Aug 13, 2025 · 43m · how-i-built-this
Exclusive Update: The Chef Who Shocked the Culinary World and Why He’s Changing Course Again—Daniel Humm of Eleven Madison Park
gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this interview with Guy Raz, Eleven Madison Park chef Daniel Humm reflects on his historic decision to make the three-Michelin-star restaurant entirely plant-based and explains why he is transitioning to a flexible 90% plant-based model to balance hospitality, economic viability, and creative evolution.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Guy holds 35.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
speaking balance: gold is Guy, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Daniel rejects the premise that reverting 10% of the menu to animal products constitutes an admission of defeat, countering that the restaurant created an entirely new culinary chapter.
Hardest push from Guy ▶ 19:20 Challenging the Pivot's External PerceptionGuy presses Daniel directly on how the culinary world and public will inevitably judge the reintroduction of animal products as a failed experiment.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 15:15 Explaining the Unseen Costs of Plant-Based CookingDaniel educates Guy on how turning vegetables into luxury dishes increased labor costs by 20% while hurting revenue from private events and wine.
Guy holds their own ▶ 15:05 Breaking Down Restaurant Economics in ManhattanGuy demonstrates detailed command of fine-dining unit economics, itemizing fixed Manhattan rents, wine pairings, and capacity limits.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Guy as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Guy pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Reinventing Fine Dining: Daniel Humm's Creative Plant-Based Awakening | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Guy Raz demonstrates familiarity with fine-dining techniques like making butter without cream or extracting caviar texture from cypress seeds. Daniel Humm elaborates on the discovery of tonburi (land caviar) and the philosophy behind building an upstate farm. The tone is entirely collaborative and exploratory. | |
| Navigating Cultural Backlash and Achieving Historic Michelin Recognition | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy prompts Daniel to address the political polarization of veganism and whether he was attempting to lecture meat eaters. Daniel clarifies that his initial move came from naivete and artistic curiosity rather than activism, illustrating this with the story of a Texan cattle rancher who dined at EMP. | |
| Economic Pressures and the Hospitality Dilemma Behind the Pivot | 6 | 4 | 1 | 3 | Guy breaks down the business model of running a fine-dining restaurant in Manhattan, drilling down on labor costs and wine sales. Daniel explains how eliminating meat reduced private event bookings and wine pairing revenue while increasing kitchen labor costs by 20 percent. | |
| Redefining Hospitality: Reintroducing Animal Products to Eleven Madison Park | 4 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Guy asks Daniel if he worries people will view bringing meat back as a failure of the vegan experiment. Daniel defends the pivot by explaining that a restaurant must be a sustainable business and truly hospitable rather than dogmatic. | |
| Moving Past Dogma: Mediterranean Inspiration and a Balanced Culinary Philosophy | 6 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy draws an analogy between haute couture runway fashion and three-star Michelin dining to probe the cultural relevance of EMP. Daniel builds on this by explaining how ancient Mediterranean culinary traditions and Michael Pollan's principles guided his decision to balance plants with minimal animal protein. | |
| Rebuilding Relationships and Solidifying Eleven Madison Park's Authentic Voice | 4 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy asks about supplier relationships severed during the initial plant-based switch. Daniel reflects on the unintended friction with suppliers and peers, emphasizing that the culinary reinvention ultimately helped EMP find its distinct, authentic voice. | |
| Confronting Self-Doubt and Leading Cultural Evolution within Fine Dining | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Guy queries how Daniel handles internal friction with staff members who joined specifically for the vegan ethos. Daniel candidly discusses wrestling with imposter syndrome and feelings of weakness before embracing William de Kooning's philosophy that one must change to stay the same. | |
| The Enduring Role of Fine Dining and the Next Generation | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Guy questions whether the fine-dining business model remains viable amid industry-wide closures and economic pressure. Daniel defends the essential cultural and educational role of fine dining, comparing it to classical ballet and opera as a foundational training ground for casual dining. |