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Sep 17, 2017 · 17m · top-founders

785: He Makes $500k+ From Udemy Helping You Code

Evan Leong · 8m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top Podcast, host Nathan Latka interviews Evan Leong, VP of Product at DevSlopes, exploring how the coding education startup is pivoting from $600,000 in marketplace course sales on Udemy to an owned, recurring SaaS subscription model aimed at reaching $1 million in annual revenue.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 47.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.5 Guest teaching 2.5 Guest disagreement 1.0 Nathan pushing back 3.2
05100:0010:001:54–4:00 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Introducing Evan Leong and DevSlopes Learn to Code Platform Latka introduces the company and explores DevSlopes' model, asking baseline questions on early SaaS subscription pricing and traction. Leong clarifies their positioning relative to competitors and explains their introductory metrics.4:02–7:33 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 DevSlopes Fundraising History from Kickstarter to Angel Investment Latka digs into the funding background and directly challenges the sustainability of their SaaS model, predicting high churn in online coding education. Leong explains their new 'target topics' content strategy designed to retain users.7:33–9:59 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Transitioning from Marketplace Distribution to Owned SaaS Platform Latka untangles their revenue sources, discovering the $600k was mostly marketplace commissions, and asks why they bother building their own SaaS. Leong lays out the rationale regarding platform risk and custom learning UX.10:00–12:28 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Multiplatform Marketplace Dynamics and Initial Paid Advertising Tests Latka presses on channel distribution and tests Leong on their customer acquisition metrics from paid advertising. Leong transparently admits that paid ad spend has yielded clicks but zero paid subscriptions so far.12:28–15:26 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Course Pricing Models, Product Design, and App Store Growth Latka asks about pricing splits on Udemy before shifting to app store traction and downloads. Leong shares metrics on their Mac App Store feature spike.15:29–16:33 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Evan Leong Latka conducts the rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, with Leong providing direct, cooperative personal and professional answers.1:54–4:00 · Guest teaching 2/10 Introducing Evan Leong and DevSlopes Learn to Code Platform Latka introduces the company and explores DevSlopes' model, asking baseline questions on early SaaS subscription pricing and traction. Leong clarifies their positioning relative to competitors and explains their introductory metrics.4:02–7:33 · Guest teaching 3/10 DevSlopes Fundraising History from Kickstarter to Angel Investment Latka digs into the funding background and directly challenges the sustainability of their SaaS model, predicting high churn in online coding education. Leong explains their new 'target topics' content strategy designed to retain users.7:33–9:59 · Guest teaching 4/10 Transitioning from Marketplace Distribution to Owned SaaS Platform Latka untangles their revenue sources, discovering the $600k was mostly marketplace commissions, and asks why they bother building their own SaaS. Leong lays out the rationale regarding platform risk and custom learning UX.10:00–12:28 · Guest teaching 3/10 Multiplatform Marketplace Dynamics and Initial Paid Advertising Tests Latka presses on channel distribution and tests Leong on their customer acquisition metrics from paid advertising. Leong transparently admits that paid ad spend has yielded clicks but zero paid subscriptions so far.12:28–15:26 · Guest teaching 2/10 Course Pricing Models, Product Design, and App Store Growth Latka asks about pricing splits on Udemy before shifting to app store traction and downloads. Leong shares metrics on their Mac App Store feature spike.15:29–16:33 · Guest teaching 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Evan Leong Latka conducts the rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, with Leong providing direct, cooperative personal and professional