The Exchanges, every show

Q so we go back to materials. Your whole thing is like the winner is going to be able to produce more materials than their adversary. I still don't think I completely understand the way you think about achieving that goal. Is the hardware that you're manufacturing has to be as simple as possible and then you're offsetting all the innovation in software? Is that, is that still the basic thesis?

A The idea is that you build hardware that is good enough, um, and build it, um, in such high numbers that you eventually have economies of scale, but also the ability to overcome any Um, you know, adversary just through pure mass. And the way you achieve that is that you, you need to be able to mass produce, you need to design to mass produce, but then crucially you need software to, um, to allow those systems to first of all, be smart and, and be able to To coordinate, um, but you ideally also absorb a lot of the complexity of the, of the hardware that usually, you know, would be these exquisite systems that legacy primes will make into your software so you can make the hardware simpler. That means that your sensors are simpler and you regain a lot of the accuracy through very good AI algorithms. It might also be that your, um, your manufacturing, um, tolerances are a little bit bigger and you regain a lot of the control and accuracy again Through software that might recalibrate the system as it goes. And, and this is what we do. And that works extremely well, but you have to think it through as, as one unified system. And once you do that, you can go into mass manufacturing. So the, the HX-II is now a mass manufactured strike drone. And like we had to go through like all of those learnings in, in July and August last year, where, um, we had to go from dozens of HX-II per month…

AI assessment note: “absorb a lot of the complexity of the, of the hardware... into your software”

Q Do we underestimate the capabilities of Russia and Iran specifically?

A I mean, they're, they're, they're quite clear for everyone to see. Iran is producing a large number of drones already. They've been, um, you know, using and working on the Shahad, for example, for a long time. They've licensed that design to Russia. Russia is now manufacturing it itself. The software is getting better over time. Russia has the Lancet, uh, the, uh, the Zala Lancet, which is a capable strike drone, uh, quite, quite different from Rashad, which I think they've developed themselves. And the software for all of these is getting better as well. And so we're going to be faced, um, either, um, through Russia alone or through partners like Iran with adversaries that are committing to precise mass, large number of autonomous systems that we're going to have to counter one way or the other. And You can counter them, um, but you can't counter them with the current systems that we have. You can't just have exquisite, exquisite, um, systems like tanks or artillery guns that are not particularly well connected that take a while to, to take a shot. You need to work basically at the speed of software. You need to interconnect all of these systems, but crucially you need to have precise mass on your own side as well. You need to have the ability, however horrible that sounds, to have 1010 of thousands of strike drones. To deter.

AI assessment note: “they're quite clear for everyone to see. Iran is producing a large number of drones”

Q a tweet that was interesting, where, and maybe this can tie into the dinner that we had a few years ago, where we had this fierce argument, and I left thinking that we hated each other, and then now we've become friends. But you said something like a 100,000 of your drones could prevent a land war in Europe. What does that mean and why? Why do you believe that?

A Yeah, I said this, I think maybe a year ago or so, and I, I got into a bit of trouble for this because apparently it was deemed to be provocative, but, um, I, I still think that's the case. I think The deterrence that you get out of having a very large number of strike drones at your border, I think is, is pretty, uh, is pretty strong, and the reason is that if you turn up with tanks on the other side, let's say you turn up with 3000 tanks, 100,000 strike drones that are able to navigate without GPS, that are able to find their targets, obviously specifically focusing on tanks, will destroy those tanks, I think, in a matter of hours. It's very hard to defend against.

AI assessment note: “100,000 strike drones that are able to navigate without GPS... will destroy those tanks”

Q You said there about, kind of, drones having success. How do you measure success?

A I think it's the ability to hit a target, basically. And, ah, in, ah, you know, it's, it's hitting a target, um, that, um, itself uses, um, electronic warfare, so it tries to jam the signal of the drone. These are some of the bigger problems right now that, um, that Ukraine is facing, and that, that NATO will be facing in a peer conflict as well, or, or any other country in a peer conflict. So drones themselves, if they're just remote controlled drones, eventually have the problem that they can be jammed. That's GPS jamming, so it doesn't know where it is, or it's, Comes jamming, which means that the control inputs to the drone or the video feed back from the drone to the operator is, is jammed and, and therefore you can't use it. So this is the problem. I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a jamming station, the frontline every few kilometers right now. So it's almost impossible to, to get around jamming at the moment.

