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Q All right, so we're going to talk V to G. I want to start from the technical perspective. What's actually required for a vehicle to discharge its battery into the grid?

A Yeah, there's three key components. The first is a bi-directional electric vehicle. It has to have the ability to draw power from the battery and send it to buildings or to the grid. The second piece is you have to have a bi-directional charger that can both send power to the vehicle and can also receive power and send it through the charger back to buildings with the grid. And the third piece is you need Uh, some sort of software platform that manages and optimizes that power flow. It responds to constraints that are established by, uh, the customer, the owner of the EV to ensure that the vehicle, uh, is first and foremost providing the mobility services, uh, that, uh, the vehicle was purchased for from the consumer. So those, those three pieces. And, uh, you know, we can take it, uh, another, uh, level, um, particularly around where the conversion Of the power from DC. We know we take DC power from a battery, and we convert it to AC power for use in buildings in the grid, and there's, there's two different flavors of architecture out there, and I'm happy to talk about that if you think that would be of interest.

AI assessment note: “there's three key components. The first is a bi-directional electric vehicle.”

Q Yeah, let's do that. Talk about how you can configure it. And then, and then we'll talk about sort of like where we are today in terms of those. Do we have those three things out in the wild and where?

A Yeah, absolutely. So there's, um, what we call a DC and an AC architecture, and that really defines where the conversion, uh, in a device called an inverter, which is a grid interactive inverter. It takes the DC power and converts to AC power. As I mentioned before, for the DC architecture, that conversion happens Offboard the vehicle. It's either in the charger or a wall box that's adjacent to, um, to the charger. So it's offboard. So it's drawing DC power from the EV, converting it to AC power offboard and sending it to the building or to the grid. And then, um, the other flavor is V to G AC, and this is where their onboard, uh, conversion occurs. So the vehicle sends Uh, AC power from the vehicle to an AC bidirectional charger. And so just to give you a sense of, uh, where we are commercially, the, the Tesla Cybertruck, uh, V to G product is an AC architecture. So there's an onboard, uh, inverter capabilities and the Ford F- one-fifty and the, um, GM, uh, suite of EVs that have V to H and, uh, increasingly V to G are based on that offboard, uh, V to G DC architecture.

AI assessment note: “just to give you a sense of, uh, where we are commercially, the, the Tesla Cybertruck”

Q the cyber truck. We talked about the F- one-fifty. We talked about GM generally, and then you just mentioned Rivian, but orient me. If I, if I want, if I'm a, try to buy a passenger vehicle and I want to do V to G today, like what are my suite of options and what does it look like for me to actually enable V to G on those options?

A Yeah. Uh, you know, Shell, the way I really think of about it is a V to G system, which would include both The EV and the charger. And then, you know, if the OEM is enabling full V to G capabilities, that will be part of kind of the software, the app that comes, you know, with, with your purchase. So today, um, when you think about, um, you know, what are the compatible EVs and bi-dimensional chargers on the market? Um, you know, it's a fairly limited number of, of, of, of options. Um, so when I, uh, Before, um, I joined Vehicle Grid Integration Council as a senior advisor, I was working for a company called Fermata Energy, and we deployed dozens of bidirectional charging projects across the country using a Nissan LEAF, which was bidirectional when it was first introduced in 2015, and we had built our own bidirectional DC charger based on the CHAdeMO platform, and so we were deploying those systems across the country Of course, the CHAdeMO standard is now gone out of favor in the United States, and so the new offerings are based either on CCS or the NAC, uh, the North American charging standard, and so, uh, the Tesla system, uh, with the Cybertruck is commercially available today with that, uh, full suite of the truck and, uh, their charging system, and then, um, we've got kind of the OEM kind of package offerings, which is the Ford F-I-F-Lightning and their Ford Station Pro wi…

AI assessment note: “the Tesla system, uh, with the Cybertruck is commercially available today”

Q or whatever. Um, and then it's kind of compelling, but if you're trying to do V to G, the monetization opportunities aren't really there. But it sounds like you're saying when, when the monetization opportunities arrive, when these utility programs arrive, or if people are doing aggregated distributed capacity, or whatever, Then there's enough juice in the revenue that you might pay back pretty quickly. Is that what I'm hearing?

