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Sep 17, 2021 · 26m · saastr

Nick Mehta CEO Gainsight + Jason Lemkin CEO SaaStr on "The Latest in Leveling Up Customer Success"

Jason Lemkin · 16m spoken Nick Mehta · 6m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

Gainsight CEO Nick Mehta and SaaStr founder Jason Lemkin discuss the evolution of customer success, examining how net retention, leadership alignment, and multi-product expansion fuel scalable SaaS growth. They also reflect on community resilience, modern pricing architectures, and the reimagined format of SaaStr Annual.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Jason holds 71.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Jason as informed peer 5.8 Guest teaching 1.7 Guest disagreement 0.7 Jason pushing back 0.8
05100:0010:0020:000:02–6:44 · Jason as informed peer 5/10 Welcome and Reflections on the First SaaStr Annual The conversation opens warmly as the two peers reminisce about the inaugural SaaStr Annual and detail the logistics and format shifts of hosting a 5,000-person outdoor event during COVID.6:45–11:37 · Jason as informed peer 6/10 The Evolution of Customer Success and Recurring Revenue Dynamics The speakers discuss the historical evolution of net retention rate (NRR) and how post-acquisition customer stickiness at EchoSign revealed the compound power of recurring revenue.11:37–15:13 · Jason as informed peer 6/10 Balancing Gross Churn Versus Net Retention and Leadership Personas Both analyze customer success leadership profiles, contrasting sales-driven hunters who thrive on quota-based expansion with protective relationship managers who melt under variable compensation.15:13–20:11 · Jason as informed peer 7/10 Benchmarking SaaS Comps, Involving Engineering, and Multi-Product Strategies The dialogue explores how benchmarking against top-quartile public SaaS comps forces engineering to engage with churn, and why multi-product offerings are required to push SMB retention past 100%.20:12–23:21 · Jason as informed peer 6/10 Modern SaaS Pricing Models and Eliminating Buyer Friction The discussion analyzes the shift from traditional seat licenses to usage-based and fintech hybrid pricing models, using Algolia's removal of punitive pricing tiers as a prime case study.23:22–25:00 · Jason as informed peer 5/10 Customer Success Strategies in Early-Stage Startups Today The segment touches on modern early-stage startups having sophisticated day-one cohort instrumentation while warning against keeping junior teams too long, followed by a rapid-fire word association wrap-up.0:02–6:44 · Guest teaching 1/10 Welcome and Reflections on the First SaaStr Annual The conversation opens warmly as the two peers reminisce about the inaugural SaaStr Annual and detail the logistics and format shifts of hosting a 5,000-person outdoor event during COVID.6:45–11:37 · Guest teaching 2/10 The Evolution of Customer Success and Recurring Revenue Dynamics The speakers discuss the historical evolution of net retention rate (NRR) and how post-acquisition customer stickiness at EchoSign revealed the compound power of recurring revenue.11:37–15:13 · Guest teaching 2/10 Balancing Gross Churn Versus Net Retention and Leadership Personas Both analyze customer success leadership profiles, contrasting sales-driven hunters who thrive on quota-based expansion with protective relationship managers who melt under variable compensation.15:13–20:11 · Guest teaching 2/10 Benchmarking SaaS Comps, Involving Engineering, and Multi-Product Strategies The dialogue explores how benchmarking against top-quartile public SaaS comps forces engineering to engage with churn, and why multi-product offerings are required to push SMB retention past 100%.20:12–23:21 · Guest teaching 2/10 Modern SaaS Pricing Models and Eliminating Buyer Friction The discussion analyzes the shift from traditional seat licenses to usage-based and fintech hybrid pricing models, using Algolia's removal of punitive pricing tiers as a prime case study.23:22–25:00 · Guest teaching 1/10 Customer Success Strategies in Early-Stage Startups Today The segment touches on modern early-stage startups having sophisticated day-one cohort instrumentation while warning against keeping junior teams too long, followed by a rapid-fire word association wrap-up.0:02–6:44 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Welcome and Reflections on the First SaaStr Annual The conversation opens warmly as the two peers reminisce about the inaugural SaaStr Annual and detail the logistics and format shifts of hosting a 5,000-person outdoor event during COVID.6:45–11:37 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Evolution of Customer Success and Recurring Revenue Dynamics The speakers discuss the historical evolution of net retention rate (NRR) and how post-acquisition customer stickiness at EchoSign revealed the compound power of recurring revenue.11:37–15:13 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Balancing Gross Churn Versus Net Retention and Leadership Personas Both analyze customer success leadership profiles, contrasting sales-driven hunters who thrive on quota-based expansion with protective relationship managers who melt under variable compensation.15:13–20:11 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Benchmarking SaaS Comps, Involving Engineering, and Multi-Product Strategies The dialogue explores how benchmarking against top-quartile public SaaS comps forces engineering to engage with churn, and why multi-product offerings are required to push SMB retention past 100%.20:12–23:21 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Modern SaaS Pricing Models and Eliminating Buyer Friction The discussion analyzes the shift from traditional seat licenses to usage-based and fintech hybrid pricing models, using Algolia's removal of punitive pricing tiers as a prime case study.23:22–25:00 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Customer Success Strategies in Early-Stage Startups Today The segment touches on modern early-stage startups having sophisticated day-one cohort instrumentation while warning against keeping junior teams too long, followed by a rapid-fire word association wrap-up.0:02–6:44 · Jason pushing back 0/10 Welcome and Reflections on the First SaaStr Annual The conversation opens warmly as the two peers reminisce about the inaugural SaaStr Annual and detail the logistics and format shifts of hosting a 5,000-person outdoor event during COVID.6:45–11:37 · Jason pushing back 1/10 The Evolution of Customer Success and Recurring Revenue Dynamics The speakers discuss the historical evolution of net retention rate (NRR) and how post-acquisition customer stickiness at EchoSign revealed the compound power of recurring revenue.11:37–15:13 · Jason pushing back 1/10 Balancing Gross Churn Versus Net Retention and Leadership Personas Both analyze customer success leadership profiles, contrasting sales-driven hunters who thrive on quota-based expansion with protective relationship managers who melt under variable compensation.15:13–20:11 · Jason pushing back 2/10 Benchmarking SaaS Comps, Involving Engineering, and Multi-Product Strategies The dialogue explores how benchmarking against top-quartile public SaaS comps forces engineering to engage with churn, and why multi-product offerings are required to push SMB retention past 100%.20:12–23:21 · Jason pushing back 1/10 Modern SaaS Pricing Models and Eliminating Buyer Friction The discussion analyzes the shift from traditional seat licenses to usage-based and fintech hybrid pricing models, using Algolia's removal of punitive pricing tiers as a prime case study.23:22–25:00 · Jason pushing back 0/10 Customer Success Strategies in Early-Stage Startups Today The segment touches on modern early-stage startups having sophisticated day-one cohort instrumentation while warning against keeping junior teams too long, followed by a rapid-fire word association wrap-up.

