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Jun 12, 2025 · 46m · how-i-built-this

Advice Line with Perry Chen of Kickstarter

Guy Raz · 15m spoken Perry Chen · 9m spoken Joe Fontana · 6m spoken Katherine Kirbis · 5m spoken Jesse Hodge · 4m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Guy Raz and Kickstarter co-founder Perry Chen mentor three entrepreneurs facing critical scaling dilemmas, retail bottlenecks, and capital expansion challenges while sharing strategic frameworks to overcome founder burnout.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 36.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Guy as informed peer 6.2 Guest teaching 1.8 Guest disagreement 0.8 Guy pushing back 1.6
05100:0015:0030:0045:001:06–4:57 · Guy as informed peer 5/10 Catching Up with Kickstarter Co-Founder Perry Chen Guy opens by proposing a theory on how AI will disrupt creative professions. Perry gently reframes Guy's premise, noting that earning a living in creative arts has never been economically stable regardless of technological shifts.4:57–16:47 · Guy as informed peer 7/10 Advising Jesse Hodge on ModTub Scaling Dilemmas Guy showcases broad business knowledge by comparing ModTub's single-SKU dilemma to case studies from Therabody, Solo Stove, and Dollar Shave Club. Guy and Perry guide Jesse through imposter syndrome and explore options for hiring an operator or seeking acquisition.16:50–27:54 · Guy as informed peer 7/10 Mid-Episode Break and Program Reintroduction Guy gives a direct reality check on CPG fundraising, explaining that the brand is too small for professional PE/VC and needs $20M+ in revenue to be an acquisition target. He and Perry emphasize aggressive in-store demoing and setting a strict timeline.27:56–42:43 · Guy as informed peer 8/10 Intermission Break Before the Final Caller Guy outlines five distinct financing pathways for scaling Fry the Coop, referencing Dave's Hot Chicken, In-N-Out, and sale-leaseback property strategies. He also explains the macro shift in private equity from unprofitable growth to EBITDA discipline.42:45–45:25 · Guy as informed peer 4/10 Reflecting on Entrepreneurial Delusion and Founder Burnout Perry reflects on founder psychology, explaining that entrepreneurial delusion is necessary to start companies and that inability to find an off-ramp leads to widespread founder burnout. Guy engages collegially with Perry's insights.1:06–4:57 · Guest teaching 3/10 Catching Up with Kickstarter Co-Founder Perry Chen Guy opens by proposing a theory on how AI will disrupt creative professions. Perry gently reframes Guy's premise, noting that earning a living in creative arts has never been economically stable regardless of technological shifts.4:57–16:47 · Guest teaching 1/10 Advising Jesse Hodge on ModTub Scaling Dilemmas Guy showcases broad business knowledge by comparing ModTub's single-SKU dilemma to case studies from Therabody, Solo Stove, and Dollar Shave Club. Guy and Perry guide Jesse through imposter syndrome and explore options for hiring an operator or seeking acquisition.16:50–27:54 · Guest teaching 1/10 Mid-Episode Break and Program Reintroduction Guy gives a direct reality check on CPG fundraising, explaining that the brand is too small for professional PE/VC and needs $20M+ in revenue to be an acquisition target. He and Perry emphasize aggressive in-store demoing and setting a strict timeline.27:56–42:43 · Guest teaching 1/10 Intermission Break Before the Final Caller Guy outlines five distinct financing pathways for scaling Fry the Coop, referencing Dave's Hot Chicken, In-N-Out, and sale-leaseback property strategies. He also explains the macro shift in private equity from unprofitable growth to EBITDA discipline.42:45–45:25 · Guest teaching 3/10 Reflecting on Entrepreneurial Delusion and Founder Burnout Perry reflects on founder psychology, explaining that entrepreneurial delusion is necessary to start companies and that inability to find an off-ramp leads to widespread founder burnout. Guy engages collegially with Perry's insights.1:06–4:57 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Catching Up with Kickstarter Co-Founder Perry Chen Guy opens by proposing a theory on how AI will disrupt creative professions. Perry gently reframes Guy's premise, noting that earning a living in creative arts has never been economically stable regardless of technological shifts.4:57–16:47 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Advising Jesse Hodge on ModTub Scaling Dilemmas Guy showcases broad business knowledge by comparing ModTub's single-SKU dilemma to case studies from Therabody, Solo Stove, and Dollar Shave Club. Guy and Perry guide Jesse through imposter syndrome and explore options for hiring an operator or seeking acquisition.16:50–27:54 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mid-Episode Break and Program Reintroduction Guy gives a direct reality check on CPG fundraising, explaining that the brand is too small for professional PE/VC and needs $20M+ in revenue to be an acquisition target. He and Perry emphasize aggressive in-store demoing and setting a strict timeline.27:56–42:43 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Intermission Break Before the Final Caller Guy outlines five distinct financing pathways for scaling Fry the Coop, referencing Dave's Hot Chicken, In-N-Out, and sale-leaseback property strategies. He also explains the macro shift in private equity from unprofitable growth to EBITDA discipline.42:45–45:25 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Reflecting on Entrepreneurial Delusion and Founder Burnout Perry reflects on founder psychology, explaining that entrepreneurial delusion is necessary to start companies and that inability to find an off-ramp leads to widespread founder burnout. Guy engages collegially with Perry's insights.1:06–4:57 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Catching Up with Kickstarter Co-Founder Perry Chen Guy opens by proposing a theory on how AI will disrupt creative professions. Perry gently reframes Guy's premise, noting that earning a living in creative arts has never been economically stable regardless of technological shifts.4:57–16:47 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Advising Jesse Hodge on ModTub Scaling Dilemmas Guy showcases broad business knowledge by comparing ModTub's single-SKU dilemma to case studies from Therabody, Solo Stove, and Dollar Shave Club. Guy and Perry guide Jesse through imposter syndrome and explore options for hiring an operator or seeking acquisition.16:50–27:54 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Mid-Episode Break and Program Reintroduction Guy gives a direct reality check on CPG fundraising, explaining that the brand is too small for professional PE/VC and needs $20M+ in revenue to be an acquisition target. He and Perry emphasize aggressive in-store demoing and setting a strict timeline.27:56–42:43 · Guy pushing back 2/10 Intermission Break Before the Final Caller Guy outlines five distinct financing pathways for scaling Fry the Coop, referencing Dave's Hot Chicken, In-N-Out, and sale-leaseback property strategies. He also explains the macro shift in private equity from unprofitable growth to EBITDA discipline.42:45–45:25 · Guy pushing back 1/10 Reflecting on Entrepreneurial Delusion and Founder Burnout Perry reflects on founder psychology, explaining that entrepreneurial delusion is necessary to start companies and that inability to find an off-ramp leads to widespread founder burnout. Guy engages collegially with Perry's insights.

speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Guy 77.2% · guest 22.8%0:00 · Guy 77.2% · guest 22.8%3:00 · Guy 41.3% · guest 58.7%3:00 · Guy 41.3% · guest 58.7%6:00 · Guy 23.1% · guest 76.9%6:00 · Guy 23.1% · guest 76.9%9:00 · Guy 25.3% · guest 74.7%9:00 · Guy 25.3% · guest 74.7%12:00 · Guy 38.4% · guest 61.6%12:00 · Guy 38.4% · guest 61.6%15:00 · Guy 49.6% · guest 50.4%15:00 · Guy 49.6% · guest 50.4%18:00 · Guy 17.9% · guest 82.1%18:00 · Guy 17.9% · guest 82.1%21:00 · Guy 20.8% · guest 79.2%21:00 · Guy 20.8% · guest 79.2%24:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%24:00 · Guy 35.8% · guest 64.2%27:00 · Guy 30.6% · guest 69.4%27:00 · Guy 30.6% · guest 69.4%30:00 · Guy 25.1% · guest 74.9%30:00 · Guy 25.1% · guest 74.9%33:00 · Guy 11.8% · guest 88.2%33:00 · Guy 11.8% · guest 88.2%36:00 · Guy 33.4% · guest 66.6%36:00 · Guy 33.4% · guest 66.6%39:00 · Guy 45.1% · guest 54.9%39:00 · Guy 45.1% · guest 54.9%42:00 · Guy 51.8% · guest 48.2%42:00 · Guy 51.8% · guest 48.2%45:00 · Guy 81.7% · guest 18.3%45:00 · Guy 81.7% · guest 18.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 3:24 Perry reframing creative stability

Perry challenges Guy's premise about AI threatening artist livelihoods by pointing out that creative careers have historically never possessed financial stability.