A Yeah, and you know, I think you can think about, like, stacking the value of, you know, the home backup power value, and stack that with, um, you know, the incremental value that you receive from, from providing grid services to the utility. And so what we've seen is, uh, both the Ford system and the GM system was originally marketed and sold for V to H, and then through a software upgrade, they were able to unlock the full V to G capability. For those customers located in those utility service territories where there was a monetization opportunity, um, you know, we see have opportunity in, in, in California and some utility programs, some pilot programs, Massachusetts, New York. We're seeing, uh, emerging opportunity in Maryland, Colorado, Connecticut. So, you know, I do think, um, you know, as you, uh, unlock that capability that there will be increasing opportunities for consumers To, uh, add to the value of their bidirectional charging system beyond the simple, uh, home, uh, emergency backup functionality.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, and you know, I think you can think about, like, stacking the value”

Q And so given that, like, why, why hasn't GM or Ford, why haven't they gone AC native? Is it that they're not like, they're not yet fully VDG native, you know, and it's sort of like, we want it to be an add-on, not endemic to the vehicle, or is it something else?

A Well, you know, that's a great question. I don't know that I have, you know, Super great visibility into their internal decision-making processes, but one of the, uh, clear issues is around, um, standards. Um, the, the V to G AC U L standards literally just like a month ago were approved. The U L 17 41 SC, which is, um, the safety standard for, um, V to G AC systems. And so this is to comply with I triple E 15 11 dot eight 15 11, uh, It's, uh, the, the governance for interconnecting of DERs to the grid system. So to date today, there wasn't really a, um, approved standard for V to G AC, and now that's just very recently changed. There is another pathway for getting, uh, interconnection approval for V to G AC systems, which Tesla has, has pursued in some jurisdictions, uh, and we can get into that as well. So I think one of the issues where the standards weren't yet developed and, um, there perhaps was, um, You know, a simpler, um, more direct pathway for them to kind of do this, uh, with the DC architecture initially, but we are seeing companies, uh, including, I think Rivian has announced that they've got, uh, their R-II coming to market, which will be a, uh, BDG AC architecture with an onboard, uh, inverter, and there are, um, other auto manufacturers, uh, as well that I think are, um, seriously considering Pivoting to that AC architecture.

AI assessment note: “one of the, uh, clear issues is around, um, standards.”

Q skeptical of V to G in the past, right? I think that the main ones, apart from the economics, is there enough value there, have largely been, will it degrade my battery? Is it going to break my warranty? Uh, sort of like, uh, you know, logistical, I guess, uh, considerations like that. How do you think about that set of things? What have we learned about that over time?

A Yeah, no, that's the first question I get whenever I'm at a conference, you know, well, what about the battery and the warranties? And, and that's a real important, um, consideration, uh, very important. And, uh, you know, I gotta say there's, it's, it's quite a bit of gray area. Um, again, uh, referencing the company I used to work at, Fermata Energy, uh, we actually worked very closely with Nissan, and Nissan actually, um, Publicly stated in their warranty that use of the Fermata energy charger and bi-directional charging platform would not war, uh, would not, um, impact the warranty on their, their product. So that was kind of the first, I think, in, in, in the nation, in the world where an OEM said, yes, we're going to approve the use of this vehicle for, uh, bi-directional charging. Um, that hasn't, there hasn't been much, uh, beyond that other than, uh, Ford, I believe in their warranty, um, Uh, indicates that, uh, use of the F one 50 for home backup power wouldn't void the warranty. So there is, um, you know, a lot of work to be done there and clarity among the OEMs to give consumers the confidence that if they use this capability, that, uh, it wouldn't, um, void the warranty. And I, I've gotta believe that given that they're bringing this, uh, capability, integrating into electric vehicles and marketing as such that, uh, That will have to mature, and the OEMs will have …

AI assessment note: “Nissan actually, um, Publicly stated in their warranty that use of the Fermata energy charger”

Q You're, you're obviously a bull on the space, but like, how do you see it going?