AI assessment note: “I think it's the ability to hit a target, basically.”

Q Why is the program of record huge? Sorry, what is, what is the program of record?

A It's, it's, it's an official program, um, by a government, um, that, you know, has a certain size, rather than, and I mentioned the Eurofight electronic warfare upgrade, that was, that was officially awarded, um, companies pitched for it, and eventually, you know, or consortia pitched for it, and eventually, consortia won it, which is SAP and NAS, um, in the end. Um, Those happen, um, regularly, and they tend to be quite large. They run over several years. By contrast, there are innovation projects, which is quite often almost a parallel track to all of this, where, um, there are smaller pots of money to prove that certain forces or, or, or nations can do innovation and defense. The problem is, you may kind of get 500 K from, from one of these projects, and you win it, and you, and you show to your VC, we've, we've made revenues. The jump from there to actually program of record is, is huge because all of the apparatus that's required to pitch for these programs, that isn't required for these innovation projects. So, so these, these kind of teams have a feeling I've, I've now taken the first step. Now the next step is a program of record, not realizing it's a completely different kettle of fish. And again, I had to learn all of this because for me it was natural.

AI assessment note: “It's, it's, it's an official program, um, by a government”

Q Do we underestimate the capabilities of Russia and Iran specifically?

A I mean, they're, they're, they're quite clear for everyone to see. Iran is producing a large number of drones already. They've been, um, you know, using and working on the Shahad, for example, for a long time. They've licensed that design to Russia. Russia is now manufacturing it itself. The software is getting better over time. Russia has the Lancet, uh, the, uh, the Zala Lancet, which is a capable strike drone, uh, quite, quite different from Rashad, which I think they've developed themselves. And the software for all of these is getting better as well. And so we're going to be faced, um, either, um, through Russia alone or through partners like Iran with adversaries that are committing to precise mass, large number of autonomous systems that we're going to have to counter one way or the other. And You can counter them, um, but you can't counter them with the current systems that we have. You can't just have exquisite, exquisite, um, systems like tanks or artillery guns that are not particularly well connected that take a while to, to take a shot. You need to work basically at the speed of software. You need to interconnect all of these systems, but crucially you need to have precise mass on your own side as well. You need to have the ability, however horrible that sounds, to have 1010 of thousands of strike drones. To deter.

AI assessment note: “they're quite clear for everyone to see. Iran is producing a large number of drones”

Q When you say, like, autonomy, software, and defense, can you unpack just how you see the future of warfare and conflict with AI and autonomy in mind?

A I mean, so we have, we can already look at Ukraine and look at the trends there, and the trend, um, even at the beginning there were some drones that were being used. You remember the, the, the TB-II's, for example, from Turkey, uh, the Barakta ones, um, over time that's evolved towards more and more drones. Um, initially it was to make up for, um, lack of artillery munitions. Um, now actually the drones themselves have, um, such Good, um, success that more and more are being built, and I, I believe Ukraine is, is building one and a half million FPV drones, the small first person view drones, drones a year. I think Russia is building roughly the same. So there's already a, a shift towards mass, um, and reasonably precise mass. What, what hasn't happened yet is that those drones are scalable, but that will happen in terms of their usage. At the moment you have one operator operating one drone. That's going to happen It's going to happen quite quickly that that's going to change, and you'll be able, as a single operator, to control multiple drones, and that trend, I think, we'll see, um, playing out as early as next year. Um, it's, it's not long now because the algorithms are all coming, and we know this because we have those algorithms too.

AI assessment note: “as a single operator, to control multiple drones”

Q What role does U.S. capital play in this journey for European companies? You obviously took money from GC, from Eli Gill, from some big U.S. players. I think you could sell as well. What role does U.S. cash play?

