The Exchanges

Q So, um, did you buy anything, anything fun?

A I did. Um, I bought, uh, a CC three AMG, um, Mercedes and put on like, uh, like an aftermarket exhaust. I'm, I'm like a big car guy. My dad, um, uh, was, was in the car industry. And so he kind of, from an early age, I just remember him working on cars. Um, so I bought like, uh, well, I bought a, it was a 2012 Mercedes Benz C-si-three. I bought it for 32,000 off this kid who, it was his high, it was his fucking high school car. And I'm buying it as like my, like, Dream Gar. I'm like, damn, you kids in LA. Um, but was it worth it? I resold it, um, uh, recently for like 40 grand.

AI assessment note: “I did. Um, I bought, uh, a CC three AMG, um, Mercedes”

Q But people came now, would you, would you say though, because it's a, I guess it's a three-sided marketplace in a way, right? Is it three-sided? Is it two sides? You got acquirers, you got, you got, uh, sellers, and then you got all these things you need, like service providers for the transaction, right?

A Yeah, so we have buyers, we have sellers within Microquire. You can, uh, even hire an attorney, an investment banker, a business broker to help you with your deals. So there's kind of a marketplace inside a marketplace. So think of it as, um, three ICPs, um, and with basically each ICP is an onion with many layers. So buyers ranging from, you know, multi-billion dollar private equity funds all the way down to just like first time buyers. Um, yeah. That's probably the biggest group, you know, lava numbers, 150,000 people. Not all of them have millions of dollars. Um, and then on the sell side, same thing, small startups ranging all the way down to, you know, multimillion dollar startups, and then advisors as well, ranging from legal to just general M&A advisory. Um, so yeah, that's my answer.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, so we have buyers, we have sellers within Microquire.”

Q lots like big deal numbers, right? So it makes sense that there's always going to be the hesitation, but, um, I haven't quite, like, figured that out yet. Let's say in the future of a cell, cell business again, how to differentiate someone who's really interested versus someone who's just, um, medium interested. Maybe have you got, like, a thought on that? Like, how to, how to filter that out?

A Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, because a lot of buyers are trying to keep the cards close to their chest, where you don't want to come out and say, hey, like, I gotta have this business, this is a perfect fit, because then you know that's the buyer that is going to make an offer on the business, um, is likely You know, willing to pay more than typical asking price, but what they do is just ask like, Hey, based on everything you've seen, uh, what else you need to see to spend a letter of intent? Um, or based on, you know, this initial call, um, what are your thoughts on the business? Can you see yourself acquiring something like this? And if not, do you have any hesitations? Um, and that way you're just getting feedback and some responses there might be, oh, I need to see the product a bit more, or I'd love to see this documentation, or I need to see a cleaner version of your P and L or. Whatever it is, like, you get that information, and then you just keep the ball moving forward, just like in sales. There's an acronym I love using called BAMBAM, which is after every call that goes really well. See if you can book a meeting from a meeting. So the call goes really well. You can say, hey, I enjoyed our conversation. You know, based on what you've seen, um, what else do you need to see to potentially make an offer? Like, what are you, where are you on that? They'r…

AI assessment note: “what else you need to see to spend a letter of intent?”

Q What does that mean? Like tactically baby step into a business?

A Well, let's say you have a job, let's say, um, you know, your business probably isn't going to be able to support yourself for, you know, maybe a year or two, depending on how fast you grow. Some businesses will get to a million revenue in a year, but I think on average, it takes a business, you know, three, four years. So during that time period, you know, your, your best, you know, investor can be your job. And so that's kind of what I did. I just picked up like a short term CRO gig where I, um, basically had something to do and then I let the product Develop, and then I slowly started marketing it, and then I was there for 10 months, and then left to focus on, um, microcard full-time, and, uh.

AI assessment note: “your best, you know, investor can be your job. And so that's kind of what I did.”

