Aug 14, 2025 · 46m · catalyst
The case for sodium-ion
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of Catalyst, host Shayle Kann and Peak Energy CEO Landon Mossberg explore the technical, commercial, and economic potential of sodium-ion batteries, detailing how sodium iron pyrophosphate (NFPP) chemistry and passive system engineering can disrupt lithium-ion's dominance in grid-scale energy storage.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 22.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 5.3 Guest disagreement 1.4 Shayle pushing back 2.8
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 24:18 Reframing company identity
Landon counters Shayle's premise by rejecting the label of being purely a 'sodium-ion company' in favor of being chemistry-agnostic system integrators.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 33:58 Pressing on Capex definitionShayle interrupts to demand clarification on whether claimed parity applies to total installed Capex or purely balance of system hardware.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 40:35 Detailed degradation chemistry lectureLandon educates the host with empirical lab cycling comparisons showing NFPP retaining 94.5% health compared to LFP's 80% at elevated operating temperatures.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 27:07 Explaining energy density BOS penaltyShayle demonstrates solid domain knowledge by analogizing battery density BOS penalties directly to solar panel efficiency trade-offs.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Global Status and Manufacturing Landscape of Sodium-Ion Technology | 6 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Shayle contextualizes the historical shift from NMC to LFP as a precedent for sodium-ion's energy density trade-offs. Landon explains the current global capacity figures and highlights the difference between layered oxides and NFPP chemistries. | |
| Sodium-Ion End-Use Applications and Chemistries | 5 | 6 | 2 | 4 | Shayle presses Landon on why Chinese manufacturers are deploying sodium-ion in scooters despite low energy density. Landon clarifies that high ionic conductivity and cold weather advantages drive smaller mobile applications. | |
| Commercial Grid Deployments and Chinese Storage Policies | 4 | 5 | 1 | 2 | Shayle admits not knowing if sodium-ion duration cost scaling matches lithium-ion, allowing Landon to outline the operational similarities between the chemistries. Landon also touches upon Chinese interconnection policies incentivizing non-lithium storage. | |
| Sodium-Ion Supply Chains and Upstream Raw Materials | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Shayle inquires about active materials and supply chain geography. Landon details how synthetic sodium bicarbonate and US Trona reserves eliminate the upstream raw material bottlenecks that plague lithium. | |
| Mid-Roll Sponsor Break: Bloom Energy, Engie, and Energy Hub | 5 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Following mid-roll sponsor spots, Shayle frames the Capex comparison against incumbent LFP. Landon reframes Peak Energy's posture, insisting they are not dogmatically tied to sodium if better technologies arise. | |
| Passive Thermal Management and System-Level Cost Parity | 7 | 6 | 2 | 5 | Shayle pushes back to ensure Landon distinguishes balance of system costs from total installed Capex. Landon details how high-temperature tolerance enables completely passive cooling, eliminating moving parts and auxiliary power loads. | |
| Total Cost of Ownership, O&M, and Degradation Performance | 5 | 7 | 1 | 3 | Shayle questions the certainty of cycle life claims on an unproven chemistry. Landon cites internal lab test data showing over 94% state of health after 3,000 cycles at 45°C due to absent graphite exfoliation. | |
| Domestic US Manufacturing Strategy and Future Technological Innovations | 6 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Shayle asks about Peak Energy's roadmap for domestic US cell manufacturing. Landon explains their commercial off-take strategy and points toward future design innovations like anode-less architectures. |
Statements from this episode (18)
Mossberg: LFP battery prices have dropped by roughly half in two years
“Two years ago, LFP was twice as, almost twice as expensive as it is today”
Mossberg: Global sodium-ion battery capacity is between 30 and 100 GWh
“You'd be pretty safe in saying there's at least 30 gigawatt hours, probably as much as a hundred gigawatt hours of sodium ion capacity worldwide for all different variants”
Mossberg: Almost all global sodium-ion battery capacity is in China
“Almost all of it's in China. There's some sort of token projects and stuff elsewhere, but almost all of it's in China.”
Mossberg: CATL hybrid vehicle battery packs combine sodium-ion and LFP
“CATL is been very vocal about their hybrid pack technology where they're using, I think it's a layered oxide based sodium ion, but they basically have some portion of a vehicle pack that is sodium for primarily for power and for cold weather performance, and t…”
Chinese sodium-ion prices will undercut LFP by 2030, Mossberg predicts
“From the quotes and what we're hearing from the suppliers, not just cells, but also materials, we see a really low-risk pathway to the crossover point on price with LFP coming somewhere between twenty-twenty-eight and twenty-thirty out of China.”
Mossberg: Chinese sodium-ion stationary storage demonstrators are at tens of MWh scale
“You saw the first announcements kind of late last year, early this year with first sort of demonstrator projects, and those are in the, like, tens of megawatt hour scale.
and we know there are multiple other in the pipeline.”
Chinese policy gives non-lithium storage priority in interconnection queues
“Some of this is driven by some policy in China that,
That provided projects that, that do non-lithium storage with some preference in, like, interconnect queue speed and stuff like that, or the equivalent of whatever the interconnect queue is in China.
and …”
The US holds the world's largest natural trona reserves
“The U S has the world's largest natural, naturally exploitable proven Trona reserves.”
Waiting 4-5 years cedes sodium-ion economy of scale to China
“So if we wait for, Four or five years to get into this game, we're going to be in a similar place that we are today on LFP, but, ah, today at least, you're not facing such a huge, ah, economy of scale challenge.”
NFPP sodium-ion cells currently cost $15-$30/kWh more than LFP
“Depending on which LFP you're comparing to, the cells that we're working on are somewhere between 15 to 30 dollars per kilowatt hour more expensive than equivalent LFP on a cost per kilowatt hour basis.”
Mossberg: Sodium-ion cell prices will drop ~$20/kWh over next 2–3 years
“We can see pretty clearly for the next two years, because we have quotes from both from raw material suppliers and from cell suppliers that take the, you know, like the price is falling by about 20 dollars per kilowatt hour over the next two, two-ish years, tw…”
Mossberg: Sodium-ion cells will remain ~$10/kWh more expensive than LFP in 2028
“I think we'll still be about a 10 dollar per kilowatt hour more expensive if you talk like 20, 28.”
Peak Energy deploying world's first passively cooled grid-scale sodium-ion battery
“The first three and a half megawatt hour unit of capacity is going into the grid right now, and in Denver, it's going to be the largest outside of China. All that's exciting, but what I'm really excited about is that it's the first passively completely passive…”
Peak Energy reaches balance-of-system cost parity with LFP today
“We try to depopulate a lot of the subsystems that drive cost, complexity, and energy density loss here. And what that lets us do is actually get to a balance of system cost Despite a serious energy density penalty that is already today pretty much on par with …”
Hardware is only one-third of total grid battery project costs
“Today, you know, the cost of the hardware is probably only about a third of the total project cost. O&M, so all operating and maintenance, including Like, degradation maintenance, aux power, RTE losses, that is about another third of the total cost, NPV'd at, …”
Peak Energy's passive sodium-ion system uses 50x less aux power than LFP
“Just on aux power, we're 50 times, a little bit more than 50 times more efficient. We use 50 times less power than an equivalent LFP system.”