A It plays an important role, I think, later on. Um, the, the, the ability for European investors to provide growth capital, um, that's lower than it is in the U.S. But I don't think that's a problem. In fact, in, in many ways, I think that's probably a feature, not, not a bug, because I think exposure to US culture, um, but also investors is extremely useful. I, I, I was lucky to have it. Natural Motion Benchmark is our, uh, one of our investors, and with Mitch Lasky as our partner, and part of the reason why we eventually took off was also Mitch, and, and, and the way he thought about how big this company could be, Um, how should, I should think about portfolio, not think too small. That was extremely helpful. And so I think that injection of, um, US mentality to European companies at the right point is extremely helpful. And the cap table, you know, it's true for Helsing as well. It's, it's still Europe dominated. You know, we did our seed round, um, you know, entirely from European investors. Then Daniel and Prima Matera came in, um, again, European. So later on, um, you know, we, we took American money, but the company is still a European company.

AI assessment note: “It plays an important role, I think, later on.”

Q If that's what works that you've taken with you to Helsing, there are things that naturally don't work and you want to discard. What didn't work that you're like, no, leaving that behind?

A Um, I think one of the things that I, I didn't quite appreciate was how important hiring is, and I know everyone says that it's, team is the most important thing, and hiring should be a priority, but to really do it, to really do everything you can to get the very best people requires a different mindset, and actually requires a lot of time in your calendar as well, and with Natural Motion, we had a lot of great people, um, but we also, You know, eventually got, I think, into a rhythm of, of, of maybe hiring people that, um, were just there to add headcount, to get certain things done, um, to accelerate a project, and the reality was that almost never happened. In fact, what happened was that if you added more people, complexity went up. Uh, the company slowed down. It became much harder to manage, and we had to, we had to fix it a couple of times with, with quite large changes, including rifts, just to get the company to work again. And when we started Helsing, Um, I started the company with, with my co-founders, Gumbert and Niklas. We made a commitment from the beginning that that wouldn't happen to us, and that we would focus on hiring and really getting the really exceptional talent from the very beginning. And it transformed, I think, the company. I mean, Helsing is now a company that isn't even that large, but we, we, we try to just hire people that are exceptional, and w…

AI assessment note: “hiring people that, um, were just there to add headcount”

Q You said there about, kind of, drones having success. How do you measure success?

A I think it's the ability to hit a target, basically. And, ah, in, ah, you know, it's, it's hitting a target, um, that, um, itself uses, um, electronic warfare, so it tries to jam the signal of the drone. These are some of the bigger problems right now that, um, that Ukraine is facing, and that, that NATO will be facing in a peer conflict as well, or, or any other country in a peer conflict. So drones themselves, if they're just remote controlled drones, eventually have the problem that they can be jammed. That's GPS jamming, so it doesn't know where it is, or it's, Comes jamming, which means that the control inputs to the drone or the video feed back from the drone to the operator is, is jammed and, and therefore you can't use it. So this is the problem. I mean, there's a, there's a, there's a jamming station, the frontline every few kilometers right now. So it's almost impossible to, to get around jamming at the moment.

AI assessment note: “I think it's the ability to hit a target, basically.”

Q So I interrupted that, you there. So you need to want to performance manage, and a lot don't, because it's hard, you have to have hard conversations. What else?

A Yeah, so, so this is something I noticed when I was mainly angel investing in, in, in startups, is that, you know, you, you get a, eventually you get a certain number of people who are not a good fit for the company, and they They clog up the system in the company. They make everything harder. Uh, they create pockets of unhappiness because they feel, um, maybe neglected or not understood, um, or they don't fit into the culture, and you kind of tolerate it quite often as the founder, and you tolerate it up to a point where you think, this doesn't feel like my company anymore. Like, what happened? Um, that happened to me at Natural Motion, by the way, um, at some point, and it's really painful for a founder, but the reality is that if you want to counteract that, you have to Make performance management one of the main things that you do from the beginning. You have to commit to it early on, and that means that you have to do the performance management, but probably as importantly, you have to also do what we call performance management calibration with all the leaders. So what we do at Helsing is that every quarter, um, we get all the, one cohort, so one quarter of the leaders together, and they go through all the performance ratings that they gave, um, their people and their teams, and then Um, the, the leadership team listens to it and gives feedback, not necessarily on the per…

AI assessment note: “you have to also do what we call performance management calibration with all the leaders.”