Q go on, but they're kind of an, they're a bit of an edge case or an exception. And in general, you look for, for people that have a little bit more solid traction. So partly platform policy from you guys, but obviously that's done with a reason that you have the knowledge and view across all these acquisitions. You know what works, right? And you know that financial traction works.

A Can we pause on that one? The pre-revenue ones? Those ones break my heart when we list them, because if you just get a few customers, going back to the theme of de-risking the business, when, when buyers get most excited about a business, it's because product market fit has been found. You found a way to get customers. It's been proven. People are using the product. And so you get way more buyer interest and it doesn't have to necessarily be a lot of customers, but just a handful enough to give feedback about the product or using the product. And then your sale price is so much higher if you're able to just get a few customers, because without that years, there's so many assumptions of do people actually want this? Will they ever buy it? If there's, you know, maybe a month of just customers using it, will they continue using it or with it? Will they cancel? So you really can, if you just take, you know, two months and just prepare your business for sale, you know, really try to focus on sales and marketing, really de-risk the business. You can sell it for so much more than if it has no revenue, but, um, we see a lot of them, so we, we list them, but we're, we're picky in terms of, that has to be a really strong product that we feel that, uh, could benefit another business or something like that. But I, I agree with you if, you know, if you're able to just get a few customers co…

AI assessment note: “Those ones break my heart when we list them, because if you just get a few customers”

Q that they should be worried about, but they're not. Um, but I would, I would love to get a sense, you know, when you were coming to this acquisition, you know, what were your sources of anxiety? What were the things I don't know, like, what were the things that were on your mind? What, were you afraid of anything? What was, what was kind of going through your head?

A Yeah, well, I sold to a ten billion dollar private equity firm, and at the time I was 29, you know, so it just kind of felt like a David versus Goliath situation, and the firm I sold to is very professional, um, no hard-nosed negotiations. It was, it was a fantastic outcome, but still, you only know which, or You only, you, you just don't know the legal aspects, and so it comes as a complete surprise. So I'd say, um, for me, it was, you know, just ensuring that everything was done correctly, because it was going to be a life-changing, um, acquisition for myself, and so I was just, again, that's where, you know, I would email small questions just to make sure we're crossing every T, we're dotting every I, um, so I, I would say just The, the fear of the unknown and the fear of missing something is, is probably, um, thinking, and this was like five years ago now, um, but that's, that's what's coming first in mind.

AI assessment note: “The, the fear of the unknown and the fear of missing something”

Q But, but, but no, look, um, market timing, isn't that part of the idea? It's not just what you're building. It's when you're building it, how it fits into the ecosystem, whether the technology can support it. Right. Isn't that part, like, isn't micro require happening at the right time?

A Yeah. So one thing I've always, um, like, uh, if I ever get a quote, this is the quote I want. Um, here we go. As an entrepreneur, you should make a non-obvious bet to everybody else. That's obvious to you. That will become obvious over time. So what you're doing, and this was part of micro choir. I thought, you know, there's going to be a lot more businesses, um, being created to start us being democratized. Um, You know, entrepreneurship through acquisition seems to be a trend that's rising. Started reading about a lot of people building, you know, a hundred million billion dollar plus portfolios of companies that weren't Google, Apple, Facebook, the typical people or companies you think of acquiring. And I said, this is going to be a thing, you know, people are, instead of just starting businesses, you can buy one and then people are creating more online businesses than ever. Um, Um, and they're going to need a place to sell them. So that was obvious to me. Um, obviously you can, you can always get it wrong, but you're making a bet. I made that bet. And sometimes you get it right. Sometimes you get it wrong, but, um, right.

AI assessment note: “make a non-obvious bet to everybody else. That's obvious to you. That will become obvious over time.”

Q I think the question starts with, you got like three, four ICPs here. Who do you think Is the key ICP to start with? Because that start, if you try to build like a community for five, six different people, it's going to be very hard, right? Like what is the one community? What is the one sort of the biggest one? And then everyone sort of falls under that.

