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Dec 15, 2021 · 25m · top-founders

Topia Hosted Virtual Burning Man in 2020, Now Paying Artists to Create Digital Worlds, 4k Conversations per Week

Daniel Liebskind · 15m spoken Nathan Latka · 7m spoken
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Topia co-founder and CEO Daniel Liebskind joins Nathan Latka to discuss building a synchronous spatial platform, detailing their monetization model, institutional backing from Seven Seven Six, and the path to a one-million-dollar run rate.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Nathan holds 32.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Nathan as informed peer 4.4 Guest teaching 3.1 Guest disagreement 1.8 Nathan pushing back 3.3
05100:0010:0020:000:45–2:52 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Introducing Topia: Transforming Remote Socializing and Digital Communities Nathan tries to box Topia in as a B2B version of Meta, but Daniel politely pushes back and reframes Topia as an open community platform rather than solely a corporate tool.2:52–6:21 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Topia's Revenue Streams: World Ownership, B2B Events, and Capacity Pricing Nathan drills down into Topia's pricing tiers, capacity billing, and customer count, challenging whether a non-recurring event model is sustainable long-term.6:23–8:56 · Nathan as informed peer 5/10 Empowering Creators: Confluencer Payouts and Experiential Service Partners Nathan calculates creator payout numbers and overall revenue estimates from Daniel's figures, while Daniel explains the role of third-party experiential service partners.8:57–12:31 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Founding History, Virtual Burning Man, and Seven Seven Six Funding Nathan catches discrepancies in Daniel's fundraising figures and calls him out directly before discussing the Seed round with Alexis Ohanian's Seven Seven Six.12:34–16:52 · Nathan as informed peer 6/10 Sponsor Message: Scaling IT Onboarding with Electric.ai Following the sponsor break, Nathan presses Daniel on whether Topia has crossed a $1M ARR run rate, pointing out that higher revenue directly fuels the creator ecosystem.16:52–19:31 · Nathan as informed peer 4/10 Platform Engagement Metrics and the Future of the Synchronous Metaverse Daniel breaks down Topia's key engagement metrics (4,000 conversations across 180 events per week) and explains how synchronous online spaces differ from the attention economy.19:32–22:30 · Nathan as informed peer 3/10 Live Exploration of Topia: Virtual Worlds and Marketplace Ecosystem Nathan tests the platform live during the interview, exploring public worlds while Daniel explains asset marketplaces and upcoming NFT integrations.22:30–24:59 · Nathan as informed peer 2/10 Future Capital Plans and the Famous Five Questions Daniel briefly mentions plans for future fundraising before answering the standard Famous Five lightning round in a cordial manner.0:45–2:52 · Guest teaching 4/10 Introducing Topia: Transforming Remote Socializing and Digital Communities Nathan tries to box Topia in as a B2B version of Meta, but Daniel politely pushes back and reframes Topia as an open community platform rather than solely a corporate tool.2:52–6:21 · Guest teaching 3/10 Topia's Revenue Streams: World Ownership, B2B Events, and Capacity Pricing Nathan drills down into Topia's pricing tiers, capacity billing, and customer count, challenging whether a non-recurring event model is sustainable long-term.6:23–8:56 · Guest teaching 4/10 Empowering Creators: Confluencer Payouts and Experiential Service Partners Nathan calculates creator payout numbers and overall revenue estimates from Daniel's figures, while Daniel explains the role of third-party experiential service partners.8:57–12:31 · Guest teaching 3/10 Founding History, Virtual Burning Man, and Seven Seven Six Funding Nathan catches discrepancies in Daniel's fundraising figures and calls him out directly before discussing the Seed round with Alexis Ohanian's Seven Seven Six.12:34–16:52 · Guest teaching 2/10 Sponsor Message: Scaling IT Onboarding with Electric.ai Following the sponsor break, Nathan presses Daniel on whether Topia has crossed a $1M ARR run rate, pointing out that higher revenue directly fuels the creator ecosystem.16:52–19:31 · Guest teaching 4/10 Platform Engagement Metrics and the Future of the Synchronous Metaverse Daniel breaks down Topia's key engagement metrics (4,000 conversations across 180 events per week) and explains how synchronous online spaces differ from the attention economy.19:32–22:30 · Guest teaching 4/10 Live Exploration of Topia: Virtual Worlds and Marketplace Ecosystem Nathan tests the platform live during the interview, exploring public worlds while