Q You said about the tectonic shifting plates in the geopolitical landscape that you saw that made you want to move fast. What did you see that very few other people saw in the tectonic plates shifting?

A I think the watershed moment was the annexation of Crimea in 2014, um, by, by Putin. And, and as importantly, the, the reaction or lack of reaction by, by, um, European and, and Western governments in general. And we obviously, you know, Acknowledged it and, ah, and took note, but we didn't really understand the threat. And the danger, I think, even back then that that created was that you essentially allowed someone with territorial ambitions to, to do more. And it felt like the clock was ticking, um, until that was going to happen. And so when we, um, started Helsing in March, 2021, which now feels like a very different time, we, um, We actually put in, in our, one of our slides, um, that we thought there were going to be two galvanizing events. One of them was going to be an invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the other one an invasion of Taiwan by China. Um, so we got the Russia, um, Ukraine invasion right. What we got wrong was the timing, because we thought it was going to happen in 2025, but in the event it happened 11 months after we put that slide together. And so, Ever since then, we, we feel like it's, sadly, it is rational to be pessimistic at the moment, and it feels like, um, this hasn't quite fully sunk in, I think, in, you know, across our democratic societies.

AI assessment note: “watershed moment was the annexation of Crimea in 2014, um, by, by Putin”

Q When you say, like, autonomy, software, and defense, can you unpack just how you see the future of warfare and conflict with AI and autonomy in mind?

A I mean, so we have, we can already look at Ukraine and look at the trends there, and the trend, um, even at the beginning there were some drones that were being used. You remember the, the, the TB-II's, for example, from Turkey, uh, the Barakta ones, um, over time that's evolved towards more and more drones. Um, initially it was to make up for, um, lack of artillery munitions. Um, now actually the drones themselves have, um, such Good, um, success that more and more are being built, and I, I believe Ukraine is, is building one and a half million FPV drones, the small first person view drones, drones a year. I think Russia is building roughly the same. So there's already a, a shift towards mass, um, and reasonably precise mass. What, what hasn't happened yet is that those drones are scalable, but that will happen in terms of their usage. At the moment you have one operator operating one drone. That's going to happen It's going to happen quite quickly that that's going to change, and you'll be able, as a single operator, to control multiple drones, and that trend, I think, we'll see, um, playing out as early as next year. Um, it's, it's not long now because the algorithms are all coming, and we know this because we have those algorithms too.

AI assessment note: “you'll be able, as a single operator, to control multiple drones”

Q What role does U.S. capital play in this journey for European companies? You obviously took money from GC, from Eli Gill, from some big U.S. players. I think you could sell as well. What role does U.S. cash play?

A It plays an important role, I think, later on. Um, the, the, the ability for European investors to provide growth capital, um, that's lower than it is in the U.S. But I don't think that's a problem. In fact, in, in many ways, I think that's probably a feature, not, not a bug, because I think exposure to US culture, um, but also investors is extremely useful. I, I, I was lucky to have it. Natural Motion Benchmark is our, uh, one of our investors, and with Mitch Lasky as our partner, and part of the reason why we eventually took off was also Mitch, and, and, and the way he thought about how big this company could be, Um, how should, I should think about portfolio, not think too small. That was extremely helpful. And so I think that injection of, um, US mentality to European companies at the right point is extremely helpful. And the cap table, you know, it's true for Helsing as well. It's, it's still Europe dominated. You know, we did our seed round, um, you know, entirely from European investors. Then Daniel and Prima Matera came in, um, again, European. So later on, um, you know, we, we took American money, but the company is still a European company.

AI assessment note: “It plays an important role, I think, later on.”

