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Sep 9, 2016 · 28m · top-founders

EP 412: 5 Kids, $5 Million 2015 Agency Revenue With Joe Apfelbaum of AjaxUnion

Joe Apfelbaum · 14m spoken Nathan Latka · 10m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Host Nathan Latka interviews Ajax Union CEO Joe Apfelbaum, who breaks down how he restructured his digital marketing agency from 75 employees to a lean team of 20 to achieve 30% profit margins on millions in revenue while balancing personal wellness and a family of five.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 44% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.3 Guest teaching 2.3 Guest disagreement 2.5 Nathan pushing back 3.7
05100:0010:0020:002:34–5:53 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 The Origin of Ajax Union and Pivoting Toward Profitability Latka methodically uncovers Ajax Union's transition from rapid top-line expansion to margin-focused optimization. Apfelbaum explains his decision to downsize from 75 staff to 20 while increasing revenue per client tenfold.5:54–9:18 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Agency Margins, Personal Compensation, and Lifestyle Balance Latka frames Ajax Union as a lifestyle agency rather than a venture play, contrasting it with high-burn startups like Jet.com. He presses Apfelbaum on personal cash extraction and quarterly bonus distribution structures.9:18–15:33 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Retainer Dynamics, Client Selection, and Strategic Funding Latka pushes Apfelbaum hard on why a profitable agency needed a $1M outside investment and repeatedly demands the valuation terms. Apfelbaum stands his ground and refuses to disclose equity figures due to active restructuring negotiations.15:33–20:33 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 CEO Mojo Podcast, Content Repurposing, and Personal Transformation Latka directly challenges Apfelbaum's claim that he does not care about podcast download numbers, arguing audience size validates content viability. Apfelbaum pushes back, arguing the podcast serves as raw content for courses and books.20:33–22:37 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Building with TopTal and HostGator Host monologue featuring mid-roll advertisements for Toptal developer hiring and HostGator web hosting.22:37–26:27 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five with Joe Apfelbaum During the Famous Five rapid-fire section, Apfelbaum corrects Latka's author attribution on Traction and provides a detailed breakdown of his operational tools, lead scraping via Upwork, and sleep routines.2:34–5:53 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Origin of Ajax Union and Pivoting Toward Profitability Latka methodically uncovers Ajax Union's transition from rapid top-line expansion to margin-focused optimization. Apfelbaum explains his decision to downsize from 75 staff to 20 while increasing revenue per client tenfold.5:54–9:18 · Guest teaching 2/10 Agency Margins, Personal Compensation, and Lifestyle Balance Latka frames Ajax Union as a lifestyle agency rather than a venture play, contrasting it with high-burn startups like Jet.com. He presses Apfelbaum on personal cash extraction and quarterly bonus distribution structures.9:18–15:33 · Guest teaching 3/10 Retainer Dynamics, Client Selection, and Strategic Funding Latka pushes Apfelbaum hard on why a profitable agency needed a $1M outside investment and repeatedly demands the valuation terms. Apfelbaum stands his ground and refuses to disclose equity figures due to active restructuring negotiations.15:33–20:33 · Guest teaching 2/10 CEO Mojo Podcast, Content Repurposing, and Personal Transformation Latka directly challenges Apfelbaum's claim that he does not care about podcast download numbers, arguing audience size validates content viability. Apfelbaum pushes back, arguing the podcast serves as raw content for courses and books.20:33–22:37 · Guest teaching 0/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Building with TopTal and HostGator Host monologue featuring mid-roll advertisements for Toptal developer hiring and HostGator web hosting.22:37–26:27 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Famous Five with Joe Apfelbaum During the Famous Five rapid-fire section, Apfelbaum corrects Latka's author attribution on Traction and provides a detailed breakdown of his operational tools, lead scraping via Upwork, and sleep routines.2:34–5:53 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Origin