The Exchanges

Q Seems like intelligent as an end result, especially because being from America, I know just how ridiculous patents can be, and, and the court process, and people basically suing each other over basically nothing, so I'm really glad to know that our DNA is protected if it's not manipulated. Let's go back to the, the main point, which is what is a patent?

A Well, a patent is actually a form of property, and that's one reason why these fights have been so fraught. Patents are the only legally permitted monopoly right outside of, say, highly regulated utilities. Patents enable the patent holder, the patent owner, to block others from making, using, selling, attempting to sell, importing, exporting, etc. Everything that is protected by that patent, the idea. Patents protect technology. So they're a form of property which is meant to protect technology and encourage innovations in the technological area. So examples of technology might be software, hardware, but also small molecule drugs like normal pharmaceuticals, aspirin, proteins like antibodies. Methods of producing things like new ways of three D printing, for example. And patents were intended to encourage the innovators to share their ideas with the world. They first got started at a time long back in history when many innovations were held by guilds. They're kept as secrets. They wouldn't be shared with anybody. And then if the guild members died as was happening, for example, during the plague in the middle ages, suddenly those secrets are lost. Quickly governments realize this is a bad idea. We have to encourage sharing, but if innovators shared, they said, well, we're afraid if we share our ideas, how do we know someone won't just steal them and make off with them and all …

AI assessment note: “Well, a patent is actually a form of property”

Q Thanks for the intro. So I, I'm curious to know, what was the end result of that battle? Did he win, or did the Genome Project win?

A Well, in the end, I think a truce was called. Rather than trying to stop folks from getting patents, um, instead many of the universities and other institutions got their own patents, and indeed a number of the patents that Craig Venter got were finally held not to be valid, um, and this also played out then later on with fights having to do with Gene based diagnostics. You may have heard about some of these fights over the BRCA genes. So what had happened was there are certain genes that are related to breast cancer and these genes have been patented. The fear of course, was that this meant that research couldn't be done, that new developments couldn't be made. So ultimately in the U S it was held that these genes could not be patented. That pure genetic material was not itself Patentable. Only if it was manipulated by humans, for example, for use in making special proteins, could it actually be patentable? And this is actually in line with what many other countries had long held, which is that pure genetic material could not be considered to be patented. So you can see there's always been a balance in the system between wanting to protect the rights of innovators, which I am totally in favor of, but also wanting to be able to help progress and help innovators be able to make new innovations without fear of being completely blocked.

AI assessment note: “Well, in the end, I think a truce was called.”

Q And then how long does it take on average from when you do the submission to when you hopefully get a response, whether you're accepted or rejected?

A So once you, Take the step of filing, not the provisional, but the non-provisional patent application in the US. Typically now I'm seeing it takes one and a half to two years, or even three or four years before you get the first reaction from the examiner. It depends on what area you're in. Some areas are severely backlogged. The Corona virus situation hasn't helped. We saw a huge backlog where it just seems like everything ran to a halt. Although I say now they're coming back on top of the backlog, things are moving faster. So once you get that first initial reaction, then it depends on you. It depends on what you want to do. You could, for example, decide to quickly call the examiner, have the interview and just move forward as quickly as possible. Or you could ask your patent attorney, your agent that you're working with to, how can we, how can we make this process go faster? Typically it's by making the claims. Cause that's the part that delineates your property boundaries. Think of it. You want a big fence around a hundred acres, Or do you want a small fence around like a quarter acre? Obviously building the small fence around the quarter acre takes us time, and the same thing is true in the patent world. The more specific protection you want, the less time it will take to get it.

AI assessment note: “Typically now I'm seeing it takes one and a half to two years”

Q And this is a term that probably some people have heard of, if not everyone, hopefully. What is a patent troll?

A Ah, yes, the patent trolls. Well, a patent troll is a entity which holds on to patents, so they own patents, but they do not practice them. This means that they do not manufacture their own products. They just license them out. This can happen for a variety of reasons. There are some companies that just invest in patents. They buy up patents of failed companies or companies that no longer want the patents, you know, to try to put them together in order To make money out of them. In the case of the Blackberry, the research in motion, uh, patent lawsuit, the inventor had died. He had tried to commercialize his ideas and he was unable to do so successfully before he died. And so his estate then owned the patents went on to try to get licensing fees to support his family after he died. In the U S the patent, uh, trolls are the knows knows the MPEs and non-practicing entities. Uh, their power has been reduced somewhat because now in order to get a preliminary injunction, so that is when, let's say I accuse you, Sean, of patent infringement, not to go to court, but I'm a non-practicing entity, then if I ask for a preliminary injunction, if I ask to stop you from doing what you're doing immediately, then the court would say no. And the reason why is because I'm not in any immediate danger. I am not manufacturing the product. Whereas if I had been manufacturing the product, and the cou…

AI assessment note: “a patent troll is a entity which holds on to patents, so they own patents”

Q with the Internet, things changed again, and now industry four point O with artificial intelligence and robotics and automations and all these things. The whole world is changing so quickly. So for a system that is run by a government, and when people assume governments are inefficient, how has the patent system changed? What does it look like today? And what do you think it'll look like in 20 years?