Q corner of the world. Deal is trusted by over 40,000 businesses. Learn how they can help your business today by going to deal.com forward slash Senra. That is deal.com forward slash Senra. Okay, so the identification of what was missing in Europe, right, which leads to this mission that we need a European defense tech company, then the mission comes before the conviction, or the conviction comes before the mission?

A The mission comes first. And the mission is to protect our democracies. And I always say it's, um, it's, it's always a real privilege. I always feel like we have, um, we talk to our new starters every month and we always say to them, you know, it is a real privilege to work in a company. Um, at least we feel that's where the mission is so easy that we protect our democracies. That's what we're here for. Um, and, and lots of other companies, you know, have to spend time and go on an offsite retreat to come up with some kind of mission paragraph that everyone agrees on eventually. And we don't have that. It's, it is to protect our democracies. And we can point out where we're doing this right now with, you know, what we're doing with our deployed drones, for example, in, in, in Ukraine, and it makes everything easier. Um, we obviously never expected the Ukraine war to happen that quickly, but now that we are deployed, it's, you know, it's very concrete. Um, this mission is a, is a, is a real thing. And then the conviction, you know, comes that there need to be these kinds of companies and, and that they need to be built in Europe. And one other reason why we, Are building Helsing is also we, we wanted to build a big company in Europe. We honestly looked at, you know, Spotify as a, as a, as a beacon, as a, as an example of, you know, a large company you can build that is, that has…

AI assessment note: “The mission comes first. And the mission is to protect our democracies.”

Q Do you fear that we are falling further and further behind? Like everyone says we are.

A I, so I, I think we are falling behind, and that, but that trend is new, that, that already started a few years ago, and part of the reason we wanted to build Helsing was to show that you can build a company in Europe fast to scale in deep tech, and just provide a shortcut, um, that, you know, actually this is doable, and we wanted to show that it's doable, including the fundraising. Um, so I think Europe is falling behind, but it doesn't have to be that way. So, The things that we have in Europe, in particular talent, we have incredibly good talent, um, including on the engineering side. So we hire almost exclusively from Europe at the moment, not entirely, but, um, but almost exclusively. And the talent is, is amazing. The talent pool is amazing. Uh, people's attitudes are amazing. Um, there's none of this, um, kind of nine to five mentality. People really want to make a difference and, and they work hard and they work intensely Wherever that's required. So I think that's a myth.

AI assessment note: “I think we are falling behind, and that, but that trend is new”

Q What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A I used to think that, that you needed to make sure that there was always a degree of process, um, when teams work together on something and including something new. I have now learned that it's possible with exceptional people to let's, let's just let them get on with the job without any stand-ups, any predictions on deadlines, nothing. You just let them get on with the job and it, in a, in a Very fast changing environment that we had to deal with, for example, over the last few months, it is probably the most efficient way of, of actually making progress rather than being structured about it. And then eventually you have to move to structure obviously, but I probably wouldn't have thought that two years ago.

AI assessment note: “I used to think that, that you needed to make sure that there was always”

Q If that's what works that you've taken with you to Helsing, there are things that naturally don't work and you want to discard. What didn't work that you're like, no, leaving that behind?

A Um, I think one of the things that I, I didn't quite appreciate was how important hiring is, and I know everyone says that it's, team is the most important thing, and hiring should be a priority, but to really do it, to really do everything you can to get the very best people requires a different mindset, and actually requires a lot of time in your calendar as well, and with Natural Motion, we had a lot of great people, um, but we also, You know, eventually got, I think, into a rhythm of, of, of maybe hiring people that, um, were just there to add headcount, to get certain things done, um, to accelerate a project, and the reality was that almost never happened. In fact, what happened was that if you added more people, complexity went up. Uh, the company slowed down. It became much harder to manage, and we had to, we had to fix it a couple of times with, with quite large changes, including rifts, just to get the company to work again. And when we started Helsing, Um, I started the company with, with my co-founders, Gumbert and Niklas. We made a commitment from the beginning that that wouldn't happen to us, and that we would focus on hiring and really getting the really exceptional talent from the very beginning. And it transformed, I think, the company. I mean, Helsing is now a company that isn't even that large, but we, we, we try to just hire people that are exceptional, and w…

AI assessment note: “We made a commitment from the beginning that that wouldn't happen to us”

Q You said about the tectonic shifting plates in the geopolitical landscape that you saw that made you want to move fast. What did you see that very few other people saw in the tectonic plates shifting?

