Nov 14, 2022 · 1h 30m · how-i-built-this
Chobani: Hamdi Ulukaya
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of How I Built This, host Guy Raz interviews Chobani founder Hamdi Ulukaya, detailing his improbable journey from a Kurdish sheep-farming background in Turkey to building an iconic multibillion-dollar Greek yogurt empire in upstate New York.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 31.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Guy as informed peer 4.1 Guest teaching 3.4 Guest disagreement 1.2 Guy pushing back 1.3
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 1:19:10 Refusing predatory control terms
Hamdi emphatically recounts defying predatory rescue investors who demanded control, declaring he would rather bankrupt and bury the business himself than yield to extortionate demands.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 59:30 Challenging mainstream retail strategy over Whole FoodsGuy Raz directly challenges Hamdi's decision to pursue costly mass supermarket slotting over the more accessible, autonomous natural-food retail channels like Whole Foods.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 30:10 Educating host on commercial cheesemaking hurdlesHamdi disabuses Raz of the simplistic notion that artisanal cheesemaking background guarantees smooth commercial production, explaining the volatile realities of industrial pasteurization and cultures.
Guy holds their own ▶ 50:45 Breaking down Greek yogurt straining scienceGuy Raz demonstrates technical industry expertise by detailing how centrifuge separators extract whey from high-moisture milk to achieve Greek yogurt's distinct thickness.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Nomadic Upbringing and Family Roots in Eastern Turkey | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Guy Raz probes Hamdi's pastoral childhood, asking clarifying questions about whether the semi-nomadic lifestyle involved severe poverty. Hamdi clarifies that while they lacked modern luxuries, his father was a respected community leader and the family never considered themselves poor. | |
| Political Awakening and the Decision to Leave Turkey | 4 | 2 | 2 | 1 | Raz summarizes Ulukaya's student activist background at Ankara University during political unrest in Turkey. Ulukaya recounts how an older customer at his brother's grocery store bluntly challenged his anti-capitalist prejudices and persuaded him to study in the United States instead of Europe. | |
| Bidding Farewell to Mother and Arriving in America | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Hamdi narrates the emotional farewell to his mother and tribal life in eastern Turkey. The host listens attentively as Hamdi details his naive arrival in the United States and discovering that New York was a state rather than just a city. | |
| Early Financial Hardships and Isolation in New York | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Raz guides the timeline from Long Island to Manhattan and upstate New York, asking about English studies and farming. Ulukaya shares his astonishment upon discovering upstate New York dairy farms, which felt just like his homeland. | |
| A Father's Visit Sparks a Feta Import Venture | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Raz asks about the logistics of importing Turkish feta after Hamdi's father complained about American cheese quality. Hamdi explains how he secured an Armenian distributor in Queens despite having zero prior commercial business background. | |
| Tragic Loss of Mother and Emotional Turmoil | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | Ulukaya speaks openly about the devastating loss of his mother to liver disease and the grief that paralyzed him. Raz offers compassionate scaffolding as Hamdi explains how his father subsequently pushed him to manufacture cheese domestically. | |
| Launching Euphrates Cheese and Securing USDA Backing | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Raz assumes cheesemaking would be straightforward given Hamdi's upbringing, but Hamdi corrects him by detailing the technical complexities of milk pasteurization and cultures. Ulukaya explains the grueling reality of sleeping in his van to sell small quantities of feta to regional diners. | |
| The Discarded Flyer and Kraft Plant Opportunity | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Raz inquires about how Ulukaya found the shuttered Kraft facility, expressing surprise at the low price. Hamdi explains he rescued the real estate flyer from the trash bin and initially thought the $700,000 asking price must have been $7 million given equipment valuation. | |
| Touring the Desolate Kraft Plant in South Edmeston | 4 | 2 | 0 | 0 | Ulukaya describes the visceral sadness of walking through the closing Kraft factory in South Edmeston, likening it to a funeral in his hometown. Raz validates the observation, noting the plant's history producing Philadelphia cream cheese and Breyers yogurt. | |
| Overcoming Doubts to Secure KeyBank SBA Financing | 5 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Raz points out that Hamdi's attorney was entirely reasonable to challenge his purchase plan given Kraft's retreat and Hamdi's lack of money. Hamdi details his counter-intuition and how local KeyBank representatives helped him structure an SBA loan application. | |
