Nov 30, 2022 · 43m · startup-ideas
How Writers Can Be More Productive Using AI with Ben Tossell
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Greg Isenberg sits down with Ben Tossell, founder of MakerPad and creator of Ben's Bites, to explore the rapid rise of generative artificial intelligence and its impact on entrepreneurship. The discussion covers practical AI tools, startup defensibility, creator productivity, and bold predictions for autonomous lean businesses.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Greg holds 32.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Greg as informed peer 4.7 Guest teaching 4.5 Guest disagreement 1.2 Greg pushing back 0.4
speaking balance: gold is Greg, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 26:48 Dismissing startup moats for simple prompt wrappers
Ben directly counters Greg's proposed acquisition playbook by pointing out that most wrapper features can be replicated in seconds inside OpenAI's playground.
Hardest push from Greg ▶ 21:07 Challenging standalone AI models against incumbent feature adoptionGreg pushes back against the assumption that AI startups will unseat incumbents, drawing parallels to Google's historical response to social platforms and Notion AI's native integration.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:33 Explaining the mechanics of voice cloning and synthetic mediaBen provides a detailed breakdown of how modern neural models replicate vocal mannerisms, cadence, and generate synthetic long-form dialogue.
Greg holds their own ▶ 25:35 Articulating an end-to-end M&A playbook for niche AI applicationsGreg demonstrates strategic startup expertise by detailing how vertical prompt tools can leverage distribution partnerships and acquisition pathways with larger incumbents.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Greg as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Greg pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Ben's No-Code Origins and MakerPad's Acquisition | 3 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Greg sets an open, friendly stage asking Ben about the origins of MakerPad and no-code. Ben explains how non-technical founders can build complex apps using Zapier and Webflow without writing traditional code. | |
| Curiosity-Driven Entrepreneurship and Building One-Person Businesses | 3 | 5 | 1 | 0 | Greg asks for a foundational explanation of artificial intelligence. Ben demystifies AI using relatable analogies like natural language formulas in spreadsheets and automated email drafting. | |
| Core AI Categories: Voice Cloning, Image Generation, and Automated Ads | 4 | 6 | 1 | 0 | Greg asks Ben to categorize emerging AI modalities. Ben educates the audience on rapid developments in voice cloning, synthetic podcasting, and automated algorithmic ad optimization. | |
| Sponsor Message: AG1 by Athletic Greens | 6 | 3 | 0 | 0 | Following an AG1 ad read, Greg demonstrates his own active user expertise by detailing specific writer-focused features inside the Barely.ai Chrome extension. Ben validates and expands on the workflow integration. | |
| Breakthrough AI Innovations: Stable Diffusion, Lexica, and Semantic Search | 3 | 6 | 2 | 0 | Ben highlights key projects like Stable Diffusion, Lexica, and Metaphor Systems. He introduces a contrarian perspective asserting prompt engineering will be abstracted away by smarter models. | |
| Industry Dynamics: AI as a New Platform vs. Incumbent Feature | 7 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Greg challenges the platform thesis by comparing AI adoption to Google missing social media versus Notion embedding AI as an incumbent feature. Ben builds on this by discussing how foundational model updates destroy wrapper startup moats. | |
| Startup Playbooks, Audio Clones, and AI Storybooks | 6 | 5 | 3 | 2 | Greg outlines a detailed M&A playbook for prompt wrapper startups selling to incumbents. Ben pushes back with skepticism, highlighting how easily these products are replicated in OpenAI Playground. | |
| Sponsor Message: Retool Internal Tools Platform | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Following a Retool sponsorship, Greg probes the uncanny social implications of deepfakes and conversational avatars of deceased loved ones. Ben explores detection challenges and information authenticity. | |
| AI for Creators and Cathie Wood's Deflationary Thesis | 6 | 4 | 1 | 0 | Greg brings up Cathie Wood's thesis that AI is deflationary due to increased labor productivity. Ben agrees that while leverage increases output per worker, human strategic direction remains essential. | |
| Five-Year AI Predictions: Mega-Scale Lean Enterprises | 4 | 4 | 0 | 0 | Greg prompts Ben for a bold five-year forecast. Ben predicts the rise of ultra-lean, one-to-two person enterprises generating hundreds of millions in revenue. |
Statements from this episode (13)
Tossell: Not everyone should learn to code
“I don't think anyone should learn or every, I don't think everyone should learn. Sorry, that's going to piss people off.”
MakerPad raised $350K in 2019 before Zapier acquisition in March 2021
“About 350 K of funding from calm fund and other angels in September, October, 2019. And then we were acquired by Zapier in March, 20 21.”
Tossell: AI and no-code share one goal—democratizing software development
“And I think it's even as prominent today as it was then. I just think even with all this AI stuff, I think they're all actually connected and it's all to do with democratization of software development, like doing more with software without needing to be techn…”
Tossell launched 50 failed projects before founding and selling Makerpad
“I think I launched, like, 50 things before MakerPad happened, and MakerPad happened because people didn't pay for all my other things. They would see the things I'd built and say, yeah, cool, I'm not buying that, but how did you do it?”
Tossell: AI is mostly a bolt-on feature, not standalone products
“I think AI is actually more of a bolt on. It's like a feature for most companies rather than AI is the thing.”
Tossell: AI startup categories mirror existing tech categories with AI enablement
“They're all the same categories as startups and technology in general. It's just AI enabled in front of them.”
Tossell: AI will automate end-to-end ad copy, imagery, and performance optimization
“You could even have ads being optimized, like AI could be writing the copy and showing and generating image and then all of a sudden it'll swap and change a few things and it'll see what that CTI was much better. Let's go with this one. And then they just opti…”
Tossell: Standalone AI writing apps lose users to workflow friction
“If you have to go to another place to start writing your thing, but you actually like writing in Google Docs, like that's already a change of scenery for you, and it might already disrupt your flow, and you've got like your templates, you've got things that yo…”
Tossell: Prompt engineering will become worthless as AI models abstract it
“I don't think prompt engineering is actually valuable, a valuable thing, because I believe all these models and all these tools will actually, like, abstract that away anyway.”
Isenberg: If AI is a new paradigm, Google will likely miss it
“I think that if it's a completely new paradigm, if AI is a completely new paradigm, it's likely that they will miss a lot of it.”
Tossell: Big tech will easily replicate lightweight AI wrapper products
“Lots of these bigger companies or lots of companies in general will just be able to do most of the capabilities that lots of these, like, I don't want to like downplay them, but these like more throwaway products. The AI is enabling.”