Jan 2, 2019 · 32m · a16z
a16z Podcast | A Podcast about Podcasts
Roman Mars · 18m spoken Sonal Chokshi · 7m spoken Ryan Hoover · 3m spoken Erik Torenberg · 1m spoken
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this meta-discussion on the a16z podcast, host and guests Roman Mars (99% Invisible), Ryan Hoover, and Eric Torenberg (Product Hunt) explore the evolution, technology, storytelling craft, discovery challenges, and business models of the podcasting medium.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. The host holds 28.1% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 3.2 Guest disagreement 1.6 The host pushing back 2.2
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 23:30 Roman Rejects Mid-Roll Ad Mandate
Roman forcefully dismisses advertisers' insistence on mid-roll placements, telling them their assumptions are wrong and claiming he can bluster his way into proving post-roll ads work better.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 4:33 Host Calls Out Curation ConflationSonal directly challenges the guests' premise regarding discovery, pointing out a conflation between channel unbundling and curation while asserting average users do not custom-curate lists.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 21:13 Dispelling the Podcast Data MythRoman reframes the host's belief about inadequate podcast analytics by demonstrating that traditional radio Nielsen ratings were merely an older, accepted lie compared to raw download counts.
The host holds their own ▶ 22:09 Host Cites Wired Analytics ExpertiseSonal draws on her background at Wired using Chartbeat to counter Roman's stance, arguing that web analytics provide granular drop-off insights that podcasting severely lacks.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Origin Story of 99% Invisible and Podcasting Growth | 2 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Sonal asks a standard introductory question about Roman's transition to podcasting and shares a personal anecdote about her old Volvo car. Roman provides historical context on podcasting milestones like iTunes and Bluetooth sync, educating the host on industry growth. | |
| Podcast Discovery, Curation Challenges, and Cross-Promotion | 5 | 3 | 2 | 6 | Sonal explicitly pushes back on the guests' framing, noting a conflation between curation and unbundling and arguing that only tech early adopters custom-curate lists. Roman agrees regarding topic-based discovery and explains how cross-promotion on existing shows acts as the primary discovery mechanism. | |
| Online Communities, Live Streaming, and Listener Support | 1 | 4 | 1 | 0 | The guests lead the conversation discussing discovery platforms, online communities, and live streaming. Roman explains his creative process, Kickstarter history, and public radio listener dynamics while the host mostly listens. | |
| Voice Performance, Editing Craft, and Medium Perception | 4 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Sonal asks insightful questions about voice performance and draws a comparison to the early days of blogging versus print publishing. Roman explains the technical craft of voice projection, thought-core music, and editing designed for distracted listeners. | |
| Content Marketing and Branded Podcasts | 6 | 2 | 1 | 3 | Sonal demonstrates expertise by referencing Marco Arment's XOXO conference talk on brand intimacy and offering a broader definition of modern brand collectives. Roman agrees and expands on how a host acts as a proxy for corporate sponsors. | |
| Elements of Good Storytelling and Podcast Analytics | 2 | 5 | 3 | 1 | Roman pushes back against the popular industry narrative that podcast metrics are uniquely poor, arguing that traditional radio ratings were simply an older agreed-upon lie. He educates the panel on story editing discipline over arbitrary runtime constraints. | |
| Web Analytics Comparison and Sponsorship Dynamics | 7 | 3 | 4 | 6 | Sonal leverages her experience at Wired tracking Chartbeat data to challenge Roman's acceptance of loose analytics, insisting that industry standards are necessary. Roman displays combativeness toward advertisers who demand mid-roll ads, claiming he aggressively proves his post-roll placements perform better. | |
| Panelists' Personal Listening Preferences | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | A casual segment where the host and guests share personal listening preferences. Sonal cites niche shows like Cooking Issues and indie New York dating podcasts, showcasing her range of media consumption without conflict. | |
| San Francisco Flag Redesign and Community Artifacts | 4 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Sonal highlights how listener engagement generates physical artifacts like architectural diagrams before asking about intimacy in technology. Roman delivers an expert monologue explaining how audio directly controls human imagination because listeners do not have ear lids. |
Statements from this episode (17)
Mars: Podcasting Grew Steadily for 10 Years Before Hitting Critical Mass
“You know, people know podcasts more than they ever have before, but there really has been a steady growth for about 10 years. Like, it's been slowly climbing, and I think it just hit that weird threshold effect where enough people know it that it feels like ev…”
Roman Mars barely listens to broadcast radio despite his public radio career
“I devoted my life to public radio. I'm, you know, like, I listen to public radio all the time. I barely turn on the radio anymore.”
