Jan 2, 2019 · 26m · a16z
a16z Podcast | Addiction vs Popularity in the Age of Virality
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In this episode of the a16z podcast, host Hannah discusses the science of popularity and tech addiction with authors Derek Thompson and Adam Alter. Together, they explore how digital abundance, engineered familiarity, and behavioral design shape hitmaking, media consumption, and compulsive tech habits in modern culture.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
The host as informed peer 2.0 Guest teaching 4.4 Guest disagreement 0.8 The host pushing back 0.2
speaking balance: gold is the host, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 23:37 Derek pushes back on framing obsession as purely bad
Derek Thompson directly challenges Adam Alter's focus on technology addiction by arguing that consumer obsession is actually evidence of brilliant product design and thrilling success.
Hardest push from the host ▶ 10:30 Host questions the goldfish attention span claimThe host directly questions a viral claim made by guest Adam Alter in previous media interviews, asking point-blank whether the scientific evidence actually supports it.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 4:01 Adam reframes addiction versus toleranceAdam Alter corrects common assumptions regarding technology addiction by explaining that frequent exposure creates tolerance, making familiar products less addictive in a clinical sense.
The host holds their own ▶ 21:00 Host connects mere exposure to deja vu dynamicsThe host showcases her own grasp of psychological concepts by comparing the mere exposure effect discussed in Derek's book to the neurological misfiling mechanisms behind deja vu.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | The host as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | The host pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| The Concept of Cult Hits vs. Majoritarian Popularity | 1 | 6 | 0 | 0 | Derek Thompson explains how modern hits function as cult hits rather than majority phenomena, introducing concepts like sneaky familiarity and the mere exposure effect. The host serves as an attentive listener, prompting further explanation with basic clarifying questions. | |
| Addiction, Tolerance, and Product Familiarity | 1 | 5 | 1 | 0 | Adam Alter clarifies that familiarity builds tolerance rather than clinical addiction, gently reframing popular misconceptions about addictive technology. Derek Thompson adds statistics about the exponential growth of media since the 1980s while the host listens and reacts. | |
| Eradication of Stopping Rules and Binge Behavior | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Adam Alter introduces the concept of eradicating stopping rules in digital media, using casino design as an analogy. The host demonstrates active engagement by synthesizing these ideas into the phrase 'the end of the ending,' which Derek Thompson warmly endorses. | |
| Monetizing Familiarity and the Shrinking Attention Span | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | The host brings up a specific quote from an interview where Adam claimed human attention spans are shorter than goldfish, asking if it holds up. Adam candidly admits it is a juicy factoid that might not withstand scientific scrutiny, using it to explain attention as a muscle. | |
| Distinguishing Popularity from Celebrity | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Derek Thompson distinguishes between popularity (products) and celebrity (people), illustrating with the example of Mike Trout. The host adds observations about social media amplifying cult followings, which Derek links to the majority illusion. | |
| Engineering Addictive Experiences vs. Formulas for Success | 2 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Derek Thompson presents a logical syllogism arguing why no formula for success can exist, citing the historical release of Rock Around the Clock. The host tracks his logic closely, offering brief supportive interjections as he outlines the role of luck and distribution. | |
| The Impressionist Art Study and Mere Exposure | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | The host specifically references James Cutting's Impressionist study from Derek's book. After Derek details the study, the host connects the findings to psychological theories of deja vu, demonstrating solid conceptual synthesis. | |
| Digital Distraction, Devices, and Social Isolation | 2 | 3 | 4 | 0 | Adam Alter explains how the presence of smartphones degrades interpersonal connection. Derek Thompson politely intervenes with a contrarian perspective, questioning whether driving users to obsession is actually a sign of product success rather than a purely negative outcome. | |
| Balancing Novelty with Familiarity and Podcast Conclusion | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Derek Thompson summarizes the core thesis of balancing novelty and familiarity, sharing real-world examples from Spotify's Discover Weekly algorithm and Apple's Macintosh design. The host closes out the episode. |
Statements from this episode (27)
Thompson: In an age of abundance, every hit is a cult hit
“Trump is a cult hit, and perhaps every single hit in an age of abundance is a cult hit, adored by a minority, but from a majoritarian perspective, broadly unpopular.”
Thompson: People are drawn to new ideas reminiscent of old ones
“People are most reliably drawn to new ideas that remind them of old ideas.”
Thompson: 90% of music listening is repeat consumption
“90% of the time that we're listening to music, We're listening to a piece of a song that we've already heard before.”