A I think the watershed moment was the annexation of Crimea in 2014, um, by, by Putin. And, and as importantly, the, the reaction or lack of reaction by, by, um, European and, and Western governments in general. And we obviously, you know, Acknowledged it and, ah, and took note, but we didn't really understand the threat. And the danger, I think, even back then that that created was that you essentially allowed someone with territorial ambitions to, to do more. And it felt like the clock was ticking, um, until that was going to happen. And so when we, um, started Helsing in March, 2021, which now feels like a very different time, we, um, We actually put in, in our, one of our slides, um, that we thought there were going to be two galvanizing events. One of them was going to be an invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the other one an invasion of Taiwan by China. Um, so we got the Russia, um, Ukraine invasion right. What we got wrong was the timing, because we thought it was going to happen in 2025, but in the event it happened 11 months after we put that slide together. And so, Ever since then, we, we feel like it's, sadly, it is rational to be pessimistic at the moment, and it feels like, um, this hasn't quite fully sunk in, I think, in, you know, across our democratic societies.

AI assessment note: “I think the watershed moment was the annexation of Crimea in 2014”

Q How do you think about that with that?

A It's similar with us. I mean, we're going, but Nicholas and I all come from different directions. Now obviously end up doing something similar, but we have maybe a different emphasis on, on the various things that we do. And the company of the complexity of Helsing, I mean, it's a defense company, so that comes with all kinds of complexities around, uh, obviously, um, government relations, um, go to market, security, um, export law, and many other things that is too much to stay on top of in addition to building the company, building the org, and everything else for one founder. And so the three of us have, um, different backgrounds, but we also just provide bandwidth And then the third thing that we do is, because so many decisions are difficult, um, we, we are sounding boards for each other, like, all the time. We are in touch all the time. We talk, I don't know how many times a day, and it, that would have been much harder as a single founder. I was a, a single founder at, um, at Natural Motion, and, um, at least for a long time was, was, was on my own as a founder, and it, it was much harder also to make the right decisions.

AI assessment note: “the three of us have, um, different backgrounds, but we also just provide bandwidth”

Q What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

A I used to think that, that you needed to make sure that there was always a degree of process, um, when teams work together on something and including something new. I have now learned that it's possible with exceptional people to let's, let's just let them get on with the job without any stand-ups, any predictions on deadlines, nothing. You just let them get on with the job and it, in a, in a Very fast changing environment that we had to deal with, for example, over the last few months, it is probably the most efficient way of, of actually making progress rather than being structured about it. And then eventually you have to move to structure obviously, but I probably wouldn't have thought that two years ago.

AI assessment note: “I used to think that... you needed... process... I have now learned”

Q When you go wrong, you also have to review yourself and review the hiring process that has got you to that state. When you've gone wrong in hiring, what did you not see that you should have seen?

A I think it can be all kinds of things. Um, it, it will sometimes be, um, culture fit. Uh, it will sometimes be, um, the willingness to go the extra mile, like to do whatever it takes. To get something done. It can sometimes be just technical performance. I mean, people might have aced it in, in their interview and in their, in their tests, but maybe if you give them a, a new problem, they, they, they're not able to do it. I think the, the key is to recognize it early, to recognize it in the first few months, to work obviously with people to improve, but if that doesn't work, then to part ways and do it amicably.

AI assessment note: “it will sometimes be, um, culture fit. Uh, it will sometimes be, um,”

Q Many people think that we are on the cusp of a defense spending boom. Do you think that's actually realistic? You mentioned there the two percent. We all appreciate it needs to go higher. Is that rational, and are we at the cusp?

