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Feb 16, 2020 · 30m · top-founders

1667 Top Tech Journalist Predicts We'll All Be Unemployed, Blockchain Takeover, Less Taxes!

Mike Malone · 19m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Veteran technology journalist Mike Malone examines his book The Autonomous Revolution, discussing how rapid advancements in artificial intelligence, automation, and blockchain represent an unprecedented civilizational phase shift. He explores the economic consequences of white-collar displacement, advocates for free-market fiscal policies, and defends the essential role of entrepreneurs in navigating future societal disruption.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 26.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.1 Guest teaching 3.8 Guest disagreement 1.7 Nathan pushing back 2.8
05100:0010:0020:0030:000:52–4:57 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 The Autonomous Revolution and Society Historical Phase Shift Nathan frames the opening discussion with Ray Dalio's economic principles around productivity and debt cycles. Malone expands extensively by introducing the physics concept of a phase shift and comparing current tech changes to the agricultural and industrial revolutions.4:57–8:52 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Automation of White-Collar Work and Zero Economic Value Citizens Nathan asks whether society should prioritize employment or productivity gains. Malone explains how white-collar jobs are increasingly displaced by AI and introduces the concept of Zero Economic Value citizens.8:52–12:17 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Universal Basic Income and Redefining Value Metrics Beyond Balance Sheets Nathan presses Malone for concrete solutions rather than open-ended questions when discussing Universal Basic Income. Malone responds with ideas around measuring intangible assets and intellectual capital instead of industrial balance sheets.12:18–16:29 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Monetizing Web Content Social Media Censorship and Digital Privacy Nathan directly challenges Malone's proposal to tax internet usage and pushes back by asking why platforms like Facebook are not targeted instead. Nathan cites open-source platforms like WordPress and GitLab to demonstrate the positive economic value of freeware.16:29–20:18 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Inevitability of Blockchain Government Surveillance and Global Tribalism Malone asserts that blockchain adoption is inevitable while arguing that governments will mandate backdoors to preserve national sovereignty. Nathan asks whether abolishing government control could be positive, prompting Malone to warn against tribalism.20:18–22:21 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Free Market Capitalism Lowering Capital Gains and Eliminating Estate Taxes Nathan explores tax policy scenarios, prompting Malone to advocate for eliminating estate taxes and cutting capital gains. Nathan pushes back by presenting Elizabeth Warren's perspective on funding public programs like Medicare for All.22:21–25:23 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Privatizing Public Services Supporting Entrepreneurs and the Gig Economy Nathan inquires about privatizing public services like the USPS, prompting Malone to argue that the postal service should be sold to public shareholders. Both share enthusiasm for startup founders and freelance 1099 labor models.25:23–29:24 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 The Famous Five Questions AI Creativity and Personal Advice During the Famous Five routine, Malone expresses concern over AI-generated fiction reducing human creative originality. Nathan agrees and offers his thesis that creative workers will command higher compensation than software developers in the future.29:24–30:13 · Nathan as informed peer 0/10 Episode Recap and Final Blessing for Tech Entrepreneurs Nathan summarizes the core themes of the interview and plugs Malone's upcoming book before concluding the episode.0:52–4:57 · Guest teaching 6/10 The Autonomous Revolution and Society Historical Phase Shift Nathan frames the opening discussion with Ray Dalio's economic principles around productivity and debt cycles. Malone expands extensively by introducing the physics concept of a phase shift and comparing current tech changes to the agricultural and industrial revolutions.4:57–8:52 · Guest teaching 5/10 Automation of White-Collar Work and Zero Economic Value Citizens Nathan asks whether society should prioritize employment or productivity gains. Malone explains how white-collar jobs are increasingly displaced by AI and introduces the concept of Zero Economic Value citizens.8:52–12:17 · Guest