Roman Mars: DVR and Netflix normalized curated entertainment, driving podcast adoption
“I think people are used to curating their lives a little bit more with DVR and Netflix. They're used to, like, programming their own entertainment, and podcasting doesn't seem like that big of a deal anymore.”
Ryan Hoover: Podcasting creation is exploding at the same scale as video
“The video and the TV space and even the movie space as well is there's an explosion of creation happening there. And the same is, is absolutely true for podcasts.”
Chokshi: Custom podcast curation is limited to tech early adopters
“Because I don't think people are really custom curating these perfect lists for themselves. I think only tech early adopters are doing that sort of thing.”
Mars: Cross-promotion on other podcasts is the primary discovery tool
“I can tell you as somebody who does a show, the things that work so far are basically being on other podcasts. The thing that introduced me to new audience. Radio lab featured my show about three and a half years ago. And it was a huge thing for me. So that's …”
Mars: 80% of the world remains unfamiliar with podcasts
“I mean, still, it's like, 80% of the world still doesn't know what the hell this is. It still has some, a lot of room to grow.”
Torenberg: Top 50 podcasts capture 90% of listener traffic share
“The top 50 podcasts have something like 90% of the traffic of the share, and that, you know, more and more people are creating podcasts every day, and they're actually creating a show about, you know, what are the gems that are not in the top 50.”
Roman Mars: One podcast listener is worth 10,000 radio listeners
“I think podcasting just eclipses the public radio connection. I mean, I would rather have one podcast listener than 10,000 radio listeners. It's that important.”
Roman Mars: Audio hosts should perform rather than sound unmodulated
“I mean, this is something that's sort of anathema to public radio often, because it's about you sound the way you're supposed to sound in a way, like there's a real premium placed on that, which I think is nonsense. I think being a performer, And being a good …”
Roman Mars: Podcasts must be written for multi-tasking listeners
“I guarantee you are doing something else while you were listening to me at the same time. You are definitely watching dishes. You are driving, you are doing something else. So I have to write it in such a way so that it works for that type of listener and work…”
Roman Mars: Podcasting is no longer seen as inferior to traditional media
“I don't think that there's this notion that it's risky to go into podcasting, that it's lesser than I think it feels like the most exciting thing. I think it's equivalent to the kind of the startup world where, you know, you could have had a, you know, a great…”
Roman Mars: Podcasters Serve Audiences Best by Editing for Story
“To serve your audience really well is to serve the story and not necessarily listen to them when they say, I just want you to keep talking and talking and talking. And so you edit to just serve the story.”
Roman Mars: Traditional Radio Ratings Are More Problematic Than Podcast Downloads
“Nielsen ratings and Arbitron ratings for radio and stuff, I think those are way more problematic than my downloads.”
Chokshi: Fragmented podcast analytics tools cause creators to miss key insights
“When it's something where you have a hodgepodge of very different tools, and one tool will measure RSS, and one won't, and another will include demographics, and another won't, you're just, there's just a lot of insight, I think, that people miss.”
Hoover: Podcasting Enables Long-Tail Niche Audiences Like the Web
“And just like the internet, you can now find a niche, like a tiny little seemingly small little place for you to geek out about some sort of topic or some sort of thing or some personality that you're really attracted to. And so podcasting, just the nature of …”