| Recruiting Former Kraft Staff to Revive the Factory | 3 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Ulukaya explains how he rehired four key former Kraft employees who possessed institutional knowledge of the machinery and underground piping. Raz listens as Hamdi describes navigating the psychological hesitation of staff who were skeptical of their new boss. | |
| Formulating Chobani: Separator, Branding, and Packaging Design | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Raz demonstrates strong familiarity with the food science behind strained Greek yogurt and the need for centrifuge separators. Hamdi explains driving to Wisconsin to buy a used separator, sourcing custom European-style cups from Colombia, and his obsessive perfectionism over yogurt texture. | |
| ShopRite Breakthrough and Factory-as-Collateral Gamble | 5 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Raz asks why Hamdi did not take the lower-barrier route of launching in Whole Foods or specialty stores. Hamdi pushes back against gourmet positioning, explaining that he gambled by offering his entire factory as collateral to waive upfront ShopRite slotting fees. | |
| Exploding Demand and Around-the-Clock Factory Operations | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Raz questions the mechanics of scaling manufacturing overnight when weekly ShopRite orders jumped to 25,000 cases. Hamdi explains converting restrooms into offices, repurposing coolers into filling rooms, and the collective adrenaline of running 24-hour shifts. | |
| Integrating Refugee Workers and Achieving Organic Hypergrowth | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Raz asks how Hamdi expanded production so swiftly without outside private equity investment. Hamdi explains hiring resettled refugees from Utica with company-provided shuttles and translators, and reinvesting gross margins while managing accounting solely on QuickBooks. | |
| Rejecting Multibillion-Dollar Big Food Acquisition Offers | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Raz notes the immense temptation of multibillion-dollar buyout offers from legacy food conglomerates. Hamdi admits the immense fortune was tempting but explains he turned them down because he was energized by the entrepreneurial journey rather than cashing out. | |
| Idaho Plant Expansion and the Damaging Mold Recall | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2 | Raz points out the severe operational blow of the 2013 mold recall originating from the massive new Idaho facility. Hamdi reflects with candor on the near-fatal complexity of rushing a million-square-foot facility and having to replace legacy staff. | |
| Standing on the Brink of Bankruptcy and Despair | 5 | 5 | 3 | 2 | Hamdi reveals for the first time publicly that called-in bank loans brought Chobani to the brink of bankruptcy after predatory investors demanded majority control. Hamdi explains his resolve to bury the company himself rather than submit to predatory terms, which prompted bankers to grant a last-minute extension. | |
| TPG Partnership, Leadership Evolution, and Social Advocacy | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Raz presses Hamdi on the Wall Street Journal criticism regarding operational strain and the decision to take public stances on contentious social issues like refugee advocacy. Hamdi explains that corporate social responsibility is integral to Chobani's corporate identity and operational success. | |
| Reflections on Immigrant Success and Raw Milk Banter | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Raz asks Hamdi to reflect on luck versus effort before closing with lighthearted banter about drinking raw sheep milk. Hamdi playfully rejects giving unpasteurized milk to his children due to pathogen risks, poking fun at the host's romanticized culinary take. |
Statements from this episode (27)
Ulukaya: Kurdish Nomadic Community Lived Isolated From Modern Society
“The nomads were really isolated from the everyday life. We kind of, we were kind of people like from Mars, really. We would come to town and buy our flowers and sugars and whatever it is, and then the second we are done, we are on our horses and mules and we a…”
Ulukaya: Father Built Small Business Selling Kurdish Nomads' Cheese in Cities
“So it didn't make it too much difference in life, but what it did is you had a reputation, people will trust you, they will value your opinion and usually you will buy all the other people's cheese, and you combine them, and you would, my father would take it …”
Ulukaya: Arrived in the US with $3,000 to study English
“Turns out that acceptance was Adelphi University in Long Island, and it was one of the most expensive English class, and I had 3000 dollars in my pocket my brother gave me from Istanbul.”
Hamdi Ulukaya Had No Business Experience Before Importing Feta
“And that was the beginning of my business journey until that moment. I had never been involved with business.”
Ulukaya: Existing US Domestic Feta Was Horrible, Creating an Endless Opportunity
“The problem was it was horrible. Like literally awful. Like it was so bad. And say, okay, people are buying this stuff. So if you make it a little bit better, you know, it's endless. So this is no brainer.”
Hamdi Ulukaya: USDA provided a 90% loan guarantee for cheese factory
“And then we heard back after, I don't know how long, a month or two, That we were given 90% guarantee, or the banks was given 90% guarantee.”
