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Nov 7, 2017 · 25m · top-founders

836: Crypto: $94m Raised to Be Enterprise Blockchain for Global Payments

Stefan Thomas · 14m spoken Nathan Latka · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of The Top, host Nathan Latka interviews Ripple CTO Stefan Thomas to examine Ripple's enterprise blockchain strategy for cross-border payments, the mechanics of the Interledger protocol, and Thomas's evolution from an open-source Bitcoin pioneer to leading technical strategy at a major fintech company.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 36.7% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.2 Guest teaching 5.0 Guest disagreement 2.2 Nathan pushing back 3.2
05100:0010:0020:001:37–4:29 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Stefan Thomas's Crypto Roots and Defining Blockchain Nathan introduces Stefan and asks broad foundational questions about why cryptocurrency is difficult for the general public to grasp. Stefan provides a clear explanation defining blockchain simply as a shared ledger while noting that many altcoins are just vehicles to raise dumb money.4:29–7:31 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Financial Compliance, Frictionless Payments, and Interledger Protocols Nathan poses a dramatic dichotomy regarding crypto facilitating rogue state financing versus middle-class sovereignty. Stefan reframes the entire discussion, explaining that Interledger protocols decouple transaction interoperability from local regulatory compliance.7:32–12:34 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Divesting Community Assets and Stepping Into Ripple Nathan assumes working with banks changed Stefan's philosophical perspective, but Stefan corrects the timeline, noting his shift in mindset prompted his transition to Ripple. Stefan also corrects Nathan's misinterpretation of bank acronyms.12:34–15:16 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Solving Global Cross-Border Inefficiencies Over Broad Use Cases Stefan explains why Ripple focused strictly on cross-border payment friction rather than sprawling multi-industry use cases. Nathan demonstrates comprehension by synthesizing the product model into an analogy of Zapier for enterprise money movement.15:16–18:29 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Ripple's Pricing Structure, Venture Funding, and Organizational Scale Nathan aggressively presses Stefan to reveal software pricing tiers, volume charges, and equity status. Stefan resists disclosing specific dollar amounts but outlines the hybrid flat-fee and volume-based pricing structure.18:29–24:26 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five: Productivity Hacks, StumbleUpon, and Habits The conversation transitions into the Famous Five rapid-fire format. Stefan elaborates on discovering Bitcoin via StumbleUpon and details his structured psychological strategies for overcoming procrastination.1:37–4:29 · Guest teaching 5/10 Stefan Thomas's Crypto Roots and Defining Blockchain Nathan introduces Stefan and asks broad foundational questions about why cryptocurrency is difficult for the general public to grasp. Stefan provides a clear explanation defining blockchain simply as a shared ledger while noting that many altcoins are just vehicles to raise dumb money.4:29–7:31 · Guest teaching 7/10 Financial Compliance, Frictionless Payments, and Interledger Protocols Nathan poses a dramatic dichotomy regarding crypto facilitating rogue state financing versus middle-class sovereignty. Stefan reframes the entire discussion, explaining that Interledger protocols decouple transaction interoperability from local regulatory compliance.7:32–12:34 · Guest teaching 6/10 Divesting Community Assets and Stepping Into Ripple Nathan assumes working with banks changed Stefan's philosophical perspective, but Stefan corrects the timeline, noting his shift in mindset prompted his transition to Ripple. Stefan also corrects Nathan's misinterpretation of bank acronyms.12:34–15:16 · Guest teaching 5/10 Solving Global Cross-Border Inefficiencies Over Broad Use Cases Stefan explains why Ripple focused strictly on cross-border payment friction rather than sprawling multi-industry use cases. Nathan demonstrates comprehension by synthesizing the product model into an analogy of Zapier for enterprise money movement.15:16–18:29 · Guest teaching 3/10 Ripple's Pricing Structure, Venture Funding, and Organizational Scale Nathan aggressively presses Stefan to reveal software pricing tiers, volume charges, and equity status. Stefan resists disclosing specific dollar amounts but outlines the hybrid flat-fee and volume-based pricing structure.18:29–24:26 · Guest teaching 4/10 The Famous Five: Productivity Hacks, StumbleUpon, and Habits The conversation transitions into the Famous Five rapid-fire format. Stefan elaborates on discovering Bitcoin via StumbleUpon and details his structured psychological strategies for overcoming procrastination.1:37–4:29 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Stefan Thomas's Crypto