A Yeah, I'm not sure whether it's a boom or not. I think we'll see some countries increase their defense budget a little bit. We'll see others, I mentioned Poland, increase it drastically, and particularly the, um, the, the countries that are most exposed, um, you know, to the, to the eastern flank, to the NATO eastern flank, Are more likely to increase their defense spending. It's already happening. It's happening in Scandinavia as well. Um, other parts in Europe, um, may or may not increase it as much. Um, that I think we'll have to see. I'm not sure I would call it a boom, um, though. I think it's a, an increase that will go into fixing a lot of things that are broken at the moment, and then some of that increase, um, will go into new equipment spend as well, but only some of it. And of that, there'll be a proportion that will need to go urgently to You know, what's called new defense, defense technology, but that will only be a part.

AI assessment note: “I'm not sure whether it's a boom or not.”

Q How does the company need to change with the integration of hardware? Respectfully, you said it's a software first company. We're a software engineers. Hardware is an entirely different rule game.

A It is and it isn't. Um, so it is in that there are many areas where you need to have hardware experts, um, and, and we've built an amazing team that obviously, you know, deals with things like the design, the components, but also the supply chain, and that's different from software. But you can think about hardware as software as well. You can You can optimize a lot of parts of hardware by shifting complexity into software, and you can also test hardware and software, and so we spend a lot of time building infrastructure for the entire company around simulation platforms, for example, AI infrastructure platforms, etc., and some of that technology is also applicable to hardware, so we've developed our drones extremely fast, and we've tested them extremely fast, and the reason we're getting to that kind of iteration speed, and it is all about iteration, just iterate, iterate, iterate, It's because we can move a lot of the testing into software, and only when, you know, we get to a certain point, we move it into hardware, we test it in hardware, and then we go back into software again. So these two things are, if you do it well, which we're trying to do, are extremely interlinked, and the best hardware companies, I think, are software companies, and vice versa.

AI assessment note: “You can optimize a lot of parts of hardware by shifting complexity into software”

Q Are primes delivering what they should be? And Matt Grimm very, kind of, articulately said that they simply just take too long.

A They probably do take too long. I think they're incentivized in different ways. Um, the US is probably, again, different to other countries. Every country is different, and the various primes are different as well. In general, they're not incentivized to Spend a lot of their own money on R&D. Um, I think it's probably less than five percent or so. Um, for a company like Helsing, it's almost all of it. I mean, we pre-finance almost everything, and that's why we raised quite a bit of money, because we need to be able to spend on developments before we actually, because first of all, we have to prove that it works, um, and we can't wait for governments to eventually get it and then fund it, and then in eight years, we have a system. We, we need a system in eight months, basically. Or, or let's make it a year or two years.

AI assessment note: “They probably do take too long. I think they're incentivized in different ways.”

Q Why is the program of record huge? Sorry, what is, what is the program of record?

A It's, it's, it's an official program, um, by a government, um, that, you know, has a certain size, rather than, and I mentioned the Eurofight electronic warfare upgrade, that was, that was officially awarded, um, companies pitched for it, and eventually, you know, or consortia pitched for it, and eventually, consortia won it, which is SAP and NAS, um, in the end. Um, Those happen, um, regularly, and they tend to be quite large. They run over several years. By contrast, there are innovation projects, which is quite often almost a parallel track to all of this, where, um, there are smaller pots of money to prove that certain forces or, or, or nations can do innovation and defense. The problem is, you may kind of get 500 K from, from one of these projects, and you win it, and you, and you show to your VC, we've, we've made revenues. The jump from there to actually program of record is, is huge because all of the apparatus that's required to pitch for these programs, that isn't required for these innovation projects. So, so these, these kind of teams have a feeling I've, I've now taken the first step. Now the next step is a program of record, not realizing it's a completely different kettle of fish. And again, I had to learn all of this because for me it was natural.

AI assessment note: “It's, it's, it's an official program, um, by a government”

Q So how do you go about trying to explain that to them? Like, how do you just make it obvious? Do you just do it through product demonstrations? Yeah.