answers.1:54–4:00 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Introducing Evan Leong and DevSlopes Learn to Code Platform Latka introduces the company and explores DevSlopes' model, asking baseline questions on early SaaS subscription pricing and traction. Leong clarifies their positioning relative to competitors and explains their introductory metrics.4:02–7:33 · Guest disagreement 1/10 DevSlopes Fundraising History from Kickstarter to Angel Investment Latka digs into the funding background and directly challenges the sustainability of their SaaS model, predicting high churn in online coding education. Leong explains their new 'target topics' content strategy designed to retain users.7:33–9:59 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Transitioning from Marketplace Distribution to Owned SaaS Platform Latka untangles their revenue sources, discovering the $600k was mostly marketplace commissions, and asks why they bother building their own SaaS. Leong lays out the rationale regarding platform risk and custom learning UX.10:00–12:28 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Multiplatform Marketplace Dynamics and Initial Paid Advertising Tests Latka presses on channel distribution and tests Leong on their customer acquisition metrics from paid advertising. Leong transparently admits that paid ad spend has yielded clicks but zero paid subscriptions so far.12:28–15:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Course Pricing Models, Product Design, and App Store Growth Latka asks about pricing splits on Udemy before shifting to app store traction and downloads. Leong shares metrics on their Mac App Store feature spike.15:29–16:33 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Evan Leong Latka conducts the rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, with Leong providing direct, cooperative personal and professional answers.1:54–4:00 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Introducing Evan Leong and DevSlopes Learn to Code Platform Latka introduces the company and explores DevSlopes' model, asking baseline questions on early SaaS subscription pricing and traction. Leong clarifies their positioning relative to competitors and explains their introductory metrics.4:02–7:33 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 DevSlopes Fundraising History from Kickstarter to Angel Investment Latka digs into the funding background and directly challenges the sustainability of their SaaS model, predicting high churn in online coding education. Leong explains their new 'target topics' content strategy designed to retain users.7:33–9:59 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Transitioning from Marketplace Distribution to Owned SaaS Platform Latka untangles their revenue sources, discovering the $600k was mostly marketplace commissions, and asks why they bother building their own SaaS. Leong lays out the rationale regarding platform risk and custom learning UX.10:00–12:28 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Multiplatform Marketplace Dynamics and Initial Paid Advertising Tests Latka presses on channel distribution and tests Leong on their customer acquisition metrics from paid advertising. Leong transparently admits that paid ad spend has yielded clicks but zero paid subscriptions so far.12:28–15:26 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Course Pricing Models, Product Design, and App Store Growth Latka asks about pricing splits on Udemy before shifting to app store traction and downloads. Leong shares metrics on their Mac App Store feature spike.15:29–16:33 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Evan Leong Latka conducts the rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, with Leong providing direct, cooperative personal and professional answers.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 84.3% · guest 15.7%0:00 · Nathan 84.3% · guest 15.7%3:00 · Nathan 19.5% · guest 80.5%3:00 · Nathan 19.5% · guest 80.5%6:00 · Nathan 41.8% · guest 58.2%6:00 · Nathan 41.8% · guest 58.2%9:00 · Nathan 23.8% · guest 76.2%9:00 · Nathan 23.8% · guest 76.2%12:00 · Nathan 42.8% · guest 57.2%12:00 · Nathan 42.8% · guest 57.2%15:00 · Nathan 80.1% · guest 19.9%15:00 · Nathan 80.1% · guest 19.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 2:44 Clarifying product positioning against Codecademy