 Hardest push from Guy ▶ 23:25 Guy's reality check on CPG investment

Guy gives blunt pushback to Katherine's plans of raising institutional capital, explaining that institutional investors will not look at brands under current revenue thresholds.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 43:03 Perry explaining why hindsight advice is useless

When asked what advice he would give his younger self, Perry flips the question by explaining that realistic advice would have destroyed the irrational delusion required to build Kickstarter.

 Guy holds their own ▶ 38:57 Guy laying out five strategic financing alternatives

Guy demonstrates deep business acumen by mapping out five actionable capital structures for Joe Fontana, including sale-leasebacks, specialized restaurant lenders, and minority equity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicGuy as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementGuy pushing backWhy
Catching Up with Kickstarter Co-Founder Perry Chen 5321 Guy opens by proposing a theory on how AI will disrupt creative professions. Perry gently reframes Guy's premise, noting that earning a living in creative arts has never been economically stable regardless of technological shifts.
Advising Jesse Hodge on ModTub Scaling Dilemmas 7102 Guy showcases broad business knowledge by comparing ModTub's single-SKU dilemma to case studies from Therabody, Solo Stove, and Dollar Shave Club. Guy and Perry guide Jesse through imposter syndrome and explore options for hiring an operator or seeking acquisition.
Mid-Episode Break and Program Reintroduction 7102 Guy gives a direct reality check on CPG fundraising, explaining that the brand is too small for professional PE/VC and needs $20M+ in revenue to be an acquisition target. He and Perry emphasize aggressive in-store demoing and setting a strict timeline.
Intermission Break Before the Final Caller 8112 Guy outlines five distinct financing pathways for scaling Fry the Coop, referencing Dave's Hot Chicken, In-N-Out, and sale-leaseback property strategies. He also explains the macro shift in private equity from unprofitable growth to EBITDA discipline.
Reflecting on Entrepreneurial Delusion and Founder Burnout 4311 Perry reflects on founder psychology, explaining that entrepreneurial delusion is necessary to start companies and that inability to find an off-ramp leads to widespread founder burnout. Guy engages collegially with Perry's insights.

Statements from this episode (8)

Disclosure
Perry Chen stepped completely down from Kickstarter's board in late 2024
“I went from CEO, stayed on as chairman for many years, then was just a board member, brought on a new chairman, and then, really, as of about six months ago, I am now liberated.”
Perry Chen Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 2:08
Assertion Not checkable as stated
ModTub doubled its annual revenue to over $5 million last year
“We did just over five million dollars. That's doubling from the prior year.”
Jesse Hodge Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 7:54
Insight
Guy Raz: CPG brands need $20 million in sales for viable acquisition
“Because to be an acquisition target, you're going to need to hit. Twenty million or more in sales, right?”
Guy Raz Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 24:50
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fry the Coop is on track for $14.5 million in annual revenue
“Last year we finished at 12.9 million and we're already on track to do 14.5 million coming up this year.”
Joe Fontana Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 29:10
Disclosure
Fry the Coop plans to open 75 Chicagoland locations over 10 years
“We have been funding all of our growth with our own cash flow, but I have an audacious goal to open up 75 stores over the next 10 years all around the Chicagoland area.”
Joe Fontana Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 32:12
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Fry the Coop generated $1.5 million in EBITDA last year
“Cause we did 1.5 million in EBITDA last year.”
Joe Fontana Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 41:05
What-if
Perry Chen: Future common sense might have stopped me founding Kickstarter
“The delusion that I had, and I think the delusion that we all have as entrepreneurs, if I cut through that delusion with some common sense from the future, to be honest, who knows if I would have gone through with it.”
Perry Chen Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 43:10
Insight
Perry Chen: Many founders work years in misery just to avoid failing
“I think so many entrepreneurs just drive themselves to not fail their employees, not fail their investors, not fail, you know, success, and will add years and years and years onto businesses that they're running, 70, eighties hours a week that they really wish…”
Perry Chen Jun 12, 2025 ▶ 43:54
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