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May 26, 2022 · 36m · how-i-built-this

HIBT Lab! Burn Rate: Andy Dunn

Andy Dunn · 23m spoken Guy Raz · 9m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Bonobos co-founder Andy Dunn joins Guy Raz on How I Built This Lab to discuss his memoir Burn Rate, detailing his private battle with bipolar disorder during the height of startup success and advocating for lifelong mental hygiene in high-stakes entrepreneurship.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 28.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 4.0 Guest disagreement 0.8 Guy pushing back 0.6
05100:0010:0020:0030:001:42–6:42 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Transitioning from Startup CEO to Corporate Employee at Walmart Guy Raz brings in industry knowledge about founder retention post-acquisition, citing examples like Don Katz at Audible. Andy reflects cooperatively on his transition from founder-CEO to corporate employee at Walmart.6:43–11:07 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 The Stark Contrast Between Public Success and Private Crisis Andy shares the profound contrast between his public success in 2017 and his hidden psychotic break and arrest in 2016. Raz provides an empathetic, supportive space for Andy to recount his private crisis.11:33–20:40 · Guy as informed peer 3/10 Experiencing Severe Mania and Finding Compassion in Crisis Andy provides an educational breakdown of Bipolar I disorder, differentiating hypomania from full mania, and gently clarifies the timeline of the Walmart acquisition when Raz asks about it.20:56–28:40 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Confronting a Buried Diagnosis and Finding the Right Treatment Andy refines Raz's phrasing by stating he did not merely 'ignore' his diagnosis but actively buried and denied it due to terrifying suicide statistics. He explains the journey through treatment and medical vigilance.28:42–33:56 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Navigating Startup Leadership and Prioritizing Mental Hygiene Andy lays out a practical framework for executive mental hygiene and advocates for workplace disclosure norms. Raz frames the conversation around broader problem-solving for founders.1:42–6:42 · Guest teaching 2/10 Transitioning from Startup CEO to Corporate Employee at Walmart Guy Raz brings in industry knowledge about founder retention post-acquisition, citing examples like Don Katz at Audible. Andy reflects cooperatively on his transition from founder-CEO to corporate employee at Walmart.6:43–11:07 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Stark Contrast Between Public Success and Private Crisis Andy shares the profound contrast between his public success in 2017 and his hidden psychotic break and arrest in 2016. Raz provides an empathetic, supportive space for Andy to recount his private crisis.11:33–20:40 · Guest teaching 5/10 Experiencing Severe Mania and Finding Compassion in Crisis Andy provides an educational breakdown of Bipolar I disorder, differentiating hypomania from full mania, and gently clarifies the timeline of the Walmart acquisition when Raz asks about it.20:56–28:40 · Guest teaching 5/10 Confronting a Buried Diagnosis and Finding the Right Treatment Andy refines Raz's phrasing by stating he did not merely 'ignore' his diagnosis but actively buried and denied it due to terrifying suicide statistics. He explains the journey through treatment and medical vigilance.28:42–33:56 · Guest teaching 4/10 Navigating Startup Leadership and Prioritizing Mental Hygiene Andy lays out a practical framework for executive mental hygiene and advocates for workplace disclosure norms. Raz frames the conversation around broader problem-solving for founders.1:42–6:42 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Transitioning from Startup CEO to Corporate Employee at Walmart Guy Raz brings in industry knowledge about founder retention post-acquisition, citing examples like Don Katz at Audible. Andy reflects cooperatively on his transition from founder-CEO to corporate employee at Walmart.6:43–11:07 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Stark Contrast Between Public Success and Private Crisis Andy shares the profound contrast between his public success in 2017 and his hidden psychotic break and arrest in 2016. Raz provides an empathetic, supportive space for Andy to recount his private crisis.11:33–20:40 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Experiencing Severe Mania and Finding Compassion in Crisis Andy provides an educational breakdown of Bipolar I disorder, differentiating hypomania from full mania, and gently clarifies the timeline of the Walmart acquisition when Raz asks about it.20:56–28:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Confronting a Buried Diagnosis and Finding the Right Treatment Andy refines Raz's phrasing by stating he did not merely 'ignore' his diagnosis but actively buried and denied it due to terrifying suicide statistics. He explains the journey through treatment and medical vigilance.28:42–33:56 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Navigating Startup Leadership and Prioritizing Mental Hygiene Andy lays out a practical framework for executive mental hygiene and advocates for workplace disclosure norms. Raz frames the conversation around broader problem-solving for founders.1:42–6:42 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Transitioning from Startup CEO to Corporate Employee at Walmart Guy Raz brings in industry knowledge about founder retention post-acquisition, citing examples like Don Katz at Audible. Andy reflects cooperatively on his transition from founder-CEO to corporate employee at Walmart.6:43–11:07 · Guy pushing back 0/10 The Stark Contrast Between Public Success and Private Crisis Andy shares the profound contrast between his public success in 2017 and his hidden psychotic break and arrest in 2016. Raz provides an empathetic, supportive space for Andy to recount his private crisis.11:33–20:40 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Experiencing Severe Mania and Finding Compassion in Crisis Andy provides an educational breakdown of Bipolar I disorder, differentiating hypomania from full mania, and gently clarifies the timeline of the Walmart acquisition when Raz asks about it.20:56–28:40 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Confronting a Buried Diagnosis and Finding the Right Treatment Andy refines Raz's phrasing by stating he did not merely 'ignore' his diagnosis but actively buried and denied it due to terrifying suicide statistics. He explains the journey through treatment and medical vigilance.28:42–33:56 · Guy pushing back 0/10 Navigating Startup Leadership and Prioritizing Mental Hygiene Andy lays out a practical framework for executive mental hygiene and advocates for workplace disclosure norms. Raz frames the conversation around broader problem-solving for founders.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 79.1% · guest 20.9%0:00 · Guy 79.1% · guest 20.9%3:00 · Guy 31.6% · guest 68.4%3:00 · Guy 31.6% · guest 68.4%6:00 · Guy 26.1% · guest 73.9%6:00 · Guy 26.1% · guest 73.9%9:00 · Guy 34.9% · guest 65.1%9:00 · Guy 34.9% · guest 65.1%12:00 · Guy 5.7% · guest 94.3%12:00 · Guy 5.7% · guest 94.3%15:00 · Guy 27.5% · guest 72.5%15:00 · Guy 27.5% · guest 72.5%18:00 · Guy 16.1% · guest 83.9%18:00 · Guy 16.1% · guest 83.9%21:00 · Guy 28.5% · guest 71.5%21:00 · Guy 28.5% · guest 71.5%24:00 · Guy 18.9% · guest 81.1%24:00 · Guy 18.9% · guest 81.1%27:00 · Guy 11.7% · guest 88.3%27:00 · Guy 11.7% · guest 88.3%30:00 · Guy 31.3% · guest 68.7%30:00 · Guy 31.3% · guest 68.7%33:00 · Guy 11.9% · guest 88.1%33:00 · Guy 11.9% · guest 88.1%36:00 · Guy 100% · guest 0%36:00 · Guy 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 17:48 Andy corrects acquisition timeline