of Ajax Union and Pivoting Toward Profitability Latka methodically uncovers Ajax Union's transition from rapid top-line expansion to margin-focused optimization. Apfelbaum explains his decision to downsize from 75 staff to 20 while increasing revenue per client tenfold.5:54–9:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Agency Margins, Personal Compensation, and Lifestyle Balance Latka frames Ajax Union as a lifestyle agency rather than a venture play, contrasting it with high-burn startups like Jet.com. He presses Apfelbaum on personal cash extraction and quarterly bonus distribution structures.9:18–15:33 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Retainer Dynamics, Client Selection, and Strategic Funding Latka pushes Apfelbaum hard on why a profitable agency needed a $1M outside investment and repeatedly demands the valuation terms. Apfelbaum stands his ground and refuses to disclose equity figures due to active restructuring negotiations.15:33–20:33 · Guest disagreement 5/10 CEO Mojo Podcast, Content Repurposing, and Personal Transformation Latka directly challenges Apfelbaum's claim that he does not care about podcast download numbers, arguing audience size validates content viability. Apfelbaum pushes back, arguing the podcast serves as raw content for courses and books.20:33–22:37 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Building with TopTal and HostGator Host monologue featuring mid-roll advertisements for Toptal developer hiring and HostGator web hosting.22:37–26:27 · Guest disagreement 2/10 The Famous Five with Joe Apfelbaum During the Famous Five rapid-fire section, Apfelbaum corrects Latka's author attribution on Traction and provides a detailed breakdown of his operational tools, lead scraping via Upwork, and sleep routines.2:34–5:53 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 The Origin of Ajax Union and Pivoting Toward Profitability Latka methodically uncovers Ajax Union's transition from rapid top-line expansion to margin-focused optimization. Apfelbaum explains his decision to downsize from 75 staff to 20 while increasing revenue per client tenfold.5:54–9:18 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Agency Margins, Personal Compensation, and Lifestyle Balance Latka frames Ajax Union as a lifestyle agency rather than a venture play, contrasting it with high-burn startups like Jet.com. He presses Apfelbaum on personal cash extraction and quarterly bonus distribution structures.9:18–15:33 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Retainer Dynamics, Client Selection, and Strategic Funding Latka pushes Apfelbaum hard on why a profitable agency needed a $1M outside investment and repeatedly demands the valuation terms. Apfelbaum stands his ground and refuses to disclose equity figures due to active restructuring negotiations.15:33–20:33 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 CEO Mojo Podcast, Content Repurposing, and Personal Transformation Latka directly challenges Apfelbaum's claim that he does not care about podcast download numbers, arguing audience size validates content viability. Apfelbaum pushes back, arguing the podcast serves as raw content for courses and books.20:33–22:37 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Sponsor Spotlight: Building with TopTal and HostGator Host monologue featuring mid-roll advertisements for Toptal developer hiring and HostGator web hosting.22:37–26:27 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 The Famous Five with Joe Apfelbaum During the Famous Five rapid-fire section, Apfelbaum corrects Latka's author attribution on Traction and provides a detailed breakdown of his operational tools, lead scraping via Upwork, and sleep routines.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 92.5% · guest 7.5%0:00 · Nathan 92.5% · guest 7.5%3:00 · Nathan 8.4% · guest 91.6%3:00 · Nathan 8.4% · guest 91.6%6:00 · Nathan 46.9% · guest 53.1%6:00 · Nathan 46.9% · guest 53.1%9:00 · Nathan 23.7% · guest 76.3%9:00 · Nathan 23.7% · guest 76.3%12:00 · Nathan 34.9% · guest 65.1%12:00 · Nathan 34.9% · guest 65.1%15:00 · Nathan 28% · guest 72%15:00 · Nathan 28% · guest 72%18:00 · Nathan 45.2% · guest 54.8%18:00 · Nathan 45.2% · guest 54.8%21:00 · Nathan 68.3% · guest 31.7%21:00 · Nathan 68.3% · guest 31.7%24:00 · Nathan 27.5% · guest 72.5%24:00 · Nathan 27.5% · guest 72.5%27:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%27:00 · Nathan 100% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 14:54 Refusal to disclose equity and valuation terms