teaching 4/10 Universal Basic Income and Redefining Value Metrics Beyond Balance Sheets Nathan presses Malone for concrete solutions rather than open-ended questions when discussing Universal Basic Income. Malone responds with ideas around measuring intangible assets and intellectual capital instead of industrial balance sheets.12:18–16:29 · Guest teaching 4/10 Monetizing Web Content Social Media Censorship and Digital Privacy Nathan directly challenges Malone's proposal to tax internet usage and pushes back by asking why platforms like Facebook are not targeted instead. Nathan cites open-source platforms like WordPress and GitLab to demonstrate the positive economic value of freeware.16:29–20:18 · Guest teaching 5/10 Inevitability of Blockchain Government Surveillance and Global Tribalism Malone asserts that blockchain adoption is inevitable while arguing that governments will mandate backdoors to preserve national sovereignty. Nathan asks whether abolishing government control could be positive, prompting Malone to warn against tribalism.20:18–22:21 · Guest teaching 3/10 Free Market Capitalism Lowering Capital Gains and Eliminating Estate Taxes Nathan explores tax policy scenarios, prompting Malone to advocate for eliminating estate taxes and cutting capital gains. Nathan pushes back by presenting Elizabeth Warren's perspective on funding public programs like Medicare for All.22:21–25:23 · Guest teaching 4/10 Privatizing Public Services Supporting Entrepreneurs and the Gig Economy Nathan inquires about privatizing public services like the USPS, prompting Malone to argue that the postal service should be sold to public shareholders. Both share enthusiasm for startup founders and freelance 1099 labor models.25:23–29:24 · Guest teaching 3/10 The Famous Five Questions AI Creativity and Personal Advice During the Famous Five routine, Malone expresses concern over AI-generated fiction reducing human creative originality. Nathan agrees and offers his thesis that creative workers will command higher compensation than software developers in the future.29:24–30:13 · Guest teaching 0/10 Episode Recap and Final Blessing for Tech Entrepreneurs Nathan summarizes the core themes of the interview and plugs Malone's upcoming book before concluding the episode.0:52–4:57 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Autonomous Revolution and Society Historical Phase Shift Nathan frames the opening discussion with Ray Dalio's economic principles around productivity and debt cycles. Malone expands extensively by introducing the physics concept of a phase shift and comparing current tech changes to the agricultural and industrial revolutions.4:57–8:52 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Automation of White-Collar Work and Zero Economic Value Citizens Nathan asks whether society should prioritize employment or productivity gains. Malone explains how white-collar jobs are increasingly displaced by AI and introduces the concept of Zero Economic Value citizens.8:52–12:17 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Universal Basic Income and Redefining Value Metrics Beyond Balance Sheets Nathan presses Malone for concrete solutions rather than open-ended questions when discussing Universal Basic Income. Malone responds with ideas around measuring intangible assets and intellectual capital instead of industrial balance sheets.12:18–16:29 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Monetizing Web Content Social Media Censorship and Digital Privacy Nathan directly challenges Malone's proposal to tax internet usage and pushes back by asking why platforms like Facebook are not targeted instead. Nathan cites open-source platforms like WordPress and GitLab to demonstrate the positive economic value of freeware.16:29–20:18 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Inevitability of Blockchain Government Surveillance and Global Tribalism Malone asserts that blockchain adoption is inevitable while arguing that governments will mandate backdoors to preserve national sovereignty. Nathan asks whether abolishing government control could be positive, prompting Malone to warn against tribalism.20:18–22:21 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Free Market Capitalism Lowering Capital Gains and Eliminating Estate Taxes Nathan explores tax policy scenarios, prompting Malone to advocate for eliminating estate taxes and cutting capital gains. Nathan pushes back by presenting Elizabeth Warren's perspective on funding public programs like Medicare for All.22:21–25:23 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Privatizing Public Services Supporting Entrepreneurs and the Gig Economy Nathan inquires about privatizing public services like the USPS, prompting Malone to argue that the postal