Andy gently interrupts and corrects Raz's premise that he was actively negotiating with Walmart during his hospitalisation, clarifying that acquisition talks started months later.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 5:18 Raz probes corporate tenure motives

Raz questions Andy's transition, offering examples of long-tenured acquired founders and asking whether Andy entered Walmart already planning a swift departure.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 12:04 Clinical definition of Bipolar I vs hypomania

Andy educates the host and listeners on how hypomania mimics entrepreneurial flow states before escalating into full, reality-disconnecting mania.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 5:18 Raz references post-acquisition cases

Raz demonstrates his knowledge of startup ecosystems by citing Don Katz at Audible to contextualise founder commitments after major corporate buyouts.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Transitioning from Startup CEO to Corporate Employee at Walmart 5211 Guy Raz brings in industry knowledge about founder retention post-acquisition, citing examples like Don Katz at Audible. Andy reflects cooperatively on his transition from founder-CEO to corporate employee at Walmart.
The Stark Contrast Between Public Success and Private Crisis 3400 Andy shares the profound contrast between his public success in 2017 and his hidden psychotic break and arrest in 2016. Raz provides an empathetic, supportive space for Andy to recount his private crisis.
Experiencing Severe Mania and Finding Compassion in Crisis 3511 Andy provides an educational breakdown of Bipolar I disorder, differentiating hypomania from full mania, and gently clarifies the timeline of the Walmart acquisition when Raz asks about it.
Confronting a Buried Diagnosis and Finding the Right Treatment 4521 Andy refines Raz's phrasing by stating he did not merely 'ignore' his diagnosis but actively buried and denied it due to terrifying suicide statistics. He explains the journey through treatment and medical vigilance.
Navigating Startup Leadership and Prioritizing Mental Hygiene 4400 Andy lays out a practical framework for executive mental hygiene and advocates for workplace disclosure norms. Raz frames the conversation around broader problem-solving for founders.

Statements from this episode (9)

Insight
Being an employee is often harder than being a startup CEO
“And I have to say, it is such a profoundly humbling, meaningful, good, And challenging, sometimes maddening experience to realize that all these years you were, you know, woe is me, being a CEO is so hard, and it actually turns out that being an employee in a …”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 3:08
Opinion
Marc Lore is the best entrepreneur on the East Coast
“Was Mark Laurie, who I think is the best entrepreneur on the East Coast.”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 4:03
Assertion Partly supported
Bonobos sold to Walmart for $300 million in 2017
“We sold the company for three hundred million dollars”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 7:35
Assertion Supported
Andy Dunn was arrested for assault during a 2016 manic episode
“And I was arrested for felony and misdemeanor assault of my now wife and mother-in-law who were Trying to keep me from running into the street naked out of my apartment on ninth street.”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 8:39
Insight
Hypomania is nearly indistinguishable from an entrepreneur who is 'on'
“I think that hypomanic state is almost indistinguishable from an entrepreneur who is quote unquote on, right?”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 12:56
Assertion Supported
Walmart acquisition talks began six months after his 2016 breakdown
“The acquisition conversation with Walmart wouldn't come till about half a year later, so we were more in the warm-up phase.”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 17:50
Insight
Startup volatility often masks clinical bipolar mood swings in founders
“It's easy to explain away The mood swings you might experience as a person with bipolar disorder, if you're also an entrepreneur, as being due to the fact that you're an entrepreneur, when there's something else that you need to be dealing with as well, that i…”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 25:12
Disclosure
Dunn disclosed his psychiatric crisis to only four key Bonobos executives
“What I did, Guy, was I told a small cohort of people who just had to know I told our general counsel. I told our head of HR. I told our CFO. I told my assistant.”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 29:03
Disclosure
Dunn sees a doctor twice weekly so 72 hours never pass unchecked
“I'll still be seeing a doctor twice a week, And twice a week is a lot, right? Seeing a doctor twice a week is a lot, but I do it because I don't want more than 72 hours or so to pass without him having a read on how I'm doing.”
Andy Dunn May 26, 2022 ▶ 35:08
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