A Yeah. I would say founders for sure. Like one thing that we did with micro require was we saw everyone favoring buyers in the market. And the one thing that we did differently, I guess very differently was we favored the seller with every product decision, every piece of content, you know, we don't have content, like how to get like a really good deal out of a founder, how to negotiate the price down on the founder. Articles that we write and the content that we produce and kind of the message we want to, you know, convey is, you know, we put, uh, the founder in the best position. So when they meet Mr. Private equity, you know, they're prepared and, you know, understanding that, you know, it's a life changing event for a founder, but it's Tuesday for, you know, someone who's experienced a private. So I would, I would lean towards. A founder-led community around.

AI assessment note: “I would say founders for sure.”

Q These get degrees, man. That's, I've heard, I know a lot of your story, but did you get right at, you jumped right in entrepreneurship, am I right?

A Yeah, so, I, I've been an entrepreneur, like, my whole life. I did the cliche eBay store stuff. I sold, like, um, I thought it was embarrassing, but, like, Bean Babies, World of Warcraft, like, characters. Um, I'd go on, um, eBay, and I'd look for, like, misspellings. I'd buy it and resell it at a higher price margin, and then I moved into web design for, like, local bands at my high school, and then, Uh, yeah, I started a company in college. Um, I knew, I knew I wanted to be an entrepreneur just kind of from the get-go. I was, you know, really fortunate to really find my passion early. Like, I just love businesses. Like, I nerd, I get nervous when I meet, like, a founder of, like, a really successful company, but if it's, like, an athlete, I'm like, whatever, like.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, so, I, I've been an entrepreneur, like, my whole life.”

Q What was yours? I would love to hear.

A For MicroRequire, it was actually, um, Ryan Holmes, the CEO of Hootsuite, or now chairman, and I'm kind of a startup nerd, so when that came in, I was like, whoa, like, that's so cool, like, hey Ryan, I hope I don't let you down with MicroRequire. Um, he's now an investor in the business and a fantastic individual, but Yeah, he was the first paying, and the, the story goes is, um, with our current business model of, um, having buyers, uh, pay a, you know, subscription access deals, you know, I sent out an email, he signed up within two minutes, and I was just like, whoa, um, which is really cool to see, and I also remember my first, uh, customer app, business apps, which was, um, actually an attorney, um, we made a mobile app for them, yeah, um, all day and Um, it was a local attorney that, um, I'm, I'm so close with today. I think it was kind of a sympathy sale, like, hey, yeah, I love what you're doing, but, you know, I still remember it.

AI assessment note: “For MicroRequire, it was actually, um, Ryan Holmes, the CEO of Hootsuite”

Q Now, by the way, it's like, if you're still into crypto, it's October, September, it's like, ooh, that's probably good for everybody. Like, are you still into crypto?

A Yeah, so we, and then, well, well, what happened, we, we also got hit with what I call a super bug. So a super bug is when something just so insane happens to what you're building, and it's just usually, um, uh, Mark Andreessen has, like, a really great post on, uh, super bugs, if anyone wants to check that out. But essentially what happened, it was 2018, the SEC comes out with, um, guidelines saying that what we're building, um, the first application was gonna be essentially like a decentralized Coinbase, and so, Uh, we kind of had to come, you know, let's, let's call it like a, you know, sort of meeting of the minds as a team. And I just said, hey, like, how much do you guys like crypto? You want to go to jail over this? And so we put in a proactive call to the SEC and said, um, because what happened was they deemed everything on the Ethereum blockchain as security. So we were essentially working to build an unregulated securities exchange. Very illegal. Federal crime. And so, but when we started, they were, um, Uh, uh, commodity so that you're allowed to trade commodities around securities. Um, so once that happened, um, you know, we quickly found out that we're not in the technology business. We're in the regulatory compliance business and the capital to take the business to market would be, uh, we estimated around like ten million and then two years because we'd have to ge…

AI assessment note: “We were just like, no, we don't like crypto that much.”