A I mean, it's like with everything else, you, um, you, you, you do product demonstrations, you show what the capabilities are. We've done this a lot with drones and then, and, and to honestly, everyone's credit, people do get it. I mean, it's like, like people complain about procurement is so slow and, and governments are so slow. Yes. But then when they do get it, it goes very fast. Like the, the, the large, um, striking contracts that happened, happened really quickly. Um, with political support, with, um, support of the procurement agency, and, and they went through all in record time. And now, if anything, I think that the companies, you know, are really under pressure to deliver all of this stuff really fast. So, it's like, we, we, we all complained about it in the past, but it's a bit of a legacy problem. I think, um, procurement has got faster, and, and the realization that these things have to happen is happening faster too. And, and, you know, there will be big, um, autonomous hydrogen programs in Europe as well now. Two years ago, there was nothing. Even one year ago, there was nothing, but it's now happening.

AI assessment note: “you do product demonstrations, you show what the capabilities are. We've done this a lot”

Q to find ways to offset, and that was the original idea. Like, he discovered Apache Corporation, which winds up being this massive oil and gas company, because of the work that he was doing in tax Planning and accounting for relatively small businesses. I feel there is some kind of connection between your first company and your second that I'm trying to get to. Am I just wrong on this?

A So I don't think it was that direct necessarily. One thing that I've always felt with everything I ended up doing is I think is that I ended up doing something slightly different to maybe what the mainstream was. And part of the reasons I've never felt kind of part of the group of the peer group, like I never as a biologist and I did a lot of biology and I loved it, but I never really felt like I was like part of the biology group, and that made it a little bit easier to do different things. That's why I ended up just doing software and simulation rather than go out into the field and watch animals and, um, dissect animals. I never liked that stuff. I wanted to do something slightly different stuff. With gaming, I also never felt part of the gaming group and culture the same way, and as a result, I think we ended up doing quite different games that I remember, like, the pricing for our games was very different to anyone else's.

AI assessment note: “So I don't think it was that direct necessarily.”

Q How do you think about that with that?

A It's similar with us. I mean, we're going, but Nicholas and I all come from different directions. Now obviously end up doing something similar, but we have maybe a different emphasis on, on the various things that we do. And the company of the complexity of Helsing, I mean, it's a defense company, so that comes with all kinds of complexities around, uh, obviously, um, government relations, um, go to market, security, um, export law, and many other things that is too much to stay on top of in addition to building the company, building the org, and everything else for one founder. And so the three of us have, um, different backgrounds, but we also just provide bandwidth And then the third thing that we do is, because so many decisions are difficult, um, we, we are sounding boards for each other, like, all the time. We are in touch all the time. We talk, I don't know how many times a day, and it, that would have been much harder as a single founder. I was a, a single founder at, um, at Natural Motion, and, um, at least for a long time was, was, was on my own as a founder, and it, it was much harder also to make the right decisions.

AI assessment note: “we are sounding boards for each other, like, all the time.”

Q So I interrupted that, you there. So you need to want to performance manage, and a lot don't, because it's hard, you have to have hard conversations. What else?

A Yeah, so, so this is something I noticed when I was mainly angel investing in, in, in startups, is that, you know, you, you get a, eventually you get a certain number of people who are not a good fit for the company, and they They clog up the system in the company. They make everything harder. Uh, they create pockets of unhappiness because they feel, um, maybe neglected or not understood, um, or they don't fit into the culture, and you kind of tolerate it quite often as the founder, and you tolerate it up to a point where you think, this doesn't feel like my company anymore. Like, what happened? Um, that happened to me at Natural Motion, by the way, um, at some point, and it's really painful for a founder, but the reality is that if you want to counteract that, you have to Make performance management one of the main things that you do from the beginning. You have to commit to it early on, and that means that you have to do the performance management, but probably as importantly, you have to also do what we call performance management calibration with all the leaders. So what we do at Helsing is that every quarter, um, we get all the, one cohort, so one quarter of the leaders together, and they go through all the performance ratings that they gave, um, their people and their teams, and then Um, the, the leadership team listens to it and gives feedback, not necessarily on the per…

AI assessment note: “you have to also do what we call performance management calibration with all the leaders”