Roots and Defining Blockchain Nathan introduces Stefan and asks broad foundational questions about why cryptocurrency is difficult for the general public to grasp. Stefan provides a clear explanation defining blockchain simply as a shared ledger while noting that many altcoins are just vehicles to raise dumb money.4:29–7:31 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Financial Compliance, Frictionless Payments, and Interledger Protocols Nathan poses a dramatic dichotomy regarding crypto facilitating rogue state financing versus middle-class sovereignty. Stefan reframes the entire discussion, explaining that Interledger protocols decouple transaction interoperability from local regulatory compliance.7:32–12:34 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Divesting Community Assets and Stepping Into Ripple Nathan assumes working with banks changed Stefan's philosophical perspective, but Stefan corrects the timeline, noting his shift in mindset prompted his transition to Ripple. Stefan also corrects Nathan's misinterpretation of bank acronyms.12:34–15:16 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Solving Global Cross-Border Inefficiencies Over Broad Use Cases Stefan explains why Ripple focused strictly on cross-border payment friction rather than sprawling multi-industry use cases. Nathan demonstrates comprehension by synthesizing the product model into an analogy of Zapier for enterprise money movement.15:16–18:29 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Ripple's Pricing Structure, Venture Funding, and Organizational Scale Nathan aggressively presses Stefan to reveal software pricing tiers, volume charges, and equity status. Stefan resists disclosing specific dollar amounts but outlines the hybrid flat-fee and volume-based pricing structure.18:29–24:26 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five: Productivity Hacks, StumbleUpon, and Habits The conversation transitions into the Famous Five rapid-fire format. Stefan elaborates on discovering Bitcoin via StumbleUpon and details his structured psychological strategies for overcoming procrastination.1:37–4:29 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Stefan Thomas's Crypto Roots and Defining Blockchain Nathan introduces Stefan and asks broad foundational questions about why cryptocurrency is difficult for the general public to grasp. Stefan provides a clear explanation defining blockchain simply as a shared ledger while noting that many altcoins are just vehicles to raise dumb money.4:29–7:31 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Financial Compliance, Frictionless Payments, and Interledger Protocols Nathan poses a dramatic dichotomy regarding crypto facilitating rogue state financing versus middle-class sovereignty. Stefan reframes the entire discussion, explaining that Interledger protocols decouple transaction interoperability from local regulatory compliance.7:32–12:34 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Divesting Community Assets and Stepping Into Ripple Nathan assumes working with banks changed Stefan's philosophical perspective, but Stefan corrects the timeline, noting his shift in mindset prompted his transition to Ripple. Stefan also corrects Nathan's misinterpretation of bank acronyms.12:34–15:16 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Solving Global Cross-Border Inefficiencies Over Broad Use Cases Stefan explains why Ripple focused strictly on cross-border payment friction rather than sprawling multi-industry use cases. Nathan demonstrates comprehension by synthesizing the product model into an analogy of Zapier for enterprise money movement.15:16–18:29 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Ripple's Pricing Structure, Venture Funding, and Organizational Scale Nathan aggressively presses Stefan to reveal software pricing tiers, volume charges, and equity status. Stefan resists disclosing specific dollar amounts but outlines the hybrid flat-fee and volume-based pricing structure.18:29–24:26 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five: Productivity Hacks, StumbleUpon, and Habits The conversation transitions into the Famous Five rapid-fire format. Stefan elaborates on discovering Bitcoin via StumbleUpon and details his structured psychological strategies for overcoming procrastination.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 85.6% · guest 14.4%0:00 · Nathan 85.6% · guest 14.4%3:00 · Nathan 42% · guest 58%3:00 · Nathan 42% · guest 58%6:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%6:00 · Nathan 19.1% · guest 80.9%9:00 · Nathan 15.6% · guest 84.4%9:00 · Nathan 15.6% · guest 84.4%12:00 · Nathan 20.7% · guest 79.3%12:00 · Nathan 20.7% · guest 79.3%15:00 · Nathan 46.5% · guest 53.5%15:00 · Nathan 46.5% · guest 53.5%18:00 · Nathan 41.6% · guest 58.4%18:00 · Nathan 41.6% · guest 58.4%21:00 · Nathan 14.3% · guest 85.7%21:00 · Nathan 14.3% · guest 85.7%24:00 · Nathan 57.3% · guest 42.7%24:00 · Nathan 57.3% · guest 42.7%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 6:32 Challenging crypto purist dogma