Q too small? Like, these guys are killing it with, like, fucking ten million dollar exits, fifty million dollar exits. But I'm thinking with the creator economy, or like courses, or like coaching programs, am I, am I playing it too small? Like, have you ever looked at creators, our side of Twitter, and be like, these guys are playing a small game, and they could be playing a bigger game?

A No, I think my thought is, um, and I want to tell you, um, There's, there's two things I want to, um, touch on is, um, number one, I think there's always this sort of grass is always greener sort of perspective with entrepreneurs. I talked to a lot of bootstrap founders that wish they raised venture capital a couple years ago. Still, like, it's like you, that's really great you didn't because, you know, your business is, is doing great and you, when you sell it, it's going to be a great outcome, but they wish they went bigger. And then I talked to a lot of venture backed founders. That wish they didn't raise and they were bootstrapped. So it's kind of like as an entrepreneur, you're like never perfectly happy. I don't know. Um, but to answer your question directly in terms of like, when I see people, you know, quote unquote, let's call it thinking small versus thinking big. I think it's awesome. I mean, I always believe success should be defined by you. Um, and that's a cheesy quote cause everyone says it, but it's true. If you want to do a one person entrepreneur thing, that's bad-ass. Like I brought up the newsletter guy. Like, you know, that's cool. Um, and then, yeah, I got respect for people raising, like, hundreds of millions of dollars, and just, you're going, you're climbing Mount Everest, man, like, good luck. Like, the chances of succeeding are very, very low, but, li…

AI assessment note: “No, I think my thought is”

Q I'm glad to hear that you started, uh, years before you were thinking about it. Did you meet with like any wealth planners or tax advisors ahead of time?

A I did. I have, um, an accountant that I had worked with and still work with to this day. We set up. So the way we set up QSBS was literally, I think they were going to close the loophole. Um, this was like a decade ago. Um, but I heard about it December, 21st or something like that. And we literally, we were an LLC at the time. We scrambled, uh, basically, I, I read an article that was like attention investors, like until, um, the end of 2012 or something like that. Um, you know, this QSB as tax-free thing can save you a boatload on taxes when you sell the business or when, um, your investment is liquidated. So we reincorporated to a C Corp within four days and then Uh, there's certain qualifications that you have to meet. Like usually, um, I'm not an expert here, but most venture-backed businesses don't apply for, can't apply for QSBOs because you have too much capital on the balance sheet. So you have to have a certain minimum, like you can't have millions of dollars on the balance sheet or you don't qualify. So we never did that. Um, so we would actively deploy capital into the business. Um, and then, yeah, in terms of Um, you know, lining everybody up. Um, we did work with an investment bank prior. So that was where I, um, got all of my leads essentially. And then we got offers at the time, but still had gas in the tank and their minimum fee was 800,000. And I was like, I d…

AI assessment note: “I did. I have, um, an accountant that I had worked with”

Q Yeah, so you weren't at Chico State to, for the education. You were there because it's not, like, Whatever, whatever grade you were getting in your US history class was even less relevant than for most people because you knew you were already on the right path, right? Did you ever consider just like dropping out completely because what's the point?

A No, because I, I needed the financial aid to pay rent. So, so that was my whole plan going in was like, all right, I got five years to figure this out. Or actually it started with four years. Um, but then I started a company called business apps. It was like a do yourself, no code, mobile app builder. And that started to really take off my senior year. And so I went a fifth year and the irony is I, Took a minor in entrepreneurship. Didn't go to any of the classes, and I remember I would show up to some of the classes just to play around with the teachers and be like, hey guys, I just want to let you know, again, I'm not going to be able to attend. I have a business that I am currently working on, but have fun. Uh, learning how to run a business, and the teacher, the teacher loved it. He was like, that's what, so, um, Chico State does have a pretty good, um, entrepreneurial, um, department, and I, I'm forever grateful for them, but, um, anyway, story for, uh, for another time, but, um, my, uh, my next question would just be, um, you know, you look at, I, how many deals do you look at, like, a month?