Thompson: Owning distribution controls audience media consumption
“If you own the channels of distribution, then you own the means of exposure. You get to determine what people see, what people listen to, what people watch.”
Alter: Most popular consumer products are fundamentally harmless
“I think most popular products are basically Fairly innocuous.”
Alter: Familiar experiences are less addictive due to rapid tolerance
“Things that are familiar to you actually are less likely to be addictive. You develop a tolerance really fast.”
Thompson: North American movie production has grown sevenfold since the 1990s
“Since the 19 nineties, the number of movies made in the North American market has grown by a factor of seven.”
Thompson: Original scripted TV shows have grown sevenfold since early 2000s
“Since the early 2000, the number of original scripted shows on television has grown by a factor of Seven.”
Alter: Continued engagement, not initial interest, makes media a hit
“What makes something a hit or what makes something popular or successful is continued engagement. It's not that initial engagement. It's the fact that you don't stop being interested.”
Alter: Modern digital media eradicates traditional stopping rules
“One of the big trends I think in, in media today is the eradication of stopping rules. So you think about the way we consume media in the whole of the twenties century, everything had a natural endpoint, or at least the suggestion of an endpoint. Books have ch…”
Alter: Stopping videos before cliffhangers prevents binge-watching
“You want to basically short-circuit these attempts to eradicate stopping cues. You stop watching five minutes before the end of the episode, before the cliffhanger arrives, and then every time you watch from the last five minutes of one episode to the last fiv…”
Thompson: Half of top 21st-century movies are sequels or adaptations
“Half of the top 10 movies in America every single year this century are sequels, adaptations, and reboots.”
Alter: Attention span functions like a muscle requiring exercise
“The attention span is a lot like a muscle that you have to exercise to improve.”
Thompson: Social media feeds never accurately reflect broader public opinion
“It's the illusion that your social network is accurately reflective of the world. And we should just try to build the instinct to think that it never is. That just because something seems ubiquitous to our local communities almost never means that it's necessa…”
Thompson: In a fragmented culture, most media products are not for you
“Just remember that in a world where popularity is cultish, most products are not for you.”
Thompson: A formula for success cannot exist because norms yield average outcomes
“There's a very, like, simple, like, syllogism for why there could never, ever be a formula for success. That means that someone's discovered it, right? And if one person's discovered it, then probably several people have discovered this formula for success. Th…”
Thompson: Distribution path is often more decisive than product design
“What's the story of this product's distribution? How did it find its market? Because that story is ultimately, or at least often, more descriptive of its ultimate success.”
Thompson: Repetition drives consumer preference among low-information audiences
“When you're dealing with a consumer demographic that doesn't know a whole lot about a certain subject, that at that point, lots of repetition and lots of familiarity can really bake in liking.”
Thompson: Political advertising only works on low-information voters
“An example of this in politics would be that political advertisements don't work at all when people have decided that they like Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump, but local elections will where the viewers don't know either of the candidates involved, right? Tha…”
Thompson: People mistake familiarity and reputation for actual liking
“Certainly one thing that's happening when people consider a famous artwork to be good without, you know, deeply thinking about it is that they're conflating familiarity and reputation with liking.”
Alter: Obsessive engagement with technology fulfills unmet psychological needs
“This tendency to engage obsessively over and over again with a certain experience Is designed to treat some psychological need that isn't being met another way.”
Alter: Inactive smartphones on tables diminish conversation quality between strangers
“There's this amazing study showing that if you sit across from someone else, and there's a smartphone on the table, even if it's inert, it's not actually being used. The conversation that you have with that person, if that person is a stranger, will be diminis…”
Thompson: Extreme user defenses signal extraordinary product design success
“And if a product is designed such that the consumer has to employ meticulous, complicated strategies to stop using it, that's an extraordinary sign that something was done right to a certain extent.”
Alter: Defending against addictive design is a historically unprecedented challenge
“The only reason we're having this discussion was because there are people out there today who are so good at designing products who have such great teams of behavioral experts they've put together. That we need to discuss how to react against those products, h…”
Thompson: Selling novel products requires making them familiar
“To sell something familiar, the key is to make it surprising, but to sell something surprising, the key is to make it familiar.”
Thompson: Discover Weekly engagement dropped when Spotify removed familiar songs
“Spotify, when they were initially designing their incredible program, Discover Weekly, they initially wanted it to be entirely new songs. But a bug in the algorithm accidentally let through some familiar songs as they were testing internally. So they fixed the…”