A Yeah, no, no, I, I appreciate that question. And, you know, I often use, um, rooftop solar as an analogy to, to vehicle to grid. Like, um, you know, when at some point solar was expensive, it didn't make any sense. Why would you connect to the grid? And then what, uh, launched the rooftop solar industry was regulation. Right? Each state had to pass interconnection, had to provide net metering, compensation, and many states offered incentives, and so there was a view that rooftop solar was a public good, that we should encourage consumers, um, because of the benefits, the public good of rooftop solar, and so they put in place the regulations and the policies. Fast forward 20 years, we've got a multi-billion dollar rooftop solar industry. The price of solar has come down dramatically, And, um, similarly, I think, um, we need policy leadership to say, yes, V to G is an important part of the energy, um, uh, ecosystem. There have been numerous studies that have shown that electric vehicles are the single largest source of grid flexibility that will be on the grid in the not too distant future, and that, uh, we need to, uh, put in place, um, policies and regulations that will support consumers On their journey to adopt this technology. So, you know, I do think, I think you're right. We can go in different directions, um, like any new emerging technology, um, there isn't certainty, bu…

AI assessment note: “similarly, I think, um, we need policy leadership to say, yes, V to G”

Q Like, does it make sense to do it? So walk me through the cost, I guess, first, and I know this, as we said before, this differs whether you're, you have a cyber truck or whether you have a something else, but what is the, what is the upfront, what's the capex of making yourself V to G capable? And then as it stands today, what does monetization look like?

A Yeah, no, that's, that's a, it's a, it's a great question. It's the billion dollar question. And, you know, we are again, early days, limited production, We're not manufacturing these chargers at scale, and so, you know, today, like a, a VDG DC system, um, is gonna be, uh, quite expensive, around, you know, eight to 10 K, uh, for the full installation. Um, I don't have good numbers on, uh, the VDG AC. Uh, the, the belief is that that will be, uh, significantly shrink the cost differential between a unidirectional and a bidirectional charging system. Um, so, you know, it's hard to say exactly what that differential is today. Um, I would guess somewhere in, you know, the high hundreds to thousands or something, 1000 to something in that range. So it is really, it, it's difficult to, um, really pinpoint what that, uh, incremental cost is for bidirectional, um, given kind of the early stage of the industry and the limited deployments that we've seen, seen, uh, nationally. But one thing I think it's important to, to talk about is, is you talked about what's, what's the, what's the value of having that bi-directional capability, and so the only reason you would invest in a bi-directional charging system if there is some sort of value or opportunity to earn revenue from having that capability. And in that case, there are very limited opportunities across the country to actually moneti…

AI assessment note: “a VDG DC system, um, is gonna be, uh, quite expensive, around, you know, eight to 10 K”

Q programs, in the, in the software there, you know, you can sort of set parameters. Say I don't want my battery to go below whatever percent or something like that. How are you seeing the interaction between those types of settings that people are setting up and then the relative to the value that that battery actually has, whether in a utility market program or just as whole home backup?

A Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, there, there, that's a great question. There isn't a lot of, um, good data out there in terms of what consumers are, um, placing in terms of limits on, on how, uh, the EV can be used for these programs, but I do think, you know, first and foremost, the EV, as I mentioned at the beginning, is, is, is purchased for mobility, for transportation purposes, and so when it makes sense, when the vehicle is available, And it doesn't restrict mobility, then that, that, that vehicle, um, could provide, um, home backup power and could provide, um, grid services, uh, as appropriate. And so, you know, I do think that any type of program does have to fundamentally preserve the mobility capabilities of the vehicle that it was purchased for. But when you think about, I mean, my EV sits in my garage. I work from home, you know, It sits in my garage for, you know, days at a time without ever being used. Um, and, um, I think there's other folks, um, you know, that it wouldn't make sense, but where they're doing long commutes every day. I often, uh, talk about, um, you know, V to G as part of the sharing economy. Not everyone chooses to use their personal vehicle to drive people from the airport to the hotel every day, every, on the weekends, you know, for, through Uber. Um, but there's enough people that are willing to do that where their lifestyle, their opportunity costs are su…

AI assessment note: “There isn't a lot of, um, good data out there in terms of what consumers”