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Dec 11, 2025 · 36m · catalyst

Can AI revolutionize EPC?

Alex Modon · 18m spoken Shayle Kann · 12m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of Catalyst, host Shayle Kann interviews Unlimited Industries CEO Alex Modon to examine how unified software platforms and AI agents can eliminate change orders, solve incentive misalignments, and modernize large-scale industrial EPC projects.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 38.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Shayle as informed peer 4.8 Guest teaching 3.6 Guest disagreement 1.3 Shayle pushing back 3.1
05100:0010:0020:0030:000:00–2:09 · Shayle as informed peer 0/10 Audience Survey Announcement for Catalyst Listeners This is an introductory survey announcement and sponsor read segment without interactive dialogue.2:12–4:30 · Shayle as informed peer 0/10 Sponsor Message: Energy Hub Virtual Power Plants Monologue segment comprising an Energy Hub sponsor message and Shayle Kann framing the episode topic.4:31–9:32 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Analyzing Contractor Incentives and Cost-Plus Business Models Kann steelmans traditional EPC firms by pointing out commodity time lags and labor market volatility, prompting Modon to explain how cost-plus structures mitigate contractor risk at owner expense.9:35–14:11 · Shayle as informed peer 7/10 Standardization, Custom Design Risks, and Learning Rates Kann drills into custom versus standardized design risks, distinguishing solar module price drops from balance-of-system construction stagnation.14:14–17:59 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Front-End Engineering Design and Eliminating Downstream Uncertainty Kann questions whether the small cost share of engineering can really move the needle, allowing Modon to detail front-end engineering design gating and how full upfront design eliminates downstream risk.18:03–25:56 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy Fast-Track Power After ad reads, Kann pushes Modon to move beyond generic buzzwords and explain how their unified software suite actually differs from legacy EPC software stacks.25:58–29:22 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Automated Trade-Off Analysis and Data Center Acceleration Kann investigates whether the system uses true generative LLMs or standard engineering simulation pipelines, and Modon clarifies how autonomous trade-off analyses are performed.29:23–33:32 · Shayle as informed peer 7/10 Eliminating Change Orders Through Total Upfront Definition Kann probes the mechanics of offering no-change-order contracts, asking how commodity procurement hedging and subcontractor pricing cascades are managed.0:00–2:09 · Guest teaching 0/10 Audience Survey Announcement for Catalyst Listeners This is an introductory survey announcement and sponsor read segment without interactive dialogue.2:12–4:30 · Guest teaching 0/10 Sponsor Message: Energy Hub Virtual Power Plants Monologue segment comprising an Energy Hub sponsor message and Shayle Kann framing the episode topic.4:31–9:32 · Guest teaching 4/10 Analyzing Contractor Incentives and Cost-Plus Business Models Kann steelmans traditional EPC firms by pointing out commodity time lags and labor market volatility, prompting Modon to explain how cost-plus structures mitigate contractor risk at owner expense.9:35–14:11 · Guest teaching 4/10 Standardization, Custom Design Risks, and Learning Rates Kann drills into custom versus standardized design risks, distinguishing solar module price drops from balance-of-system construction stagnation.14:14–17:59 · Guest teaching 6/10 Front-End Engineering Design and Eliminating Downstream Uncertainty Kann questions whether the small cost share of engineering can really move the needle, allowing Modon to detail front-end engineering design gating and how full upfront design eliminates downstream risk.18:03–25:56 · Guest teaching 5/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy Fast-Track Power After ad reads, Kann pushes Modon to move beyond generic buzzwords and explain how their unified software suite actually differs from legacy EPC software stacks.25:58–29:22 · Guest teaching 5/10 Automated Trade-Off Analysis and Data Center Acceleration Kann investigates whether the system uses true generative LLMs or standard engineering simulation pipelines, and Modon clarifies how autonomous trade-off analyses are performed.29:23–33:32 · Guest teaching 5/10 Eliminating Change Orders Through Total Upfront Definition Kann probes the mechanics of offering no-change-order contracts, asking how commodity procurement hedging and subcontractor pricing cascades are managed.0:00–2:09 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Audience Survey Announcement for Catalyst Listeners This is an introductory survey announcement and sponsor read segment without interactive dialogue.2:12–4:30 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Sponsor Message: Energy Hub Virtual Power Plants Monologue segment comprising an Energy Hub sponsor message and Shayle Kann framing the episode topic.4:31–9:32 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Analyzing Contractor Incentives and Cost-Plus Business Models Kann steelmans traditional EPC firms by pointing out commodity time lags and labor market volatility, prompting Modon to explain how cost-plus structures mitigate contractor risk at owner expense.9:35–14:11 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Standardization, Custom Design Risks, and Learning Rates Kann drills into custom versus standardized design risks, distinguishing solar module price drops from balance-of-system construction stagnation.14:14–17:59 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Front-End Engineering Design and Eliminating Downstream Uncertainty Kann questions whether the small cost share of engineering can really move the needle, allowing Modon to detail front-end engineering design gating and how full upfront design eliminates downstream risk.18:03–25:56 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy Fast-Track Power After ad reads, Kann pushes Modon to move beyond generic buzzwords and explain how their unified software suite actually differs from legacy EPC software stacks.25:58–29:22 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Automated Trade-Off Analysis and Data Center Acceleration Kann investigates whether the system uses true generative LLMs or standard engineering simulation pipelines, and Modon clarifies how autonomous trade-off analyses are performed.29:23–33:32 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Eliminating Change Orders Through Total Upfront Definition Kann probes the mechanics of offering no-change-order contracts, asking how commodity procurement hedging and subcontractor pricing cascades are managed.0:00–2:09 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Audience Survey Announcement for Catalyst Listeners This is an introductory survey announcement and sponsor read segment without interactive dialogue.2:12–4:30 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Sponsor Message: Energy Hub Virtual Power Plants Monologue segment comprising an Energy Hub sponsor message and Shayle Kann framing the episode topic.4:31–9:32 · Shayle pushing back 5/10 Analyzing Contractor Incentives and Cost-Plus Business Models Kann steelmans traditional EPC firms by pointing out commodity time lags and labor market volatility, prompting Modon to explain how cost-plus structures mitigate contractor risk at owner expense.9:35–14:11 · Shayle pushing back 4/10 Standardization, Custom Design Risks, and Learning Rates Kann drills into custom versus standardized design risks, distinguishing solar module price drops from balance-of-system construction stagnation.14:14–17:59 · Shayle pushing back 3/10 Front-End Engineering Design and Eliminating Downstream Uncertainty Kann questions whether the small cost share of engineering can really move the needle, allowing Modon to detail front-end engineering design gating and how full upfront design eliminates downstream risk.18:03–25:56 · Shayle pushing back 4/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy Fast-Track Power After ad reads, Kann pushes Modon to move beyond generic buzzwords and explain how their unified software suite actually differs from legacy EPC software stacks.25:58–29:22 · Shayle pushing back 4/10 Automated Trade-Off Analysis and Data Center Acceleration Kann investigates whether the system uses true generative LLMs or standard engineering simulation pipelines, and Modon clarifies how autonomous trade-off analyses are performed.29:23–33:32 · Shayle pushing back 5/10 Eliminating Change Orders Through Total Upfront Definition Kann probes the mechanics of offering no-change-order contracts, asking how commodity procurement hedging and subcontractor pricing cascades are managed.

speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Shayle 73.8% · guest 26.2%0:00 · Shayle 73.8% · guest 26.2%3:00 · Shayle 62.3% · guest 37.7%3:00 · Shayle 62.3% · guest 37.7%6:00 · Shayle 28.3% · guest 71.7%6:00 · Shayle 28.3% · guest 71.7%9:00 · Shayle 56.3% · guest 43.7%9:00 · Shayle 56.3% · guest 43.7%12:00 · Shayle 33.2% · guest 66.8%12:00 · Shayle 33.2% · guest 66.8%15:00 · Shayle 12.6% · guest 87.4%15:00 · Shayle 12.6% · guest 87.4%18:00 · Shayle 58.1% · guest 41.9%18:00 · Shayle 58.1% · guest 41.9%21:00 · Shayle 14% · guest 86%21:00 · Shayle 14% · guest 86%24:00 · Shayle 29.7% · guest 70.3%24:00 · Shayle 29.7% · guest 70.3%27:00 · Shayle 28.6% · guest 71.4%27:00 · Shayle 28.6% · guest 71.4%30:00 · Shayle 29.8% · guest 70.2%30:00 · Shayle 29.8% · guest 70.2%33:00 · Shayle 40.7% · guest 59.3%33:00 · Shayle 40.7% · guest 59.3%36:00 · Shayle 0% · guest 0%36:00 · Shayle 0% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 33:02 Calling out industry change order tricks

Modon criticizes legacy EPC contracting conventions, calling them out for creating thousand-page contracts with intentionally vague scopes to extract margin through change order trickery.

 Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 7:30 Steelmans EPC cost volatility exposure

Kann challenges Modon's initial framing by pointing out that long procurement cycles and fluctuating commodity prices force EPCs into protective contract models.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:00 Explaining the 30 percent FID bottleneck

Modon explains industry project finance dynamics to Kann, demonstrating how lenders fund projects with only thirty percent engineering definition completed.