Leong softly pushes back on Latka's comparison to Codecademy, distinguishing their video-based curriculum and hands-on professional coaching approach.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 6:10 Latka challenges education SaaS retention

Latka confronts Leong on the high churn risk of educational subscriptions, arguing users simply binge content for one month and cancel.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:02 Explaining platform dependence risk

Leong educates Latka on the existential dangers of platform risk and the need for proprietary UI controls beyond standard web browsers.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 8:17 Deconstructing marketplace affiliate revenue

Latka cuts through top-line claims to pinpoint that the majority of the reported $600k revenue was actually marketplace affiliate revenue.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Evan Leong and DevSlopes Learn to Code Platform 4211 Latka introduces the company and explores DevSlopes' model, asking baseline questions on early SaaS subscription pricing and traction. Leong clarifies their positioning relative to competitors and explains their introductory metrics.
DevSlopes Fundraising History from Kickstarter to Angel Investment 6315 Latka digs into the funding background and directly challenges the sustainability of their SaaS model, predicting high churn in online coding education. Leong explains their new 'target topics' content strategy designed to retain users.
Transitioning from Marketplace Distribution to Owned SaaS Platform 5414 Latka untangles their revenue sources, discovering the $600k was mostly marketplace commissions, and asks why they bother building their own SaaS. Leong lays out the rationale regarding platform risk and custom learning UX.
Multiplatform Marketplace Dynamics and Initial Paid Advertising Tests 5314 Latka presses on channel distribution and tests Leong on their customer acquisition metrics from paid advertising. Leong transparently admits that paid ad spend has yielded clicks but zero paid subscriptions so far.
Course Pricing Models, Product Design, and App Store Growth 4213 Latka asks about pricing splits on Udemy before shifting to app store traction and downloads. Leong shares metrics on their Mac App Store feature spike.
The Famous Five Rapid-Fire Questions with Evan Leong 3112 Latka conducts the rapid-fire Famous Five sequence, with Leong providing direct, cooperative personal and professional answers.

Statements from this episode (14)

Disclosure
DevSlopes is transitioning from course sales to a SaaS subscription model
“We've been around for around a year, year and a half, and we have been selling our courses online and through our platform, and then more recently, like in the past month, we just coded our subscription model so we're starting to convert over to SaaS.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 2:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
DevSlopes gained roughly 130 subscriptions upon launching its SaaS tier
“We so we launched last month, and out the gate we garnered around a 130 subscriptions.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 3:20
Assertion Not checkable as stated
DevSlopes subscribers pay an average of slightly over $20 monthly
“On average, they pay around 20, a little over 20 dollars a month because we have plans ranging from, you know, like, 15 dollars a month for the year, or, you know, 25 dollars a month for the month”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 3:32
Assertion Supported
DevSlopes raised approximately $190,000 on Kickstarter
“We raised around a 190,000.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 4:15
Assertion Not publicly verifiable
DevSlopes raised roughly $300,000 from musician Redfoo
“We raised a, an additional 300,000 roughly from, it's really funny, from Redfu from LMFAO.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 5:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
DevSlopes generated $600,000 in revenue in its first year
“I think we did 600,000.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 5:54
Disclosure
Leong: DevSlopes targets $1 million in revenue this year
“Well, our goal is, is a million. hopefully between the SAS model and selling our courses, all the car we can get there.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 6:03
Assertion Supported
DevSlopes' CEO grew his Udemy student base to over 100,000
“At the time when we started, when we decided to start, it was, he had 40,000 students on, on Udemy, and now that's, I think, a little north of a hundred, Thousand.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 7:58
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Udemy favors promoting comprehensive 30- to 60-hour coding courses
“They like to promote like full on, you know, full blown, 30 to 60 hour courses that take you from like knowing absolutely nothing to like getting you up and running.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 10:25
Disclosure
Leong: Udemy generates 90% of DevSlopes' marketplace revenue
“Udemy takes, like, I would say right now, like, 90% of it. And then the other 10% is, like, scattered across the Skillshare.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 10:58
Disclosure
Leong: Initial Facebook ads generated zero paying customers for DevSlopes
“We actually, we didn't get any like paid customers per se, but we did get a lot of clicks and A lot of clicks, a lot of impressions, but the way that we're tracking it, we didn't see any uptick in customers.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 12:04
Assertion Supported
Udemy promotions routinely discount $200 courses to $10 or $15
“Udemy does their promotions, and so, like, a course that we would normally charge, like, 200 dollars for, all of a sudden, one month could be, you know, 10 or 15 dollars.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 12:46
Disclosure
Mac App Store feature boosted daily downloads from 50 to 400
“Luckily we just got featured in the in the Mac app store. So that number kind of jumped. We're doing 50 downloads a day roughly. And then now that's around like anywhere from like two to 400.”
Evan Leong Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 13:42
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Latka: Past guest immediately converted 80% of $5M ICO into cash
“He did a five million dollar ICO, or token issuance, and then liquidated 80% of it immediately, so he converted four million dollars into United States dollars that he put into his bank account.”
Nathan Latka Sep 17, 2017 ▶ 17:17
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