AI assessment note: “No, because I, I needed the financial aid to pay rent.”

Q with you and show you their CRM and show you their processes. Whereas as a student, people would probably be willing to do that because they don't see you as a threat, and a lot of them see it as a way to give back. Um, so like surround yourself with good mentors, and then maybe for a third one, I don't know, but Just run profitably, right? You know?

A Yeah. That's, that's, that's the path to getting acquired these days is I always say profitability is king, and that's what most buyers are looking for. So, and obviously you should, you want to make a business that's actually profitable. Um, yeah. So all, all great tips, but Luke, um, tell me, um, you know, what, what made you decide to get into entrepreneurship at, at such a young age? You know, you, you're 23, and I'm talking to you, and you've already built, had a company acquired, and I'm excited to talk about what you're doing next, but, um, have you always been an entrepreneur? Like, were you selling baseball cards when you were, like, 10 or something like that?

AI assessment note: “That's, that's, that's the path to getting acquired these days is I always say profitability is king”

Q I realize now I'll just get back to the question a second. Speaking of tailwinds, I think you with business apps as well, you were on the tailwind of, uh, mobile apps, isn't it? Because you were really early when mobile apps were coming out.

A Oh yeah. So one of the things I always say in terms of, you know, the best businesses to start, I have a saying, make a bet that's Obvious to you. That's not obvious to others. So become obvious over time. So I've done that with kind of all, including a dumb crypto business. I started, but yeah, with business apps, I knew mobile apps were going to be like a thing. And this is right when the iPhone came out. So people were still trying to figure it out and information moved slower than like AI feels like, whoa, okay. Now everyone's already educated. There's companies coming out. Just aside from chat GBT. Um, but also, you know, acquire.com too, which was, you know, the bet that more people would be building, uh, let's call it sub ten million dollar businesses, self-funded, and would need a place to sell because the barriers to entry of building a startup have been lowered. So that was kind of a little, little, little background tidbit of, you know, originally micro acquire. That was a thought process behind the bet I was making in terms of, and then on the other side is, um, entrepreneurship through acquisition where they would buy something like St. Simple link, try to take it farther, um, maybe roll it up in a portfolio of apps, but yeah, um, there's actually a really good Ted talk on market timing, market timing tailwinds. I probably would put that in the same bucket, but you…

AI assessment note: “with business apps, I knew mobile apps were going to be like a thing.”

Q market in another market versus going through that same model again. Let's go and validate the ICP in that market. See if the same message resonates when you need to tweak. They, they, they, you know, you started small to get to scale, but then when you launch the next act or the next channel, they go big immediately versus going, starting small, right? I see that happening a lot.

A Yeah, I completely agree. And sometimes I can flop too, you know, like when you have like a very, very, um, you know, let's say maybe there's so many examples of this. Um, I'm trying to think of a good one off the top of my head, but, uh, like the TAM of your market can grow over time. So there's always like that, you know, uh, want to go up market, sell to, uh, Higher value customers. Um, for some businesses, that is the clear playbook and as a natural progression, typically, you know, big enterprise company just usually kind of pulls you up naturally. Um, but at business apps, we in our, you know, values, like, um, you were saying, we said we serve small businesses, so we never built like enterprise functionality. And that I think was, uh, you know, key to our success because it really kept us focused on Who are we selling to? And we didn't get, you know, shiny object syndrome. I'm like, this one customer will give us a hundred K if we do this. But I mean, again, thinking of like the rice model, like we would say, well, it's just for that one customer. And we have all these other customers that want this. So we're going to stay super focused on this market here. Um, anyways, uh, this, this has been a awesome, awesome chat, Lloyd.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I completely agree. And sometimes I can flop too”

Q Did you develop or did you hire developers?