 Shayle holds their own ▶ 12:38 Solar soft cost decoupling distinction

Kann jumps in to refine Modon's analysis, noting that solar module manufacturing deflation failed to translate into equivalent reductions in balance-of-plant construction costs.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicShayle as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementShayle pushing backWhy
Audience Survey Announcement for Catalyst Listeners 0000 This is an introductory survey announcement and sponsor read segment without interactive dialogue.
Sponsor Message: Energy Hub Virtual Power Plants 0000 Monologue segment comprising an Energy Hub sponsor message and Shayle Kann framing the episode topic.
Analyzing Contractor Incentives and Cost-Plus Business Models 6425 Kann steelmans traditional EPC firms by pointing out commodity time lags and labor market volatility, prompting Modon to explain how cost-plus structures mitigate contractor risk at owner expense.
Standardization, Custom Design Risks, and Learning Rates 7424 Kann drills into custom versus standardized design risks, distinguishing solar module price drops from balance-of-system construction stagnation.
Front-End Engineering Design and Eliminating Downstream Uncertainty 6613 Kann questions whether the small cost share of engineering can really move the needle, allowing Modon to detail front-end engineering design gating and how full upfront design eliminates downstream risk.
Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy Fast-Track Power 6514 After ad reads, Kann pushes Modon to move beyond generic buzzwords and explain how their unified software suite actually differs from legacy EPC software stacks.
Automated Trade-Off Analysis and Data Center Acceleration 6524 Kann investigates whether the system uses true generative LLMs or standard engineering simulation pipelines, and Modon clarifies how autonomous trade-off analyses are performed.
Eliminating Change Orders Through Total Upfront Definition 7525 Kann probes the mechanics of offering no-change-order contracts, asking how commodity procurement hedging and subcontractor pricing cascades are managed.

Statements from this episode (11)

Insight
Modon: Treating construction projects as one-offs eliminates learning curve benefits
“When we move into projects world, everything's a snowflake. It's like, you know, everything's end of one. Even a project that we're building, you know, we built lots of refineries. That next refinery that we build is still an end of one project. And because it…”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 12:58
Insight
Modon: Small tweaks in EPC design trigger full-scale redesigns
“Every tweak or change that you make effectively reintroduces the entire redesign of the process. And so, yes, there's some stuff that gets lifted, but the overall amount of work that happens is not the kind of delta of the change. It is like a significant reha…”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 13:40
Assertion Supported
Modon: Most projects reach final investment decision with 30% engineering complete
“In the vast majority of projects, when you go to final investment decision and you have plus or -10% estimates, you're only maybe 30% of the way through your engineering. 70%, you still have to go do.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 16:04
Insight
Modon: High engineering costs force projects into single-pass local optima
“Because again, such a high marginal cost to engineering, what you end up doing is you only really design something one pass through. There's no sort of iteration. There's no optimization of design. And that leads you to a spot where you kind of make early deci…”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 17:15
Disclosure
Modon: Unlimited Industries uses its AI engineering software exclusively internally
“This is not like a software technology that we sell. It's like we use this as an internal tool ourself.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 22:20
Insight
Modon: EPCs reject better software because efficiency cuts billable hours
“There's no real incentive structure for an EPC to want better software. It's the same reason your law firm doesn't necessarily want like AI software to help them accelerate, you know, and reduce their billables.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 23:30
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Modon: Unlimited Industries can collapse data center design phases
“Instead of the design portion taking, call it six to nine months of your critical path. We can massively collapse that period of time. And that's really important for these data center projects to kind of accelerate how quickly we can actually build them.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 28:29
Disclosure
Modon: Unlimited Industries prohibits change orders in its contracts
“We literally put, like, no change orders in our contracts.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 29:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Modon: Unlimited completes 100% of engineering upfront before committing to price
“We've been able to not only Kind of like remove all that extra risk by taking the definition instead of, you know, doing that at 30%, we can take that definition all the way through a hundred percent.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 30:41
Opinion
Modon: Fixed-firm EPC contracts use scope loopholes to trigger change orders
“Most of these fixed firms aren't really like industry themselves. I mean, we've seen time and time again where it's like a fixed firm doesn't really mean a fixed firm because there's inevitably some way that in the thousand page contract that you assigned with…”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 33:10
Disclosure
Modon: Unlimited Industries will vertically integrate all trades in-house long term
“Certainly long-term, we will do everything in-house. We will vertically integrate as much as possible because that's where you can fix the incentives all the way through.”
Alex Modon Dec 11, 2025 ▶ 34:05
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