A So that's a great question. Just one initial aspect that has become super important. It has become more and more difficult for patent examiners to be able to examine patents, particularly in areas like artificial intelligence and blockchain that are moving so fast. So for example, what is an artificial intelligence patent? Our product uses artificial intelligence. Many other products use that. How can patent examiners keep up with that? How can the government patent office keep up with that? And then how can the courts keep up with that? But then a second aspect, which is really interesting, is how have patents as business tools changed? One way in which they've changed, and that I see will continue to change in the next 10 years, will be how folks get together to be able to create things like patent pools. Now, a patent pool is when a group of innovators, typically through an organization, get together, and they put their patents into a single pool, and then everyone Who belongs to the pool can use them as a defense in case they're attacked by another company, or they can also use them potentially to defend the products of everyone in that pool if a larger competitor tries to copy them, depending on the rules of the pool. So for example, Jack Dorsey, CEO of Twitter, who's also CEO of Square, has recently founded a new patent pool in blockchain, and he's encouraging others to p…

AI assessment note: “One way in which they've changed, and that I see will continue to change”

Q Why haven't you built it? No, I'm kidding. Let's talk from the point of view of someone applying in the US. What does the process look like for starting to finishing a patent application?

A So in the US, as in many other countries, the process begins with, of course, having a great idea and a great idea in a technology. So it has to, first of all, be in a patentable category. Then the next thing that you can do is you can do what is known as a patentability search to see if anyone's thought of the idea before. The reason why is in order to get a patent, not only does your idea have to be in a patentable category, but it also has to be new and inventive. It has to have that wow factor. Once you've done these things, then you go to a patent attorney or patent agent, such as myself, and you work with that person in order to create the patent. Now, what is the patent Well, it's basically a document. For many ideas, including hardware, software, any mechanical device, you will typically have drawings. The drawings will show the idea. They'll help to tell the story of the idea. For example, for software hardware drawings, I recommend that the innovator would have at least seven to 10 drawings. It's a good rule of thumb to make sure you really explain your idea. Then you also have to write the patent text, which you'll typically do with the patent agent or attorney. And the patent text tells the story. Of the idea. It describes the drawings, but it also includes a part of the patent that describes the rights that you as the innovator, as the inventor, want to achieve, an…

AI assessment note: “the process begins with, of course, having a great idea and a great idea”

Q When we had our intro call, you mentioned the, the right time to file a patent. It was something about before you start marketing it. Can you expound on that?

A Ah, yes. That's a great point. And thanks for bringing it up. So in the U S you're allowed to file for a patent within one year of publishing your idea. So publication can be anything. It could be giving a Ted talk, could be releasing your product, selling or offering to sell your product, uh, putting up a big description on your website, pitching in public. Any of these things can be considered to be a publication. So once you make that publication in the U S the one year clock starts ticking, but outside the U S You are only allowed to file for a patent if you do so before you publish. Now this is important because businesses become quite international. And actually I've seen this with many of my clients over the years, but it's really been accelerated in the past year with coronavirus. Companies all over the world are looking for solutions and they don't care as much if the solution is found in their home country or not. They want the best solution to help solve their problem quickly. So as a result, Companies in the US are looking for solutions outside the US and companies outside the US are looking for solutions in the US. For that reason, many more of my clients are thinking about filing internationally. The three big countries in which my clients typically want to file are the US, Europe, and China. I realize Europe is not a country, but because it is one patent office, …

AI assessment note: “outside the U S You are only allowed to file for a patent if you do so before you publish.”

Q I remember when we were having our intro call, you mentioned something about the price of patenting depends on where you patent. So obviously there's over 200 countries, they all have different ways in which they govern themselves, but why isn't there a body that allows you to patent something that's then protected globally across all the other countries?

A Well, that's a very good question. Uh, patents are a per country, right? And each country does have its own patent rules. So patents were set up at the time, um, basically starting in the 18th century with the rules perfected in the 19th century. So that's when countries were obviously the main governing unit and they were intended to protect innovators in that country. There quickly arose some treaties to make it easier for innovators in one country to patent in another country. So for example, innovators all over the world can get a patent in the US. You don't have to be a US citizen. You don't have to have a US company. You don't have to have any US ties. Similarly, anyone who, even if they don't live in Europe or have a European tie, can get a patent in Europe or for that matter in China. But because each country set up its own system and has its own rules, it does increase the expense. It means that you have to file for a patent in every country you went to protection. You have to Follow its rules and you have to pay a patent attorney or agent as such as myself in that country in order to help you out. There have been moves to try to bring patent rules together, to make them more consistent, to make it easier for innovators in one country to get patents in multiple countries. But unfortunately there still isn't one single body that allows you to, you know, file in one plac…

AI assessment note: “patents were set up at the time, um, basically starting in the 18th century”

Q So, I heard the name of your company was KISS Platform. What's the difference between that and iSearch.ai?