A No, so I'm not technical at all. So the, the backstory is I had a job board. That can, cause I knew mobile was going to be big. So I just wanted to put myself in the, in just the area. I wanted to create service area luck. Like just get myself in the mobile app development space. So I bought a, like a, a cheap clone script and basically ran a little job board that connected mobile developers with businesses. And I kept seeing people make the same, uh, request for jobs specifically for like high end Hotels and restaurants. And they'd say, I'll pay 50,000 dollars to build like a loyalty app for my restaurant or something like that to bring customers back in. And then I was like, I've seen this like five times. Like, why don't I just make a template, the functionality, the hardest part to do that it's already engineered and I'll just change the images and stuff like that. And so I had kind of like a, I had like a little bit of like a, um, like a cheat code, I guess. I was like, okay, let's just take these templates And then put a SaaS interface on so you can build it yourself and customize it.

AI assessment note: “No, so I'm not technical at all.”

Q How did you know where you wanted to go full time?

A Oh yeah. Yeah. So, uh, I, I stayed until I raised the series a, I just basically fixed the sales process, uh, train. I, uh, I inherited three, uh, pretty green sales rep. So kind of helped build the initial sales motion, uh, built the brand a little bit, got them into like tech crunch, sales hacker for, uh, and then I had like a pre-written, uh, resignation letter as soon as the money hit for the series day. And I had to like send it to the board and everything. Uh, and I was just like, Hey, I've been working on this other thing. Um, and if you're going to do this, one thing to just keep in mind is read your employment contract. And, um, uh, make sure you get, uh, um, I, I can't remember the name of the document, but it's basically a letter that says like, Hey, I worked here, but like, you do not own anything that I've been working on just for protection. If something becomes big that you work on.

AI assessment note: “resignation letter as soon as the money hit for the series day”

Q How was it for you? So, like, would you, I don't know, like, to me, it didn't hit as hard. How about you? Was it hard? What was it like to describe the moment when the money hit for you?

A Yeah, so I'll give some context for listeners. I had a Startup before acquire.com, acquire.com, plug in it. Um, it was called a business app, spelled B-I-Z-N-E-S-S apps. And it was like a no code, um, mobile app builder, um, grew it to about, uh, ten million in your career revenue and then sold to a private equity firm and then bootstrapped that business like you. So, you know, when that wire hits and you, and you, and you bootstrapped the business, it is pretty meaningful. Um, but I remember it, um, we had a couple of false starts. So with that, that's like a term where you have a circle closing day where everything's, um, you know, gonna happen that day. And it's supposed to happen on a Friday, which would be awesome day to close an acquisition. And it didn't go through. And so, and I think the reason, if I recall, it was, um, uh, due diligence was like really intense. There was a lot of people involved. Um, uh, my whole management team was, you know, kind of ready to celebrate and just didn't go through. Cause I guess it's like, I think There was a guy in like Europe who needed to submit one last paper to approve the acquisition with the firm and he just wasn't awake or something like that. And at least that's what they told me. Anyways, it ended up closing, um, uh, next week on Tuesday. So that period, I remember just being like, oh, is it going to close, you know?

AI assessment note: “when that wire hits and you bootstrapped the business, it is pretty meaningful.”

Q right? You book a call, right? But like, On the sales call, how do you play the M&M thing? And when you said that you, when two people are like kind of neck to neck and one takes an advantage, it's kind of hard to take it back. Like maybe I'd like to like hear a story on that and how you got that back. You know what I mean?

A Like what I did with information to make the sales calls better. Uh, we would basically plant like, um, what I call like traps or grenades in our sales calls. So when we started, uh, like the, the, the, my favorite sales question is, What made you take this call today? Cause that just puts you into a spider web of different directions. Like I'm just looking at solutions. I'm looking at you and a competitor. I'm looking, uh, to fix this problem. I came across your website. Like there's so many varying degrees of like interest levels. So, you know, um, and so we were in so many calls, uh, with this direct competitor. And so, you know, you don't want to talk about your competition too much in a sales call. Um, but one, One of my favorite sort of like ways to kind of mosey around that because your job is in sales is, is literally super simple. So just help people out. And the way you help people out is you just teach them something they didn't know. That's kind of all you do. And so sometimes we would be in so many different calls where they were looking at purchasing the software from, you know, company A or company B. And so I'd say, oh, so you're talking to company B. Would you like me to spend this whole sales call, you know, just kind of walking through our product and Obviously I'd love to learn more about your business and you know, why you took this call, or do you want me …

