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Jan 10, 2023 · 15m · saastr

Investing and Venture Capital in 2023 | SaaStr CEO Jason Lemkin + Atrium Founder/CRO Pete Kazanjy

Jason Lemkin · 10m spoken Pete Kazanjy · 3m spoken
0:00 / 0:00
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SaaStr CEO Jason Lemkin and Atrium founder Pete Kazanjy analyze the 2023 venture capital landscape, contrasting early-stage resilience against late-stage paralysis while critiquing the reckless spending advice that triggered widespread industry layoffs. They also explore the disciplined investment philosophy, founder evaluation criteria, and direct operational engagement that define the SaaStr Fund.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Jason holds 77.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Jason as informed peer 7.8 Guest teaching 1.4 Guest disagreement 1.6 Jason pushing back 3.4
05100:0010:000:05–2:19 · Jason as informed peer 7/10 Jason Lemkin's Track Record and SaaStr Fund Origins Lemkin details his early venture track record at Storm Ventures, citing specific portfolio exits and unicorn valuations including Pipedrive, Algolia, and Talkdesk. Kazanjy acts primarily as an interviewer prompting background context.2:20–5:09 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 The 2023 Venture Landscape: Early-Stage Resilience vs. Late-Stage Freeze Lemkin outlines the divergence between early-stage resilience and late-stage contraction, quoting his fund's 4.4x multiple and enterprise valuations. Kazanjy agrees collaboratively while adding thoughts on runway extension.5:09–7:35 · Jason as informed peer 7/10 Overhiring, Cheap Capital, and the Pressure to Spend Lemkin argues that tech companies unnecessarily doubled headcount during the zero-interest rate boom. Kazanjy pushes back by highlighting structural pressures from VCs and LPs who demand aggressive deployment for IRR growth.7:35–10:58 · Jason as informed peer 9/10 Toxic VC Advice and the Role of Limited Partners When Kazanjy attempts to deflect VC blame onto LP expectations, Lemkin firmly rejects the premise with an emphatic rebuttal, detailing LP mechanics, historical markup practices, and 2021 IRR inflation.11:00–14:53 · Jason as informed peer 8/10 SaaStr Fund Differentiation and Identifying World-Class Founders Lemkin immediately rejects the framing of fund differentiation, arguing firms are not differentiated beyond individual partner brand, and lays out his inbound-only philosophy for identifying top-tier founders.0:05–2:19 · Guest teaching 0/10 Jason Lemkin's Track Record and SaaStr Fund Origins Lemkin details his early venture track record at Storm Ventures, citing specific portfolio exits and unicorn valuations including Pipedrive, Algolia, and Talkdesk. Kazanjy acts primarily as an interviewer prompting background context.2:20–5:09 · Guest teaching 1/10 The 2023 Venture Landscape: Early-Stage Resilience vs. Late-Stage Freeze Lemkin outlines the divergence between early-stage resilience and late-stage contraction, quoting his fund's 4.4x multiple and enterprise valuations. Kazanjy agrees collaboratively while adding thoughts on runway extension.5:09–7:35 · Guest teaching 4/10 Overhiring, Cheap Capital, and the Pressure to Spend Lemkin argues that tech companies unnecessarily doubled headcount during the zero-interest rate boom. Kazanjy pushes back by highlighting structural pressures from VCs and LPs who demand aggressive deployment for IRR growth.7:35–10:58 · Guest teaching 2/10 Toxic VC Advice and the Role of Limited Partners When Kazanjy attempts to deflect VC blame onto LP expectations, Lemkin