A KISS Platform is our company, and iSearch.ai is the first of a suite of products that we want to develop. So, our goal in life is to help innovators have the same advantages that big companies have. Now, what are the advantages that big companies have? Well, they have resources to do research. They have analysts. The analysts check patents, and they say, these patents are similar. These patents you should be aware of. Ooh, this is a patent pitfall you should not fall into. And they do the same thing with competitors. What we want to do with KISS platform overall is to help innovators do that same kind of research in a way that doesn't take a lot of time and that gives deeply guided results. In particular, with our first product, iSearch.ai, we're focusing on agile competitive intelligence. So by agile, It is up to date, but it also helps innovators develop their ideas iteratively, meaning they can go through and as they develop their ideas from a very early stage all the way through to launch, they can come back to the tool again and again and get more information. Competitive intelligence, because we want to help innovators really find that intelligence that the big companies can find by throwing a lot of resources at it, by throwing a lot of people and a lot of working hours. We want to help them cut through all the noise, Find the signal and find the patents and competitors …

AI assessment note: “KISS Platform is our company, and iSearch.ai is the first of a suite of products”

Q So with all of the time, energy, and money that goes into filing, working with the agent or the lawyer, and all, and waiting and all of that, what are the pros and cons of even getting a patent?

A Well, first of all, being patent pending itself can be quite helpful for a number of reasons. First of all, many investors will view the patent application as being a very important step. Some of them actually insist on it. Others just think of it as being super important. Typically filing for a patent application, even before it's granted as an, you know, before it becomes an issue, patent will add a million dollars to the valuation of a startup. And that's because it represents the potential to block a market niche. It's viewed as a business tool. And because it's a piece of property, if something doesn't go so well for the startup, if it goes under, it can then actually be sold as a way to help recoup the money. And as I mentioned before, you can even get loans on the basis of your patent portfolio. Now it also depends on your exits that you plan for both an IPO and for being sold to a larger company. Patents are very important. Uh, Facebook actually had to buy more patents before its IPO, because the investment bankers handling the IPO said, you don't have enough patents. This will make it hard for us to do the IPO because patent pending represents potential. In some ways it can actually be more beneficial for the startup to actually have a patent application be pending even before it's examined, because then no one can say that you don't deserve this really broad protectio…

AI assessment note: “being patent pending itself can be quite helpful for a number of reasons”

Q That sounds speciest. I don't like that. I think the baboon should have its own protections. So there was one more thing that came to mind when we were talking about all this, which is licensing. So you mentioned several times that it's possible to license your patent. What kind of licenses are there?

A That's a great question. They actually represent a contract. So it's as though you're going to go rent an apartment. Uh, there are more or less standardized It's apartment contracts wandering around, but they depend on the laws of your state. In the case of patent licenses, they would typically be governed by federal law, but in the U S state laws can also apply. So you'd have to think about that, you know, go to a, an attorney in your state of choice to develop that license and also to understand how it applies at the federal level. When you're thinking about a patent license, it's really an agreement where you're agreeing to rent out your idea to allow someone else to use it. Maybe also with know-how, maybe with code, for example, for software, maybe with a hardware or with sales of hardware, it can include many different components, but it is part of an overall business agreement. So before starting to even work on a license agreement, I would suggest that the company thinks about what its goals are for the business agreement that would include that licensing agreement. Does it include sales? Are you selling any kind of free to use of the idea, or are you selling Use of the idea only in a very specific way. Once you've decided what your business goals are, then developing the license becomes much easier.

AI assessment note: “it's really an agreement where you're agreeing to rent out your idea”

Q to be hard to get any industry to be so benevolent. With that in mind, what is the artificial intelligence patent landscape look like Is it possible that there's going to be these agreed upon standards, or do you think everyone's going to make their own models and patent them, or do you think we're looking at an open source style system? How do you think AI will play out?

A That's a really interesting question. AI is a field that brings with it its own difficulties. So one is, can an AI be an inventor? The answer is probably not, but you may have seen these rather lovely images of car chassis that were designed by an AI. So the chassis is like a A cage designed to protect the driver. Nowadays, even though cars are very light, driver fatalities have gone way down because the chassis is built as a cage, a very protective cage. There was a recent example of this with a race car driver, his car flipped over multiple times at extremely high speeds, burst into flames. He walked out of it unscathed. And a big part of the reason for that was the cage around him was built to be so protective. So they asked an AI to design such a cage and it looked like bone. I mean, it was gorgeous. It was almost biological, organic looking. It looked radically different for anything a human had ever designed. So the question is, is then, is the AI an inventor? The answer is, well, probably not, but no one's really certain. And quite frankly, I think the courts are kind of hoping this question doesn't come up because it's going to be such a hard one to answer. So that's one big question that we're all looking at, but no one really has an answer to. Another big problem is many AI models are black box. Meaning it's very hard to understand what's going on inside them. Famous …

AI assessment note: “AI is a field that brings with it its own difficulties. So one is, can an AI be an inventor?”