Dec 8, 2017 · 23m · top-founders

867 SaaS: 80% yoy Growth, Badger Maps Passes $180k MRR

Steve Benson · 13m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of The Top Entrepreneurs Podcast, host Nathan Latka interviews Badger Maps founder Steven Benson to dissect how the SaaS route-planning platform achieved 80% year-over-year growth and surpassed $180,000 in monthly recurring revenue using an unconventional salary-only sales team and non-dilutive revenue-based financing.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 36.6% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 5.8 Guest teaching 4.2 Guest disagreement 3.2 Nathan pushing back 5.3
05100:0010:0020:002:02–6:32 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Badger Maps Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Structure Nathan probes the economics of maintaining 20 sales representatives for a low-cost SaaS product ($35/month). Steven defends the model by explaining that short sales cycles and annual contract upfront values justify direct outreach.6:34–9:46 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Advertisement: HostGator Website Hosting Following the mid-roll sponsor ad, Nathan investigates Steven's unconventional sales comp structure. Nathan expresses skepticism over fixed salaries with no commissions or quotas, which Steven justifies via collaborative pods and company-wide equity.9:46–12:58 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Customer Milestones, MRR Trajectory, and Non-Dilutive Debt Nathan tracks Steven's MRR trajectory from $140k to roughly $180k-$190k and evaluates the decision to raise $450k in revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital instead of dilutive equity.12:59–15:35 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Evaluating Customer Acquisition Costs and Holistic Spending Nathan presses repeatedly for specific blended and fully loaded CAC metrics. Steven rejects the conventional CAC framing, countering that he views costs holistically alongside engineering and overall bank balance.15:36–18:54 · Nathan as informed peer 7/10 Reconciling Cash Flow with Annual Prepayments and Discounts Nathan performs headcount math estimating a $275k monthly payroll against $180k MRR to claim the numbers do not add up. Steven educates him on how annual prepaid contracts pull forward sufficient cash flow to remain profitable despite lower MRR accounting.18:57–22:27 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Mechanics of Revenue-Based Debt and Capital Deployment Steven details how Lighter Capital assesses underwriting based on bank statements and recurring cash flow before moving through the rapid-fire Famous Five section.2:02–6:32 · Guest teaching 4/10 Badger Maps Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Structure Nathan probes the economics of maintaining 20 sales representatives for a low-cost SaaS product ($35/month). Steven defends the model by explaining that short sales cycles and annual contract upfront values justify direct outreach.6:34–9:46 · Guest teaching 3/10 Sponsor Advertisement: HostGator Website Hosting Following the mid-roll sponsor ad, Nathan investigates Steven's unconventional sales comp structure. Nathan expresses skepticism over fixed salaries with no commissions or quotas, which Steven justifies via collaborative pods and company-wide equity.9:46–12:58 · Guest teaching 4/10 Customer Milestones, MRR Trajectory, and Non-Dilutive Debt Nathan tracks Steven's MRR trajectory from $140k to roughly $180k-$190k and evaluates the decision to raise $450k in revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital instead of dilutive equity.12:59–15:35 · Guest teaching 4/10 Evaluating Customer Acquisition Costs and Holistic Spending Nathan presses repeatedly for specific blended and fully loaded CAC metrics. Steven rejects the conventional CAC framing, countering that he views costs holistically alongside engineering and overall bank balance.15:36–18:54 · Guest teaching 7/10 Reconciling Cash Flow with Annual Prepayments and Discounts Nathan performs headcount math estimating a $275k monthly payroll against $180k MRR to claim the numbers do not add up. Steven educates him on how annual prepaid contracts pull forward sufficient cash flow to remain profitable despite lower MRR accounting.18:57–22:27 · Guest teaching 3/10 Mechanics of Revenue-Based Debt and Capital Deployment Steven details how Lighter Capital assesses underwriting based on bank statements and recurring cash flow before moving through the rapid-fire Famous Five section.2:02–6:32 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Badger