Daniel explains asset marketplaces and upcoming NFT integrations.22:30–24:59 · Guest teaching 1/10 Future Capital Plans and the Famous Five Questions Daniel briefly mentions plans for future fundraising before answering the standard Famous Five lightning round in a cordial manner.0:45–2:52 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Introducing Topia: Transforming Remote Socializing and Digital Communities Nathan tries to box Topia in as a B2B version of Meta, but Daniel politely pushes back and reframes Topia as an open community platform rather than solely a corporate tool.2:52–6:21 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Topia's Revenue Streams: World Ownership, B2B Events, and Capacity Pricing Nathan drills down into Topia's pricing tiers, capacity billing, and customer count, challenging whether a non-recurring event model is sustainable long-term.6:23–8:56 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Empowering Creators: Confluencer Payouts and Experiential Service Partners Nathan calculates creator payout numbers and overall revenue estimates from Daniel's figures, while Daniel explains the role of third-party experiential service partners.8:57–12:31 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Founding History, Virtual Burning Man, and Seven Seven Six Funding Nathan catches discrepancies in Daniel's fundraising figures and calls him out directly before discussing the Seed round with Alexis Ohanian's Seven Seven Six.12:34–16:52 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Message: Scaling IT Onboarding with Electric.ai Following the sponsor break, Nathan presses Daniel on whether Topia has crossed a $1M ARR run rate, pointing out that higher revenue directly fuels the creator ecosystem.16:52–19:31 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Platform Engagement Metrics and the Future of the Synchronous Metaverse Daniel breaks down Topia's key engagement metrics (4,000 conversations across 180 events per week) and explains how synchronous online spaces differ from the attention economy.19:32–22:30 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Live Exploration of Topia: Virtual Worlds and Marketplace Ecosystem Nathan tests the platform live during the interview, exploring public worlds while Daniel explains asset marketplaces and upcoming NFT integrations.22:30–24:59 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Future Capital Plans and the Famous Five Questions Daniel briefly mentions plans for future fundraising before answering the standard Famous Five lightning round in a cordial manner.0:45–2:52 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Introducing Topia: Transforming Remote Socializing and Digital Communities Nathan tries to box Topia in as a B2B version of Meta, but Daniel politely pushes back and reframes Topia as an open community platform rather than solely a corporate tool.2:52–6:21 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Topia's Revenue Streams: World Ownership, B2B Events, and Capacity Pricing Nathan drills down into Topia's pricing tiers, capacity billing, and customer count, challenging whether a non-recurring event model is sustainable long-term.6:23–8:56 · Nathan pushing back 4/10 Empowering Creators: Confluencer Payouts and Experiential Service Partners Nathan calculates creator payout numbers and overall revenue estimates from Daniel's figures, while Daniel explains the role of third-party experiential service partners.8:57–12:31 · Nathan pushing back 6/10 Founding History, Virtual Burning Man, and Seven Seven Six Funding Nathan catches discrepancies in Daniel's fundraising figures and calls him out directly before discussing the Seed round with Alexis Ohanian's Seven Seven Six.12:34–16:52 · Nathan pushing back 5/10 Sponsor Message: Scaling IT Onboarding with Electric.ai Following the sponsor break, Nathan presses Daniel on whether Topia has crossed a $1M ARR run rate, pointing out that higher revenue directly fuels the creator ecosystem.16:52–19:31 · Nathan pushing back 2/10 Platform Engagement Metrics and the Future of the Synchronous Metaverse Daniel breaks down Topia's key engagement metrics (4,000 conversations across 180 events per week) and explains how synchronous online spaces differ from the attention economy.19:32–22:30 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Live Exploration of Topia: Virtual Worlds and Marketplace Ecosystem Nathan tests the platform live during the interview, exploring public worlds while Daniel explains asset marketplaces and upcoming NFT integrations.22:30–24:59 · Nathan pushing back 1/10 Future Capital Plans and the Famous Five Questions Daniel briefly mentions plans for future fundraising before answering the standard Famous Five lightning round in a cordial manner.