speaking balance: gold is Jason, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Jason 69.6% · guest 30.4%0:00 · Jason 69.6% · guest 30.4%3:00 · Jason 82.1% · guest 17.9%3:00 · Jason 82.1% · guest 17.9%6:00 · Jason 72.5% · guest 27.5%6:00 · Jason 72.5% · guest 27.5%9:00 · Jason 73% · guest 27%9:00 · Jason 73% · guest 27%12:00 · Jason 53% · guest 47%12:00 · Jason 53% · guest 47%15:00 · Jason 87.8% · guest 12.2%15:00 · Jason 87.8% · guest 12.2%18:00 · Jason 62.2% · guest 37.8%18:00 · Jason 62.2% · guest 37.8%21:00 · Jason 82.8% · guest 17.2%21:00 · Jason 82.8% · guest 17.2%24:00 · Jason 51.7% · guest 48.3%24:00 · Jason 51.7% · guest 48.3%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:34 Skepticism on Product-Led Growth

When prompted on the industry buzzword 'product-led growth', Jason delivers an immediate, skeptical retort questioning whether it is real or just hype.

 Hardest push from Jason ▶ 19:00 Pushing back on dual Gross and Net retention KPIs

Jason pushes back on the idea of startups juggling multiple retention metrics, arguing that assigning both gross and net retention will overwhelm teams and that leadership must prioritize NRR.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 10:18 Mathematical proof of NRR compounding over market share

Jason breaks down the counterintuitive metric showing how EchoSign grew from $10M to $250M ARR solely driven by 120% NRR despite its overall market share dropping by more than half.