Stefan dismisses the purist ideology that crypto must avoid traditional institutions, pointing out that rising transaction fees undermined the core consumer benefit.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 15:20 Refusing pricing evasiveness

Nathan refuses to accept Stefan's deflection regarding client contract values, demanding an order of magnitude between a single dollar and a million dollars.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 5:26 Deconstructing ledger interoperability

Stefan educates Nathan on why cross-ledger protocols allow frictionless movement without dismantling the underlying compliance mechanisms of regulated entities.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:19 Framing Ripple as payment middleware

Nathan accurately frames Ripple's enterprise architecture using SaaS integration analogies like Zapier and IFTTT, which Stefan validates as precise.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Stefan Thomas's Crypto Roots and Defining Blockchain 3511 Nathan introduces Stefan and asks broad foundational questions about why cryptocurrency is difficult for the general public to grasp. Stefan provides a clear explanation defining blockchain simply as a shared ledger while noting that many altcoins are just vehicles to raise dumb money.
Financial Compliance, Frictionless Payments, and Interledger Protocols 4745 Nathan poses a dramatic dichotomy regarding crypto facilitating rogue state financing versus middle-class sovereignty. Stefan reframes the entire discussion, explaining that Interledger protocols decouple transaction interoperability from local regulatory compliance.
Divesting Community Assets and Stepping Into Ripple 4634 Nathan assumes working with banks changed Stefan's philosophical perspective, but Stefan corrects the timeline, noting his shift in mindset prompted his transition to Ripple. Stefan also corrects Nathan's misinterpretation of bank acronyms.
Solving Global Cross-Border Inefficiencies Over Broad Use Cases 5512 Stefan explains why Ripple focused strictly on cross-border payment friction rather than sprawling multi-industry use cases. Nathan demonstrates comprehension by synthesizing the product model into an analogy of Zapier for enterprise money movement.
Ripple's Pricing Structure, Venture Funding, and Organizational Scale 5336 Nathan aggressively presses Stefan to reveal software pricing tiers, volume charges, and equity status. Stefan resists disclosing specific dollar amounts but outlines the hybrid flat-fee and volume-based pricing structure.
The Famous Five: Productivity Hacks, StumbleUpon, and Habits 4411 The conversation transitions into the Famous Five rapid-fire format. Stefan elaborates on discovering Bitcoin via StumbleUpon and details his structured psychological strategies for overcoming procrastination.

Statements from this episode (9)

Opinion
Thomas: Many Crypto Coins May Just Be Ways to Raise 'Dumb Money'
“I think with a lot of these coins that we're seeing, you know, that question is a little bit dubious, and so I think you really have to look at each individual instance and really understand, you know, why are they using the technology, and how is it benefitin…”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 4:02
Insight
Thomas: Ledger interoperability does not alter individual ledger compliance enforcement
“Interoperability is, is, you know, doesn't affect how your compliance works, right? So the fact that you can interact with other ledgers doesn't change how your particular ledger enforces compliance.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 6:02
Assertion Partly supported
Thomas: SCB and SBI Remit use Ripple to cut remittance costs by 90%
“So they are licensing our technology, and then another company called SBI Remit in Japan is also licensing our technology. So they've come together and they've created a partnership where people in Japan, there's about 45,000 Thai people that are living in Jap…”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 10:30
Insight
Thomas: Monolithic public blockchains cannot efficiently serve diverse use cases
“When you have these sort of huge public shared ledgers it's very difficult to make changes, and also it's very difficult to serve the huge diversity of use cases between different users.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 11:31
Opinion
Thomas: The core challenge in fintech is interoperability across blockchains and central ledgers
“We think the real challenge and the real interesting technology is going to be in the interoperability between all these systems. And again, not just blockchain, but also central ledgers, because sometimes that's the best solution.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 12:24
Insight
Thomas: Pursuing 100+ Blockchain Use Cases Destroys Network Effects
“If you have a 144 use cases, you might as well have zero. It's very difficult to actually achieve any traction in any of them create any network effects and so on.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 13:14
Assertion Contradicted
Thomas: Corporate Cross-Border Payments Suffer 6% to 10% Failure Rates
“Today, when you, let's say you're corporate, right, so let's say you're, you know, Samsung, and you're trying to make a payment you know, you will have failure rates on the order of, you know, six to 10%, just from, you know, wrong details for the recipient, s…”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 14:31
Disclosure
Thomas: Ripple software fees combine flat and percentage components
“There's usually a flat fee component and a percentage component.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 16:11
Disclosure
Thomas: Ripple raised $94M in VC funding and sells XRP
“So we raised ninety four million dollars through sort of VC funding. And then we also sell some of the digital asset XRP.”
Stefan Thomas Nov 7, 2017 ▶ 16:36
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