service should be sold to public shareholders. Both share enthusiasm for startup founders and freelance 1099 labor models.25:23–29:24 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Famous Five Questions AI Creativity and Personal Advice During the Famous Five routine, Malone expresses concern over AI-generated fiction reducing human creative originality. Nathan agrees and offers his thesis that creative workers will command higher compensation than software developers in the future.29:24–30:13 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Episode Recap and Final Blessing for Tech Entrepreneurs Nathan summarizes the core themes of the interview and plugs Malone's upcoming book before concluding the episode.0:52–4:57 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Autonomous Revolution and Society Historical Phase Shift Nathan frames the opening discussion with Ray Dalio's economic principles around productivity and debt cycles. Malone expands extensively by introducing the physics concept of a phase shift and comparing current tech changes to the agricultural and industrial revolutions.4:57–8:52 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Automation of White-Collar Work and Zero Economic Value Citizens Nathan asks whether society should prioritize employment or productivity gains. Malone explains how white-collar jobs are increasingly displaced by AI and introduces the concept of Zero Economic Value citizens.8:52–12:17 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Universal Basic Income and Redefining Value Metrics Beyond Balance Sheets Nathan presses Malone for concrete solutions rather than open-ended questions when discussing Universal Basic Income. Malone responds with ideas around measuring intangible assets and intellectual capital instead of industrial balance sheets.12:18–16:29 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Monetizing Web Content Social Media Censorship and Digital Privacy Nathan directly challenges Malone's proposal to tax internet usage and pushes back by asking why platforms like Facebook are not targeted instead. Nathan cites open-source platforms like WordPress and GitLab to demonstrate the positive economic value of freeware.16:29–20:18 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Inevitability of Blockchain Government Surveillance and Global Tribalism Malone asserts that blockchain adoption is inevitable while arguing that governments will mandate backdoors to preserve national sovereignty. Nathan asks whether abolishing government control could be positive, prompting Malone to warn against tribalism.20:18–22:21 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Free Market Capitalism Lowering Capital Gains and Eliminating Estate Taxes Nathan explores tax policy scenarios, prompting Malone to advocate for eliminating estate taxes and cutting capital gains. Nathan pushes back by presenting Elizabeth Warren's perspective on funding public programs like Medicare for All.22:21–25:23 · Nathan pushing back 3/10 Privatizing Public Services Supporting Entrepreneurs and the Gig Economy Nathan inquires about privatizing public services like the USPS, prompting Malone to argue that the postal service should be sold to public shareholders. Both share enthusiasm for startup founders and freelance 1099 labor models.25:23–29:24 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 The Famous Five Questions AI Creativity and Personal Advice During the Famous Five routine, Malone expresses concern over AI-generated fiction reducing human creative originality. Nathan agrees and offers his thesis that creative workers will command higher compensation than software developers in the future.29:24–30:13 · Nathan pushing back 0/10 Episode Recap and Final Blessing for Tech Entrepreneurs Nathan summarizes the core themes of the interview and plugs Malone's upcoming book before concluding the episode.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 56.5% · guest 43.5%0:00 · Nathan 56.5% · guest 43.5%3:00 · Nathan 16.6% · guest 83.4%3:00 · Nathan 16.6% · guest 83.4%6:00 · Nathan 17.4% · guest 82.6%6:00 · Nathan 17.4% · guest 82.6%9:00 · Nathan 10.7% · guest 89.3%9:00 · Nathan 10.7% · guest 89.3%12:00 · Nathan 22.2% · guest 77.8%12:00 · Nathan 22.2% · guest 77.8%15:00 · Nathan 27% · guest 73%15:00 · Nathan 27% · guest 73%18:00 · Nathan 15.6% · guest 84.4%18:00 · Nathan 15.6% · guest 84.4%21:00 · Nathan 34.2% · guest 65.8%21:00 · Nathan 34.2% · guest 65.8%24:00 · Nathan 29.2% · guest 70.8%24:00 · Nathan 29.2% · guest 70.8%27:00 · Nathan 36.1% · guest 63.9%27:00 · Nathan 36.1% · guest 63.9%30:00 · Nathan 22.4% · guest 77.6%30:00 · Nathan 22.4% · guest 77.6%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 16:01 Malone warns Latka about privacy vulnerabilities