 Jason holds their own ▶ 15:13 Enforcing top-quartile public comp standards

Jason demonstrates executive-level pattern recognition by explaining how public company S-1 comps should be used to systematically realign company goals and direct core engineering talent toward retention.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicJason as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementJason pushing backWhy
Welcome and Reflections on the First SaaStr Annual 5100 The conversation opens warmly as the two peers reminisce about the inaugural SaaStr Annual and detail the logistics and format shifts of hosting a 5,000-person outdoor event during COVID.
The Evolution of Customer Success and Recurring Revenue Dynamics 6201 The speakers discuss the historical evolution of net retention rate (NRR) and how post-acquisition customer stickiness at EchoSign revealed the compound power of recurring revenue.
Balancing Gross Churn Versus Net Retention and Leadership Personas 6211 Both analyze customer success leadership profiles, contrasting sales-driven hunters who thrive on quota-based expansion with protective relationship managers who melt under variable compensation.
Benchmarking SaaS Comps, Involving Engineering, and Multi-Product Strategies 7212 The dialogue explores how benchmarking against top-quartile public SaaS comps forces engineering to engage with churn, and why multi-product offerings are required to push SMB retention past 100%.
Modern SaaS Pricing Models and Eliminating Buyer Friction 6211 The discussion analyzes the shift from traditional seat licenses to usage-based and fintech hybrid pricing models, using Algolia's removal of punitive pricing tiers as a prime case study.
Customer Success Strategies in Early-Stage Startups Today 5110 The segment touches on modern early-stage startups having sophisticated day-one cohort instrumentation while warning against keeping junior teams too long, followed by a rapid-fire word association wrap-up.

Statements from this episode (14)

Assertion Partly supported
Lemkin: All four panelists from a 2015 SaaStr session became SaaS unicorns
“You did a panel you did it with three entrepreneurs on, that were at a million in ARR, and all four of you are unicorns and decacorns. So it's interesting. It was you, Tiago from TalkDesk, Nicholas from Algolia, and Daniel from Greenhouse, and all were growing…”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 1:00
Insight
Lemkin: SaaS companies can reach $100M ARR with almost no sales team
“You get to 10 to a hundred, With almost no sales team, not quickly.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 9:04
Disclosure
Lemkin: EchoSign reached $12M ARR by the time Adobe's 2011 acquisition closed
“We sold EchoSign, AdobeSign to Adobe in 11, 20 11. It was ten million at the time we signed the deal. It was twelve million AR when it closed.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 10:21
Assertion Not publicly verifiable
Lemkin: Adobe Sign reached $250M ARR on 120% NRR despite losing share
“If you have a 120% NRR, that 120% NRR carried a ten million dollar business to two hundred and fifty million, even with market share loss, right?”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 10:47
Opinion
Lemkin: Sales departments should not own customer success functions
“Should sales own customer success? I'm against that.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 13:19
Insight
Mehta: Base your churn versus expansion focus on customer segment benchmarks
“So for example, you're a SAS company, you're twenty million of AR, you're selling to enterprise and your retention is 78% gross. Work on your retention, right? Like, yeah, right. But if you're a SaaS company and you're selling to SMB and your retention is gros…”
Nick Mehta Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 13:57
Insight
Lemkin: The vast majority of SaaS companies need a second product
“It's key for the vast majority of not all, but the vast majority of SAS companies is you need a second product to drive up NRR.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 16:47
Assertion Not publicly verifiable
Lemkin: Box's net retention rate varies from 90% to 130%
“Box is one of the actually old, old box is one of the most dramatic examples. Their NRR varies from 90 to one 30. Depending on how many modules and products you use.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 17:07
Insight
Lemkin: CEOs must prioritize net revenue retention over gross retention
“I think if you get, if you make everyone responsible for gross retention and net retention, they're gonna bang their heads on the table. You gotta pick a CEO like what's more important and it's gotta be net retention, right?”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 19:21
Assertion Partly supported
Lemkin: Algolia crossed $100M in revenue with growth accelerating at 60%
“And they just crossed a hundred million accelerating, okay, at about 60% growth.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 20:24
Assertion Supported
Lemkin: The majority of Bill.com's revenue no longer comes from software
“The majority of bill.com's revenue is no longer from software.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 21:24
Assertion Partly supported
Lemkin: Bill.com's net retention rate expanded from 110% to 130% post-IPO
“Bill.com has gone from one 10 to almost one 30 since IPO.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 21:33
Insight
Lemkin: Early-stage SaaS startups now possess sophisticated churn analytics in year one
“The instrumentation that I see early stage is shocking. The data, the metrics, their insight, Their cohort. I still don't even know how to do a cohort analysis myself. Their ability to do that in year one to segment churn by category, right? They get it.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 24:14
Insight
Lemkin: Today's early-stage SaaS founders stick with junior teams for too long
“So the biggest downside I see versus the old days is folks stick with two junior team for too long.”
Jason Lemkin Sep 17, 2021 ▶ 24:46
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