the Pandemic Guy shares his own experience navigating pandemic-induced pivots with his children's media company and asks the panel how COVID transformed their operations. The founders provide reflective and empathetic accounts of partner preservation and platform adaptations.0:55–5:04 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Origins of Ideas: Solving Personal Frustrations and Problems Guy introduces the themes and prompts each founder with specific details about how they arrived at their ideas, recalling Payal's inspiration from platforms like OpenTable and ZocDoc. The panelists build warmly on each other's definitions of solving personal problems.5:05–10:46 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Early Mistakes, Iteration, and Continuous Product Improvement Guy draws an insightful contrast between Perry's multi-year incubation in a vacuum and Payal's real-time live customer iterations. Tristan slightly reframes Guy's focus on hardware packaging by emphasizing continuous software-style iteration cycles.10:48–20:15 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Finding the True North: Key Metrics and Lived Experience Guy probes how founders avoid losing their vision amid pivots and uncertainty. When Tristan claims he wasted a lot of time on earlier business ideas, Guy directly interjects to disagree, though Tristan holds his ground about needing to tap into lived experience.20:18–22:23 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Announcements and Station Promos Sponsor mid-roll advertisements and promotional station spots with no host-guest conversation.22:30–29:38 · Guest disagreement 4/10 The Nature of Innovation: Originality, Soul, and Audience Reach Guy categorizes Perry as an accidental entrepreneur, which Tristan politely but firmly rejects, arguing that none of their paths were accidental. Guy follows up by defending the intense self-interrogation required to generate authentic business concepts.29:39–37:44 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Marketing Unfamiliar Products and Navigating the Pandemic Guy shares his own experience navigating pandemic-induced pivots with his children's media company and asks the panel how COVID transformed their operations. The founders provide reflective and empathetic accounts of partner preservation and platform adaptations.0:55–5:04 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Origins of Ideas: Solving Personal Frustrations and Problems Guy introduces the themes and prompts each founder with specific details about how they arrived at their ideas, recalling Payal's inspiration from platforms like OpenTable and ZocDoc. The panelists build warmly on each other's definitions of solving personal problems.5:05–10:46 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Early Mistakes, Iteration, and Continuous Product Improvement Guy draws an insightful contrast between Perry's multi-year incubation in a vacuum and Payal's real-time live customer iterations. Tristan slightly reframes Guy's focus on hardware packaging by emphasizing continuous software-style iteration cycles.10:48–20:15 · Guy pushing back 3/10 Finding the True North: Key Metrics and Lived Experience Guy probes how founders avoid losing their vision amid pivots and uncertainty. When Tristan claims he wasted a lot of time on earlier business ideas, Guy directly interjects to disagree, though Tristan holds his ground about needing to tap into lived experience.20:18–22:23 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Announcements and Station Promos Sponsor mid-roll advertisements and promotional station spots with no host-guest conversation.22:30–29:38 · Guy pushing back 4/10 The Nature of Innovation: Originality, Soul, and Audience Reach Guy categorizes Perry as an accidental entrepreneur, which Tristan politely but firmly rejects, arguing that none of their paths were accidental. Guy follows up by defending the intense self-interrogation required to generate authentic business concepts.29:39–37:44 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Marketing Unfamiliar Products and Navigating the Pandemic Guy shares his own experience navigating pandemic-induced pivots with his children's media company and asks the panel how COVID transformed their operations. The founders provide reflective and empathetic accounts of partner preservation and platform adaptations.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 41% · guest 59%0:00 · Guy 41% · guest 59%3:00 · Guy 33.4% · guest 66.6%3:00 · Guy 33.4% · guest 66.6%6:00 · Guy 28.9% · guest 71.1%6:00 · Guy 28.9% · guest 71.1%9:00 · Guy 27.7% · guest 72.3%9:00 · Guy 27.7% · guest 72.3%12:00 · Guy 25.1% · guest 74.9%12:00 · Guy 25.1% · guest 74.9%15:00 · Guy 33.3% · guest 66.7%15:00 · Guy 33.3% · guest 66.7%18:00 · Guy 26.4% · guest 73.6%18:00 · Guy 26.4% · guest 73.6%21:00 · Guy 76.4% · guest 23.6%21:00 · Guy 76.4% · guest 23.6%24:00 · Guy 17.1% · guest 82.9%24:00 · Guy 17.1% · guest 82.9%27:00 · Guy 21.1% · guest 78.9%27:00 · Guy 21.1% · guest 78.9%30:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%30:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%33:00 · Guy 0% · guest 100%33:00 · Guy 0% · guest 100%36:00 · Guy 16.7% · guest 83.3%36:00 · Guy 16.7% · guest 83.3%39:00 · Guy 36.7% · guest 63.3%39:00 · Guy 36.7% · guest 63.3%42:00 · Guy 0% · guest 100%42:00 · Guy 0% · guest 100%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:02 Tristan rejects the accidental entrepreneur framing