Ulukaya: Bulk Diner Feta Is Low-Margin and Prioritizes Volume Over Quality
“Soon enough I realized that this is not... This is not a huge margin thing. You know, you have large manufacturers, even though their product is pretty awful, you have these large manufacturers out of Wisconsin that make millions of pounds. They ship it all ar…”
Ulukaya: Kraft listed its closed yogurt factory for $700,000
“And I called, the person answered, and said, yeah, this is a yogurt factory, it's an old one it's Kraft, and they closed it and they are selling it. As is. And I asked the price, I said, what's the price? He said, 700,000 dollars.”
Ulukaya: Pre-Chobani American yogurt was ten times worse than Turkish yogurt
“But compared to what it was here, the yogurt was 10 times worse. It was literally horrible. Like, it was awful stuff.”
Ulukaya: Commercial Strained Yogurt Requires Centrifuge Separators Costing Nearly $1M
“You know, commercially, this cannot be done with a cheesecloth. It needs to be a centrifuge separator. And these separators are, you know, I would say, you know, close to a million dollars by the time.”
Ulukaya: Eye-Catching Packaging Secures Initial Trial While Quality Drives Conversion
“My view was,
I spent so much time making this yogurt and I think it's one of the best that I've made, and people will not, you know, see the difference if I put them in the same cups, so if I can catch their eye, have them to try it once, the yogurt will finis…”
Ulukaya: Supermarkets charged $30,000 per SKU in listing fees to stock yogurt
“That is the biggest event in the history of Chobani. Now, in order to be able to make it to ShopRite, or that kind of conventional stores, you have to pay, what they call it, listing fee. And every cup, I don't know what it is now, but I think at the time it w…”
Ulukaya: Chobani targeted mass supermarket retail instead of natural food channels
“So I did not have huge interest on natural channels. I wanted this product to be in a mass channels where ordinary people shop.”
Ulukaya: Chobani offered its factory as collateral to secure ShopRite distribution
“I personally said, if it doesn't sell, I will give you the factory.”
Ulukaya: Chobani initially priced below production cost
“And then I priced it Below my cost at that time.”
Ulukaya: Chobani required 20,000 cases to break even
“If I reached to 20,000 cases, I would break even, and everything after that it would be you know, profitable.”
Ulukaya: Chobani ran on QuickBooks until reaching $600 million in revenue
“You know, at that time, you know, not only two hundred and fifty million, until six hundred million dollars, I run that company on QuickBooks.”
Ulukaya: Chobani Hit $500M-$600M In Sales Before Competitors Reacted
“All this time, I'm betting on they're going to be very slow, and they were slow. So by the time they wake up, really, I was at five, six hundred million dollar sales area.”
Ulukaya: Rejected Multibillion-Dollar Acquisition Offers For Chobani Multiple Times
“I have offered this huge amount of money, and there's endless what you can do with this money. And I said no to it. And I said no a few times.”
Ulukaya: Chobani built one-million-square-foot Idaho plant in under one year
“At that time, it was close to one million square feet plant. And with the 14 lines, we built it less than one year.”
Ulukaya: Chobani should have built Idaho plant in stages more cautiously
“I would have been more prepared than I would have done in In stages, I wouldn't do it in as fast. I would be more cautious. I would put more, you know, team members in place and make some changes.”
Ulukaya reveals Chobani was nearly forced into bankruptcy after Idaho recall
“You're about to File bankruptcy. Exactly. I've never talked about this anywhere before. It wasn't that damaging. But what it is, is the banks got really nervous, and they wanted their loan to be paid back. And that loan was used to build a factory supported by…”
Investors Demanded Near-Majority Equity and Ulukaya's Ouster During Chobani Crisis
“A time came, and I remember the gentleman called me, and he said, here's the amount that you will get, here is the, you know, percentage of the company that you have to give away, which is what was almost majority at that time, and you will be out of the compa…”
Ulukaya: Chobani reached $1B in sales in five years with zero outside capital
“Because we literally went from zero to billion in sales in five years without taking a penny from outside in that factory.”
Ulukaya interviewed five or six CEO candidates for Chobani
“From 2009 to 2011 i probably interviewed five maybe six candidates for ceo and every time i interview the person and i would see a dimension that would not fit chobani i would see a dimension that it would be risky i would see a dimension that it would not it …”