Apfelbaum flatly refuses Latka's repeated demands to reveal the equity and valuation of his $1M funding round, citing confidential ongoing restructuring.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 17:40 Host rejects guest's metric indifference claim

Latka refuses to accept Apfelbaum's assertion that download numbers are irrelevant, arguing low downloads signal poor content that should be eliminated.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 23:16 Author clarification on business literature

When Latka confuses the book Traction with Justin Mares's marketing text, Apfelbaum cleanly corrects him that he meant Gino Wickman's organizational framework.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 6:58 Distinguishing venture valuation from lifestyle cash flow

Latka articulates the precise difference between venture-backed loss leaders like Jet.com and digital agencies designed to extract cash for personal wealth.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
The Origin of Ajax Union and Pivoting Toward Profitability 5313 Latka methodically uncovers Ajax Union's transition from rapid top-line expansion to margin-focused optimization. Apfelbaum explains his decision to downsize from 75 staff to 20 while increasing revenue per client tenfold.
Agency Margins, Personal Compensation, and Lifestyle Balance 6224 Latka frames Ajax Union as a lifestyle agency rather than a venture play, contrasting it with high-burn startups like Jet.com. He presses Apfelbaum on personal cash extraction and quarterly bonus distribution structures.
Retainer Dynamics, Client Selection, and Strategic Funding 6357 Latka pushes Apfelbaum hard on why a profitable agency needed a $1M outside investment and repeatedly demands the valuation terms. Apfelbaum stands his ground and refuses to disclose equity figures due to active restructuring negotiations.
CEO Mojo Podcast, Content Repurposing, and Personal Transformation 5256 Latka directly challenges Apfelbaum's claim that he does not care about podcast download numbers, arguing audience size validates content viability. Apfelbaum pushes back, arguing the podcast serves as raw content for courses and books.
Sponsor Spotlight: Building with TopTal and HostGator 0000 Host monologue featuring mid-roll advertisements for Toptal developer hiring and HostGator web hosting.
The Famous Five with Joe Apfelbaum 4422 During the Famous Five rapid-fire section, Apfelbaum corrects Latka's author attribution on Traction and provides a detailed breakdown of his operational tools, lead scraping via Upwork, and sleep routines.

Statements from this episode (13)

Prediction Didn’t hold up
Latka: Send Later will go public before he turns 30
“I'm taking Send Later public by the time I turn 30.”
Nathan Latka Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 1:15
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Scaled TheWatchery.com from $3M to $40M in revenue
“I helped them grow from a mere three million dollars to forty million dollars in revenue”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 3:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union generated $4 million in 2015 revenue
“So two, 20 15 revenue was four million dollars.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 4:29
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union downsized from 75 employees and 350 accounts
“But we used to have 75 employees and 350 active accounts.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 5:41
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union's 2016 revenue goal is $6 million
“My goal is to do six million dollars in revenue.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 5:58
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union targets $1M to $1.5M in 2016 net profit
“My bottom line is to do at least a million and a half, depending on our growth for next year.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 6:02
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union netted about $500,000 profit in 2015
“About half a million dollars.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 6:25
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Personal 2015 take-home from Ajax Union exceeded $200K
“So my take home, including bonuses was north of 200,000.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 8:14
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union generated $500K in first-year revenue
“500,000.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 8:59
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union's average client retainer is $10,000 monthly
“So our average retainer for clients, we work with midsize companies that are five million to fifty million in revenue. And our average retainers, 10,000 dollars a month.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 9:58
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union raised $1M at zero profit on $2M revenue
“You know, we were, we had a two million dollar top line and we had zero profit and they were willing to give us a million dollars with a great evaluation.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 14:33
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Ajax Union provides returns to angel investors via profit sharing
“Well, they're getting a return and they've been getting a return. So it's a profit sharing.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 15:43
Disclosure
Apfelbaum: Paid Upwork contractors $2/hour to build targeted lead lists
“I have there's a website. It used to be called Odesk. Now it's called Upwork. And I would just hire people for two dollars an hour to build it for me.”
Joe Apfelbaum Sep 9, 2016 ▶ 24:39
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