Tristan directly disputes Guy's premise that Perry or any of the founders were accidental entrepreneurs, asserting that their ideas arrived authentically at the right moment.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 16:51 Guy refuses Tristan's framing of wasted time

When Tristan insists that his exploration of earlier business concepts was a waste of time, Guy immediately interjects to assert that it was a necessary part of the entrepreneurial discovery process.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 27:18 Tristan educates on soul over novelty in brand building

In response to Guy's question on whether ideas must be totally new, Tristan reframes the entire concept of innovation around soul, community values, and audience scale rather than novelty.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 6:28 Guy contrasts Perry and Payal's iteration models

Guy displays a sharp comparative grasp of both founders' startup timelines, precisely highlighting the difference between isolated conceptual incubation and live market testing.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Origins of Ideas: Solving Personal Frustrations and Problems 5211 Guy introduces the themes and prompts each founder with specific details about how they arrived at their ideas, recalling Payal's inspiration from platforms like OpenTable and ZocDoc. The panelists build warmly on each other's definitions of solving personal problems.
Early Mistakes, Iteration, and Continuous Product Improvement 5422 Guy draws an insightful contrast between Perry's multi-year incubation in a vacuum and Payal's real-time live customer iterations. Tristan slightly reframes Guy's focus on hardware packaging by emphasizing continuous software-style iteration cycles.
Finding the True North: Key Metrics and Lived Experience 5433 Guy probes how founders avoid losing their vision amid pivots and uncertainty. When Tristan claims he wasted a lot of time on earlier business ideas, Guy directly interjects to disagree, though Tristan holds his ground about needing to tap into lived experience.
Mid-Roll Sponsor Announcements and Station Promos 0000 Sponsor mid-roll advertisements and promotional station spots with no host-guest conversation.
The Nature of Innovation: Originality, Soul, and Audience Reach 5444 Guy categorizes Perry as an accidental entrepreneur, which Tristan politely but firmly rejects, arguing that none of their paths were accidental. Guy follows up by defending the intense self-interrogation required to generate authentic business concepts.
Marketing Unfamiliar Products and Navigating the Pandemic 4311 Guy shares his own experience navigating pandemic-induced pivots with his children's media company and asks the panel how COVID transformed their operations. The founders provide reflective and empathetic accounts of partner preservation and platform adaptations.

Statements from this episode (10)

Insight
Perry Chen: Founders are far more likely to succeed solving their own problems
“You're so much more likely to be successful if you're solving a problem that you have, so you know when you're really solving it. You don't have to focus group it.”
Perry Chen Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 3:23
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kadakia: ClassPass spent $500k and one year building initial product
“I mean, the first product we built, we spent half a million dollars building it, a year in the making.”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 6:59
Insight
Kadakia: Funding, press, and followers are false signals of product usage
“You can have funding, or press, or followers, and that still does not mean anyone is going to use your product”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 7:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Walker: Walker & Company ran on 3-to-6-month cycles versus 2-year industry norms
“I think that was the thing that was differentiated in a CPG industry that operates on two year cycles. We operated on three to six month cycles.”
Tristan Walker Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 10:32
Insight
Kadakia: Class reservations are the single heartbeat metric for ClassPass
“Over time, and I still always make this the most important number that my team sees, it's the reservation number, because that is the heartbeat of the company. That means our product is working. That means our partners are happy. That means our customers are e…”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 11:45
Insight
Chen: Early-stage founders must be deluded and ignore the odds
“I think it's just that you do have to be deluded when you're in those stages. You have to not think about the odds. You know, you have to have just incredible belief that it is worth it.”
Perry Chen Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 13:23
Insight
Kadakia: ClassPass unlocked market growth by targeting non-enthusiasts
“And there were a lot of fitness products in the market, That were actually speaking to the one percent of people who already did fitness, and I realized I wanted to go and talk to the 99% of people who were like me, and who were scared to walk into a spin clas…”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 28:25
Disclosure
Kadakia: ClassPass incentivized 6-month subscriptions with $100 Lululemon gift cards
“And so one of the things we did, and we figured this out early on, is we gave away Lululemon gift cards for anyone who joined and stayed for six months. So we said, hey, this is a 99 dollar product, you get a hundred dollar gift card if you stay for six months…”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 30:17
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Kadakia: ClassPass revenue dropped 95% within two weeks of COVID-19
“Mandated by the government, almost every studio was shut down, right, within two weeks of COVID starting. So that was like a 95% drop in revenue. It was just a shutdown completely”
Payal Kadakia Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 34:15
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Chen predicts corporate governance will become the primary differentiator for companies
“I mean, at the organizational governance level, the corporate governance level, I think that's a big thing that people are going to start paying more and more attention to. We've been running so much on this kind of totally profit-centric system in the U.S., a…”
Perry Chen Jul 22, 2021 ▶ 38:52
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