firmly rejects the premise with an emphatic rebuttal, detailing LP mechanics, historical markup practices, and 2021 IRR inflation.11:00–14:53 · Guest teaching 0/10 SaaStr Fund Differentiation and Identifying World-Class Founders Lemkin immediately rejects the framing of fund differentiation, arguing firms are not differentiated beyond individual partner brand, and lays out his inbound-only philosophy for identifying top-tier founders.0:05–2:19 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Jason Lemkin's Track Record and SaaStr Fund Origins Lemkin details his early venture track record at Storm Ventures, citing specific portfolio exits and unicorn valuations including Pipedrive, Algolia, and Talkdesk. Kazanjy acts primarily as an interviewer prompting background context.2:20–5:09 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The 2023 Venture Landscape: Early-Stage Resilience vs. Late-Stage Freeze Lemkin outlines the divergence between early-stage resilience and late-stage contraction, quoting his fund's 4.4x multiple and enterprise valuations. Kazanjy agrees collaboratively while adding thoughts on runway extension.5:09–7:35 · Guest disagreement 4/10 Overhiring, Cheap Capital, and the Pressure to Spend Lemkin argues that tech companies unnecessarily doubled headcount during the zero-interest rate boom. Kazanjy pushes back by highlighting structural pressures from VCs and LPs who demand aggressive deployment for IRR growth.7:35–10:58 · Guest disagreement 3/10 Toxic VC Advice and the Role of Limited Partners When Kazanjy attempts to deflect VC blame onto LP expectations, Lemkin firmly rejects the premise with an emphatic rebuttal, detailing LP mechanics, historical markup practices, and 2021 IRR inflation.11:00–14:53 · Guest disagreement 0/10 SaaStr Fund Differentiation and Identifying World-Class Founders Lemkin immediately rejects the framing of fund differentiation, arguing firms are not differentiated beyond individual partner brand, and lays out his inbound-only philosophy for identifying top-tier founders.0:05–2:19 · Jason pushing back 0/10 Jason Lemkin's Track Record and SaaStr Fund Origins Lemkin details his early venture track record at Storm Ventures, citing specific portfolio exits and unicorn valuations including Pipedrive, Algolia, and Talkdesk. Kazanjy acts primarily as an interviewer prompting background context.2:20–5:09 · Jason pushing back 2/10 The 2023 Venture Landscape: Early-Stage Resilience vs. Late-Stage Freeze Lemkin outlines the divergence between early-stage resilience and late-stage contraction, quoting his fund's 4.4x multiple and enterprise valuations. Kazanjy agrees collaboratively while adding thoughts on runway extension.5:09–7:35 · Jason pushing back 3/10 Overhiring, Cheap Capital, and the Pressure to Spend Lemkin argues that tech companies unnecessarily doubled headcount during the zero-interest rate boom. Kazanjy pushes back by highlighting structural pressures from VCs and LPs who demand aggressive deployment for IRR growth.7:35–10:58 · Jason pushing back 8/10 Toxic VC Advice and the Role of Limited Partners When Kazanjy attempts to deflect VC blame onto LP expectations, Lemkin firmly rejects the premise with an emphatic rebuttal, detailing LP mechanics, historical markup practices, and 2021 IRR inflation.11:00–14:53 · Jason pushing back 4/10 SaaStr Fund Differentiation and Identifying World-Class Founders Lemkin immediately rejects the framing of fund differentiation, arguing firms are not differentiated beyond individual partner brand, and lays out his inbound-only philosophy for identifying top-tier founders.