speaking balance: gold is Nathan, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Nathan 40% · guest 60%0:00 · Nathan 40% · guest 60%3:00 · Nathan 15.1% · guest 84.9%3:00 · Nathan 15.1% · guest 84.9%6:00 · Nathan 27.7% · guest 72.3%6:00 · Nathan 27.7% · guest 72.3%9:00 · Nathan 18.1% · guest 81.9%9:00 · Nathan 18.1% · guest 81.9%12:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%12:00 · Nathan 56.1% · guest 43.9%15:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%15:00 · Nathan 36.5% · guest 63.5%18:00 · Nathan 37.6% · guest 62.4%18:00 · Nathan 37.6% · guest 62.4%21:00 · Nathan 24.5% · guest 75.5%21:00 · Nathan 24.5% · guest 75.5%24:00 · Nathan 47.6% · guest 52.4%24:00 · Nathan 47.6% · guest 52.4%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 2:12 Rejecting the corporate B2B Meta framing

Daniel directly refutes Nathan's characterization of Topia as merely a B2B counterpart to Meta, pointing to non-corporate festivals like Burning Man.

 Hardest push from Nathan ▶ 10:58 Challenging contradictory fundraising figures

Nathan calls out Daniel for shifting his numbers between $800k and $600k for the pre-seed round, demanding clear clarification.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 16:52 Differentiating synchronous social from attention economy metrics

Daniel explains why session length is the wrong metric for genuine human connection, educating Nathan on measuring weekly conversation counts instead of ad-driven retention.

 Nathan holds their own ▶ 15:40 Connecting ARR growth directly to creator network effects

Nathan defends his aggressive interrogation of Topia's ARR by calculating how higher B2B revenue mathematically accelerates artist payouts and marketplace liquidity.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicNathan as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementNathan pushing backWhy
Introducing Topia: Transforming Remote Socializing and Digital Communities 3432 Nathan tries to box Topia in as a B2B version of Meta, but Daniel politely pushes back and reframes Topia as an open community platform rather than solely a corporate tool.
Topia's Revenue Streams: World Ownership, B2B Events, and Capacity Pricing 6325 Nathan drills down into Topia's pricing tiers, capacity billing, and customer count, challenging whether a non-recurring event model is sustainable long-term.
Empowering Creators: Confluencer Payouts and Experiential Service Partners 5424 Nathan calculates creator payout numbers and overall revenue estimates from Daniel's figures, while Daniel explains the role of third-party experiential service partners.
Founding History, Virtual Burning Man, and Seven Seven Six Funding 6336 Nathan catches discrepancies in Daniel's fundraising figures and calls him out directly before discussing the Seed round with Alexis Ohanian's Seven Seven Six.
Sponsor Message: Scaling IT Onboarding with Electric.ai 6225 Following the sponsor break, Nathan presses Daniel on whether Topia has crossed a $1M ARR run rate, pointing out that higher revenue directly fuels the creator ecosystem.
Platform Engagement Metrics and the Future of the Synchronous Metaverse 4412 Daniel breaks down Topia's key engagement metrics (4,000 conversations across 180 events per week) and explains how synchronous online spaces differ from the attention economy.
Live Exploration of Topia: Virtual Worlds and Marketplace Ecosystem 3411 Nathan tests the platform live during the interview, exploring public worlds while Daniel explains asset marketplaces and upcoming NFT integrations.
Future Capital Plans and the Famous Five Questions 2101 Daniel briefly mentions plans for future fundraising before answering the standard Famous Five lightning round in a cordial manner.

Statements from this episode (11)

Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liebskind: Topia Has Thousands Of Users Paying $9 Monthly For Worlds
“And so people are paying us both for world ownership. And that's nine dollars a month. And we have, you know, a couple thousand people that are doing that.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 3:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liebskind: Topia's Largest One-Off Event Fee Was $40,000
“The largest one-off event we've charged is 40,000 dollars. Small ones can be a hundred dollars.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 4:04
Disclosure
Liebskind: Topia Charges Recurring B2B Clients $4 Per Person Of Capacity
“We basically charge based on venue size. So if you want to have a venue size, a capacity of a hundred people, we charge four dollars per person of capacity. So that's 400 dollars a month.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 4:15
Disclosure
Liebskind: Topia Is Not Focused On B2B Despite Enterprise Revenue
“You know, we very much actually want to be the evolution of how people socialize. We're not really focused on the B to B side per se.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 5:23
Assertion Supported
Liebskind: Topia raised over $5M from Seven Seven Six and Bonfire
“We raised a little bit over five million in May of this year from seven, seven, six and bonfire ventures and a few others.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 9:28
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Topia Hosted Virtual Burning Man For 25,000 Five Months After Writing Code
“We were one of the co-hosts of it in 2020. We had over 25,000 people come to the event. And this was like five months after we actually wrote the first line of code.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 10:25
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Topia Generates Significantly More Revenue From B2B Than Consumer Subscriptions
“We make way more from our business side than we do from the consumer. What is more like the confluencer side, the world ownership side.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 15:32
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liebskind: Topia Has Not Yet Reached A $1M ARR Run Rate
“We're not, no.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 15:53
Disclosure
Liebskind: Topia Will Never Adopt An Ad-Based Business Model
“Cause we're not trying to build an attention economy. We're not an ad based model, right? We're never going to be.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 17:06
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Liebskind: Topia had 4,000 weekly active conversational users
“Last week, I think it was 4000 people had at least one conversation.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 17:35
Disclosure
Liebskind: Topia is likely raising another round amid strong investor interest
“We likely are. We haven't you know, we haven't really kicked that off. We are getting a lot of interest in raising another round. You know, we just raised, so we don't really need capital, but you know, having more will help us to really accelerate.”
Daniel Liebskind Dec 15, 2021 ▶ 22:35
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