Maps Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Structure Nathan probes the economics of maintaining 20 sales representatives for a low-cost SaaS product ($35/month). Steven defends the model by explaining that short sales cycles and annual contract upfront values justify direct outreach.6:34–9:46 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Sponsor Advertisement: HostGator Website Hosting Following the mid-roll sponsor ad, Nathan investigates Steven's unconventional sales comp structure. Nathan expresses skepticism over fixed salaries with no commissions or quotas, which Steven justifies via collaborative pods and company-wide equity.9:46–12:58 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Customer Milestones, MRR Trajectory, and Non-Dilutive Debt Nathan tracks Steven's MRR trajectory from $140k to roughly $180k-$190k and evaluates the decision to raise $450k in revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital instead of dilutive equity.12:59–15:35 · Guest disagreement 5/10 Evaluating Customer Acquisition Costs and Holistic Spending Nathan presses repeatedly for specific blended and fully loaded CAC metrics. Steven rejects the conventional CAC framing, countering that he views costs holistically alongside engineering and overall bank balance.15:36–18:54 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Reconciling Cash Flow with Annual Prepayments and Discounts Nathan performs headcount math estimating a $275k monthly payroll against $180k MRR to claim the numbers do not add up. Steven educates him on how annual prepaid contracts pull forward sufficient cash flow to remain profitable despite lower MRR accounting.18:57–22:27 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Mechanics of Revenue-Based Debt and Capital Deployment Steven details how Lighter Capital assesses underwriting based on bank statements and recurring cash flow before moving through the rapid-fire Famous Five section.2:02–6:32 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Badger Maps Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Structure Nathan probes the economics of maintaining 20 sales representatives for a low-cost SaaS product ($35/month). Steven defends the model by explaining that short sales cycles and annual contract upfront values justify direct outreach.6:34–9:46 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Sponsor Advertisement: HostGator Website Hosting Following the mid-roll sponsor ad, Nathan investigates Steven's unconventional sales comp structure. Nathan expresses skepticism over fixed salaries with no commissions or quotas, which Steven justifies via collaborative pods and company-wide equity.9:46–12:58 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Customer Milestones, MRR Trajectory, and Non-Dilutive Debt Nathan tracks Steven's MRR trajectory from $140k to roughly $180k-$190k and evaluates the decision to raise $450k in revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital instead of dilutive equity.12:59–15:35 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Evaluating Customer Acquisition Costs and Holistic Spending Nathan presses repeatedly for specific blended and fully loaded CAC metrics. Steven rejects the conventional CAC framing, countering that he views costs holistically alongside engineering and overall bank balance.15:36–18:54 · Nathan pushing back 7/10 Reconciling Cash Flow with Annual Prepayments and Discounts Nathan performs headcount math estimating a $275k monthly payroll against $180k MRR to claim the numbers do not add up. Steven educates him on how annual prepaid contracts pull forward sufficient cash flow to remain profitable despite lower MRR accounting.18:57–22:27 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Mechanics of Revenue-Based Debt and Capital Deployment Steven details how Lighter Capital assesses underwriting based on bank statements and recurring cash flow before moving through the rapid-fire Famous Five section.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 57.8% · guest 42.2%0:00 · Nathan 57.8% · guest 42.2%3:00 · Nathan 23.9% · guest 76.1%3:00 · Nathan 23.9% · guest 76.1%6:00 · Nathan 41.4% · guest 58.6%6:00 · Nathan 41.4% · guest 58.6%9:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%9:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%12:00 · Nathan 30.4% · guest 69.6%12:00 · Nathan 30.4% · guest 69.6%15:00 · Nathan 36% · guest 64%15:00 · Nathan 36% · guest 64%18:00 · Nathan 19.6% · guest 80.4%18:00 · Nathan 19.6% · guest 80.4%21:00 · Nathan 47.6% · guest 52.4%21:00 · Nathan 47.6% · guest 52.4%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 14:07 Refusal of standard CAC calculations