Malone dismisses Nathan's willingness to sacrifice personal data for free software utility, stating that Nathan lacks the life experience to understand the risks to his medical and financial privacy.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 13:20 Latka rejects taxing users instead of platforms

Nathan refuses Malone's framing that web users should pay fees for content reach, arguing that ad-driven tech monopolies driving clickbait should bear the burden instead.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 2:14 Malone contrasts technological phase shifts with evolutionary growth

Malone uses the physics analogy of water turning to ice and historical examples to educate Nathan on why current technological shifts cannot be evaluated using traditional industrial metrics.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 14:36 Latka defends freeware using open-source B2B examples

Nathan counters Malone's negative view of freeware by citing specific, high-productivity open-source commercial successes such as WordPress parent Automattic and GitLab.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
The Autonomous Revolution and Society Historical Phase Shift 5611 Nathan frames the opening discussion with Ray Dalio's economic principles around productivity and debt cycles. Malone expands extensively by introducing the physics concept of a phase shift and comparing current tech changes to the agricultural and industrial revolutions.
Automation of White-Collar Work and Zero Economic Value Citizens 4522 Nathan asks whether society should prioritize employment or productivity gains. Malone explains how white-collar jobs are increasingly displaced by AI and introduces the concept of Zero Economic Value citizens.
Universal Basic Income and Redefining Value Metrics Beyond Balance Sheets 4425 Nathan presses Malone for concrete solutions rather than open-ended questions when discussing Universal Basic Income. Malone responds with ideas around measuring intangible assets and intellectual capital instead of industrial balance sheets.
Monetizing Web Content Social Media Censorship and Digital Privacy 6436 Nathan directly challenges Malone's proposal to tax internet usage and pushes back by asking why platforms like Facebook are not targeted instead. Nathan cites open-source platforms like WordPress and GitLab to demonstrate the positive economic value of freeware.
Inevitability of Blockchain Government Surveillance and Global Tribalism 4523 Malone asserts that blockchain adoption is inevitable while arguing that governments will mandate backdoors to preserve national sovereignty. Nathan asks whether abolishing government control could be positive, prompting Malone to warn against tribalism.
Free Market Capitalism Lowering Capital Gains and Eliminating Estate Taxes 5324 Nathan explores tax policy scenarios, prompting Malone to advocate for eliminating estate taxes and cutting capital gains. Nathan pushes back by presenting Elizabeth Warren's perspective on funding public programs like Medicare for All.
Privatizing Public Services Supporting Entrepreneurs and the Gig Economy 5423 Nathan inquires about privatizing public services like the USPS, prompting Malone to argue that the postal service should be sold to public shareholders. Both share enthusiasm for startup founders and freelance 1099 labor models.
The Famous Five Questions AI Creativity and Personal Advice 4311 During the Famous Five routine, Malone expresses concern over AI-generated fiction reducing human creative originality. Nathan agrees and offers his thesis that creative workers will command higher compensation than software developers in the future.
Episode Recap and Final Blessing for Tech Entrepreneurs 0000 Nathan summarizes the core themes of the interview and plugs Malone's upcoming book before concluding the episode.

Statements from this episode (12)

Insight
Malone: Technological productivity gains no longer show up on corporate balance sheets
“Productivity was always tied with economic strength, but now we're having non-monetizable productivity, and it began really with the microprocessor. It got cheaper and cheaper, and more and more powerful. So on the balance books, it wasn't producing that much …”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 2:19
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Malone: AI already writes a large portion of daily newspaper stories
“A lot of those newspaper stories you read every day are being done by AI, not by human beings.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 6:50
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Malone: Tech will create a permanent underclass of zero-economic-value citizens
“We've got zero, we have what are called ZEVs coming, and those are zero economic value citizens. Which are people that even if you had a job opening, you would never hire them, because technology will do the job instead, and this is going to represent a sizabl…”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 7:22
Assertion Supported
Malone: California legislation effectively outlawed core-and-freelancer corporate models
“Well, California just outlawed that. So California is actually moving back in time against that.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 11:50
Opinion
Malone: Viral web posts should incur financial charges to limit mass misinformation
“After a certain amount of posting, after a certain, if something you do reaches out to a certain number of people, there's some sort of charge attached.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 13:12
Insight
Malone: Freeware helped build the web, but carries enormous social costs
“Freeware has been a devastating thing. It did a wonderful job of building the web. I love freeware, but the cost of it, social costs is enormous.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 13:39
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Malone: The US government built hidden backdoors into Silicon Valley tech companies
“I watched the secretary of Homeland Security show up at a coffee shop in Los Altos and talk to the two founders of Google quietly. There's trap doors that have been built all over Silicon Valley that we know nothing about.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 17:37
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Malone: Governments will mandate backdoors in all blockchain technology
“And we're going to build it into blockchain. I don't know how with all those, all that security and everything else, but they're going to demand it. Because if you don't control that information or have access to that information, you lose your national sovere…”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 18:03
Opinion
Malone: High cost of living makes Silicon Valley terrible for early entrepreneurs
“I actually think this is a terrible time for entrepreneurs right now, especially in the valley, because it's safer now because of the cost of living and everything else to Bury yourself in a large corporation.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 22:06
Opinion
Malone: Venture capitalists moving downstream makes reaching Series A nearly impossible
“It's hard to make the jump from angel to series A now is almost impossible because the VCs have all moved downstream to the big money place.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 24:38
Disclosure
Malone: Holds a 15-year ten-dollar bet with Elon Musk on Mars landing
“And he and I have a 10 dollar bet. We've had it for 15 years on When he's going to put a man on Mars.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 26:26
Prediction Not checkable as stated
Malone: AI will obsolete programmers while original creative writers become extremely rich
“Yeah, if you're writing code, you know, you're about to become a newspaper man. But if you can write a really good play or movie script or novel. You're going to be a very rich person.”
Mike Malone Feb 16, 2020 ▶ 27:57
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