AI assessment note: “we would basically plant like, um, what I call like traps or grenades”

Q do the right things. That business should continue to grow and not. There's not enough. It almost makes it look easy. And I worry that too many people are going to step into this with either their own money or other people's money, thinking it's easy and get hit by a train. Is that something that you see or worry about? Or am I just like making things up here?

A Um, I mean, you could also say, you know, anyone who starts a startup is an idiot because the success rate is, you know, 10%. You know, if, if anything, I would say, I'd go back to some of your previous points where you acquired companies and it didn't work out. You know, sometimes, you know, if you're worried about people buying a company and not working out, um, You know, that's, that's part of the process of, like, I've failed so many times to, to be successful at stuff that I do, and I think that's a part of the reason that you're successful. So, I mean, yeah, I think people are getting a little, a little fast and loose, um, but I don't, I don't think it's a concerning problem to the point where it's like, hey, Just buy Bitcoin. Like, just buy Bitcoin. You know, you could, you know, you can make that sort of argument against any sort of investment, whether it's starting a new business, whether it's buying cryptocurrencies, whether it's buying an NFT or something like that, angel investing. Um, so, Yeah. I mean, I think just the more education that we create where we educate, you know, both buyers and sellers on, you know, how to properly do an acquisition. Like what is your plan post acquisition? I think that's how, you know, the market, uh, will mature and then we'll really, we'll grow and bring more opportunities to founders looking. Cause what I think is going to happen …

AI assessment note: “I think people are getting a little, a little fast and loose, um, but I don't”

Q But you were pulling people into your solution as in, uh, this is why this is the only solution that makes sense. If you want to come here, right. You were pulling, they were pushing. Is that kind of how you see it?

A Well, the way that, I mean, I remember, um, you know, really, you know, in sales, you just want to find like the problem that they have. Then you want to just talk about that. That's an ideal sales call, but if they're further down the line where the problem has been made aware, They're aware of solutions. So that's why that question, you know, why did you take this call today? You know, someone will say like, you know, we're looking for a commission automation tool. We're looking at you and two other competitors. So we thought we'd take the call. So that call, you're going to really be focusing on like, what did you like about the other competitors? Um, what didn't you like? What is kind of like an ideal solution in your mind? And then you obviously talk about your comp plan. How much time are you spending on that? Um, how much time would you like to spend on that? And then What would you spend that time on if you didn't have to do that? And that's kind of like painting the, uh, the world after the solutions implemented. Um, but yeah, I mean, if they talk to the first company first, you, you kind of already know, like, they definitely have said terrible things about us. So, and we know specifically which ones they, you know, brought up. So let's talk about that. And so we would sometimes ask, um, like, did, did they tell you like our implementation time is this? No, it's not. …

AI assessment note: “in sales, you just want to find like the problem that they have.”

Q How did you know, or how do you know when it was the time to go full-time?

A So I was gonna leave sooner. I joined, and they had just left their previous year ago, and they had this other competitor that was, like, really neck and neck, And once you get a competitor starting to take the lead, it's really hard to take that lead back. So I saw that, um, and sales would be called knife fighting. I'll be enough. So a lot of deals we'd hear this other competitor come up. So we had to have sort of a defensive sort of, you know, sales strategy. So the first thing I did was, you know, um, secret shop to the competitor. They were literally sending like Excel sheets, like talking trash on this other company. So it was kind of like that scene in M&M. Add eight miles. Like I know everything you're going to say against me. So I was like, all right, thanks for that. So now we know what you're saying on saying against us on sales calls. And then our win rate went way up. Um, but in terms of, um, man, what was the question?

AI assessment note: “man, what was the question?”