Steven rejects Nathan's persistent attempt to isolate customer acquisition cost per channel, stating that evaluating CAC separately from overall engineering and operating costs is not how he manages the business.

Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 15:36 Challenging profitability with headcount math

Nathan aggressively multiplies 55 employees by a baseline salary to argue that headcount expenses of $275k exceed the reported $180k MRR, insisting the math indicates a deficit.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:03 Differentiating MRR recognition from cash flow

Steven directly corrects Nathan's accounting mismatch by explaining that MRR assumes monthly revenue realization while multi-year and annual upfront prepayments generate significantly higher upfront cash flow.

Nathan holds their own ▶ 15:36 Instant live financial audit

Nathan demonstrates sharp financial acumen by instantly computing estimated burn rates from headcount and cross-referencing them against reported recurring revenue.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Badger Maps Value Proposition and SaaS Pricing Structure 6436 Nathan probes the economics of maintaining 20 sales representatives for a low-cost SaaS product ($35/month). Steven defends the model by explaining that short sales cycles and annual contract upfront values justify direct outreach.
Sponsor Advertisement: HostGator Website Hosting 5335 Following the mid-roll sponsor ad, Nathan investigates Steven's unconventional sales comp structure. Nathan expresses skepticism over fixed salaries with no commissions or quotas, which Steven justifies via collaborative pods and company-wide equity.
Customer Milestones, MRR Trajectory, and Non-Dilutive Debt 6424 Nathan tracks Steven's MRR trajectory from $140k to roughly $180k-$190k and evaluates the decision to raise $450k in revenue-based financing from Lighter Capital instead of dilutive equity.
Evaluating Customer Acquisition Costs and Holistic Spending 6456 Nathan presses repeatedly for specific blended and fully loaded CAC metrics. Steven rejects the conventional CAC framing, countering that he views costs holistically alongside engineering and overall bank balance.
Reconciling Cash Flow with Annual Prepayments and Discounts 7747 Nathan performs headcount math estimating a $275k monthly payroll against $180k MRR to claim the numbers do not add up. Steven educates him on how annual prepaid contracts pull forward sufficient cash flow to remain profitable despite lower MRR accounting.
Mechanics of Revenue-Based Debt and Capital Deployment 5324 Steven details how Lighter Capital assesses underwriting based on bank statements and recurring cash flow before moving through the rapid-fire Famous Five section.

Statements from this episode (18)

Assertion Partly supported
Latka: Badger Maps is Apple's top-ranked App Store sales app
“In 2012, he founded Badger Maps, the number one sales app in the Apple App Store, which helps field sales people be more successful.”
Nathan Latka Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 1:01
Disclosure
Benson: Badger Maps operates a pure SaaS model at $35-$74 monthly
“It's pure SaaS. So it's a, it's nine or a 35 or 74 dollars a month. Depending on which version of the product you want to get and kind of a personal line, a business line, an enterprise line.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 2:54
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: The average Badger Maps customer pays $35 monthly
“Average customer is in the business plan. So it's a 35 dollar a month plan.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 3:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps employs about 55 people
“About 55 people.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 3:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps sales cycle is two to three weeks for individuals
“It's three weeks for an individual person, you know, two to three weeks for an individual and a company can be anything.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 5:32
Insight
Benson: 15-minute onboarding calls are viable for $420 annual SaaS plans
“We do reach out to even as just someone who looks like a single seat deal will at least reach out to them and ask them if they have questions about how to use the product. You know, we'll set it up for them, get them successful. That call usually takes 20 minu…”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 6:05
Disclosure
Benson: Badger Maps pays sales reps straight salaries without commissions
“It's a salaried role. Even, even so all, all these roles are salaried roles, including the sales role.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 9:05
Disclosure
Benson: Every Badger Maps employee is an equity owner
“Well, I mean, you could say that, you know, stock is a variable upside, so the success of the company, and everyone is a, is an owner in the company.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 9:14
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps has around 5,500 customers
“We probably have like 5500 customers.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 9:49
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps is growing around 80% year-over-year
“Yeah, I mean, we're basically I guess we're, I think we're around doubling maybe 80% growth rate year over year.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 10:09
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps has reached $180k-$190k in MRR
“And now we're at like, Probably one 81 90.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 10:54
Disclosure
Benson: Badger Maps raised an additional $320k debt round
“We did another debt round With the same people we did the original one for another, like, what do we do, like, 320 K?”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 11:11
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps pays around 19%-20% interest on Lighter Capital debt
“Probably like 19% ish. 20%.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 12:16
Insight
Benson: Revenue-based debt fits cash-generative SaaS, not capital-hungry startups
“It's a great product for companies that throw off cash. Right. So if you have a, A nice MRR and a growing MRR. It's a nice way to raise money. Obviously it wouldn't be a good fit if you're, you know, for a lot of companies that don't, that are capital hungry, …”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 12:33
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Benson: Badger Maps monthly logo churn is around 3%
“Probably like three percent.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 13:06
Disclosure
Benson: Badger Maps spends about $15k monthly on paid channels
“Oh, I probably, Probably 15 grand.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 14:49
Disclosure
Benson: Badger Maps offers 20% discount for annual upfront subscriptions
“20% is the kind of the standard, if they're gonna, if they, if they're gonna come in, For a year at a time, we knocked 20% off the cost. So it's, you know, it's moving it from a 42 dollar a month price to a 35 dollar”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 17:19
Insight
Benson: Sales reps should state exact dollar savings instead of percentages
“We tell them what that, how much they're going to save. Like we actually like do the math. Like we don't just say 20, 20%. We say, oh, and that's going to come out to 75 dollars.”
Steve Benson Dec 8, 2017 ▶ 18:42
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