speaking balance: gold is Jason, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Jason 78.1% · guest 21.9%0:00 · Jason 78.1% · guest 21.9%3:00 · Jason 85.3% · guest 14.7%3:00 · Jason 85.3% · guest 14.7%6:00 · Jason 55.3% · guest 44.7%6:00 · Jason 55.3% · guest 44.7%9:00 · Jason 77.6% · guest 22.4%9:00 · Jason 77.6% · guest 22.4%12:00 · Jason 91.3% · guest 8.7%12:00 · Jason 91.3% · guest 8.7%15:00 · Jason 0% · guest 0%15:00 · Jason 0% · guest 0%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 6:26 Kazanjy challenges the idea that founders could easily hoard cash

Kazanjy pushes back against Lemkin's critique of overspending by arguing that founders faced immense structural pressure from investors needing to juice IRR.

 Hardest push from Jason ▶ 9:35 Lemkin shuts down the LP defense

Lemkin forcefully interrupts Kazanjy's point with multiple 'no's to explain why LPs are not in the operational weeds and cannot be blamed for toxic VC burn advice.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 6:26 Kazanjy details founder fiduciary incentives under venture pressure

Kazanjy articulates the micro-to-macro economic constraints that make sitting on raised cash almost impossible during frothy board meetings.

 Jason holds their own ▶ 9:35 Lemkin delivers an insider masterclass on LP and VC fund mechanics

Lemkin leverages decades of fund management experience to dissect markup accounting and LP return dynamics that refute Kazanjy's theory.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicJason as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementJason pushing backWhy
Jason Lemkin's Track Record and SaaStr Fund Origins 7000 Lemkin details his early venture track record at Storm Ventures, citing specific portfolio exits and unicorn valuations including Pipedrive, Algolia, and Talkdesk. Kazanjy acts primarily as an interviewer prompting background context.
The 2023 Venture Landscape: Early-Stage Resilience vs. Late-Stage Freeze 8112 Lemkin outlines the divergence between early-stage resilience and late-stage contraction, quoting his fund's 4.4x multiple and enterprise valuations. Kazanjy agrees collaboratively while adding thoughts on runway extension.
Overhiring, Cheap Capital, and the Pressure to Spend 7443 Lemkin argues that tech companies unnecessarily doubled headcount during the zero-interest rate boom. Kazanjy pushes back by highlighting structural pressures from VCs and LPs who demand aggressive deployment for IRR growth.
Toxic VC Advice and the Role of Limited Partners 9238 When Kazanjy attempts to deflect VC blame onto LP expectations, Lemkin firmly rejects the premise with an emphatic rebuttal, detailing LP mechanics, historical markup practices, and 2021 IRR inflation.
SaaStr Fund Differentiation and Identifying World-Class Founders 8004 Lemkin immediately rejects the framing of fund differentiation, arguing firms are not differentiated beyond individual partner brand, and lays out his inbound-only philosophy for identifying top-tier founders.

Statements from this episode (8)

Prediction Open · timeframe Jan 2026
Lemkin: Algolia generates hundreds of millions and will IPO post-downturn
“The second one was Algolia, which is doing hundreds of millions and is worth three billion today, which will go IPO when we come out of this search as a service API.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 1:30
Assertion Supported
Lemkin: Talkdesk is currently worth $10 billion
“The third one was TalkDesk, which is worth ten billion today.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 1:38
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Current SaaStr Fund portfolio is marked at 4.4x despite adjustments
“Even with market adjustments, my current batch of companies is at 4.4 X.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 3:57
Opinion
Lemkin: Tech layoffs are driven by CEOs realizing late-stage capital vanished
“For the most part, CEOs are waking up to the fact that there's just no more money coming. That's the issue. That's what's feeling layoffs. There's no more money coming.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 4:33
Disclosure
Lemkin: All my later-stage portfolio companies doubled headcount in 2022
“The later stage companies I've invested in, all of them doubled their headcount, even some of the most conservative and lowest burn ones doubled their headcount last year, and they didn't, no one needed to.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 5:53
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Lemkin: Top venture LPs reported an average 90% IRR in 2021
“Top LPs last year reported, had 90% average IRR. So they got drunk on this too, and they fueled it, and they took this stuff seriously.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 10:40
Disclosure
Lemkin: Every outbound deal I've done failed; SaaStr Fund is 100% inbound
“Mine is a hundred percent inbound. I failed at outbound as a CEO. And I failed at outbound as an investor. Every outbound deal I've done, either one failed and I gave up.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 13:19
Insight
Lemkin: Venture Isn't a Volume Game; Great Founders Stand Out Fast
“It's not a volume game. It's not, Tiger Global made it look like it, they had a good play. But really, the great ones, they, you know in 20 minutes. In fact, you often know before you meet them.”
Jason Lemkin Jan 10, 2023 ▶ 13:58
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