The Exchanges

Q You wrote one of the most, uh, cultish successful books in probably the last 20 years. Um, do you want to tell us a little bit about the book so that we can start from the same place?

A Oh yeah, sure. Um, so I wrote this book, it's called Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, and I guess the title says a lot, but, um, It's about the, the powers that introverts have, despite the fact that we live in a world that would tell you that the only path to happiness, success and contributions and so on is to be extroverted. I mean, I, I believe we live in a world that's kind of biased towards extroversion. And I, but I was kind of looking around me, you know, before I wrote this book, I was looking around me and seeing people in my family and people in my workplace and so on who Were distinctly introverted and were, to me, obviously, contributing and wonderful people because of their introversion and not in spite of it, and, um, and I, and I had been interested, um, from pretty early in my adulthood in feminism, and so, and, and so it spent a lot of time thinking about gender identity, but, um, I used to be a Wall Street lawyer before I became a writer, and, um, you know, and I would sit around in these negotiations, um, At my law firm, or just meetings, and, and people would be talking so much about questions of, of, of gender, especially in terms of how people, in terms of how the people around them were behaving, and it struck me that that was really important, but was leaving a whole piece missing, um, a whole explanatory piece of what …

AI assessment note: “so I wrote this book, it's called Quiet, The Power of Introverts”

Q Do you live, I'm curious, do you live in a city or do you live in a quieter area?

A Oh, well, it's funny you say that because I live in a quieter area, but not out of choice. I actually prefer the city. Um, I lived in Manhattan for 17 years before moving out to, um, I live in the Hudson River Valley now in New York. Um, and I loved Manhattan, and I think, um, for a creative person and for an introverted person, I think Manhattan is nirvana, because you, you have all this anonymity, so you're surrounded by all these creative people, and you're picking up on everything that's going on around you. You know, you just pick it up Unconsciously, but you also have the kind of freedom and anonymity to just flow your way around the city. Whereas in a small town, you're kind of missing both of those elements. Um, so I, I've grown to really love the quiet and to appreciate it, but it's not what you think. You know, I, I, I wouldn't, we moved out here, um, cause we were having kids and, and, uh, wanted more space and kind of the usual stuff. And I, I, I have grown to love it. Um, but Anytime I go back to the city, I feel my pulse quickening in a really good way.

AI assessment note: “I live in a quieter area, but not out of choice.”

Q Was this, like, a conscious conversation you had with your husband, where you're like, I need space, and this is just how I work, or was this just something that organically was kind of learned between you guys?

A Well, I think it helped that I started writing this book pretty early into our relationship, so he really understood all this stuff in a visceral way because he was kind of, you know, with me as I was researching it and thinking about it. So we do sometimes have to have those kinds of conversations, but not as much as we would have to if, if not for that. You mentioned. But even, even then, like, It sometimes comes up between us in funny ways that neither of us are even at first aware of. Like, we, we often have a thing when we're driving where, you know, he'll turn up the, the volume dial on the music really loud, and I'll turn it down, and then he'll turn it up, and I'll turn it down, and we're like a couple in a sitcom, and it took us a while to realize that that was an introversion, extroversion thing, and somehow once you frame it as that, it's actually a lot easier to work it out. I think because it gives it, it gives legitimacy to the other person's point of view instead of feeling like, you know, why do they have this inexplicable desire? It's so different from my own. You kind of know where they're coming from.

AI assessment note: “we do sometimes have to have those kinds of conversations, but not as much”

Q How would you recommend broaching that with your co-workers, or your boss, like broaching this conversation of, hey, I'm not at my most productive. I need different things. How would you?

A Well, it kind of depends on what your relationship is. I mean, because if you have Uh, an open friendly team. I would actually recommend you, you can go to my website. It's quiet rev.com. Um, there's a personality test that's right up there and you could have everybody in your team take the personality test. It takes like five minutes. It's really, you know, it's a fun thing to do. Um, and then you could have a meeting where you all sit and talk about what your personality types are and how it impacts the way you like to work. Um, and one, one exercise that we sometimes do, um, when Quiet Revolution comes in and works with companies is an exercise called I Wish You Knew, um, you know, where each person is thinking about and sharing with their colleagues, what, what do I wish you knew about the way I like to work?

AI assessment note: “you could have a meeting where you all sit and talk”

Q How do you go about filtering what you read? Like there's so many books, there's, you know, ten million, seemingly like ten million books come out a year, and what's your process for kind of deciding which ones you, you place time with?

A Yeah, I mean, I really don't have a process. I just kind of go for whatever strikes my fancy at that moment. So my husband always kind of teases me about the stack of books on the nightstand, because it's like, it's, it's very, very varied. And I just reach for whatever I feel like at that moment. So I don't know. I, I, I guess the, um, just before I was picking up Robert Sapolsky's book, I made my way through Elena Ferrante's four novels, the, um, of the Neapolitan Quartet. I don't know if you follow Elena Ferrante at all. She's this amazing Italian writer. Um, and her novels are just kind of incredible. So As I said, I only do that when, when we're traveling, and, uh, we were just away on vacation in Portugal and Italy, so I, I read all those books while I was there.

AI assessment note: “I really don't have a process. I just kind of go for whatever strikes my fancy”

Q How do you think about a manager or as a team leader, whatever you want to call them, should think about hiring people? Is there, do you want a mix of introverts and extroverts?

A Yes, that's what you want. You, you most definitely want a mix, um, and there's research talking about this, and I think common sense would also say it, because, um, you know, you can imagine it, you have a team, let's say, of all introverts, and it can just become kind of too quiet, and, um, you're kind of craving someone to inject some energy in, or make, you know, help with getting decisions kind of activated. Um, you have a team of all extroverts, and, People aren't thinking things through enough, and they're just saying, yeah, let's go for it, and, and, and maybe nobody's sitting down and, um, kind of really getting the work done, or thinking through the, the what-if questions, or, you know, the, the subtle questions of what might go wrong along the way, or the things you need to attend to. So you, you really, really need both types of people, but also, just from a social point of view, there's all kinds of evidence in the social literature, psychology literature, that introverts and extroverts Are attracted to each other as colleagues, as peers, and so on that, you know, there, there is this sense. I think we all know it that, especially for those of us who are on one side of the spectrum or the other, as opposed to more in the middle. I think that we know that we need the other type in our lives to compliment us. Um, so we welcome them and people are happier that way.

AI assessment note: “Yes, that's what you want. You, you most definitely want a mix”

Q was like, this is, yeah, this is crazy. Like, um, I don't know why people focus on this, but, um, I want to circle back. I'm conscious of time here. I know you, you have a hard stop. So I wanted to ask you as somebody who thinks about living, um, So much. What does it mean to live? I'm like, what does it mean to live a meaningful life?

A Oh, wow. You know, I think Freud had it right on this question. I think it's love, and I think it's work. Um, that's what matters. Love and work. And by work, I mean, I'm using the definition of work pretty broadly. I don't mean like You know, showing up at your marketing job and writing a memo. I mean, like, what is the work of your life? You know, like, what, what's the contribution that you want to make and the work that you really love to do? And, and that might be the work you're doing as a hobby on Sunday afternoons or, or what have you. But I think those are at the end of the day, the two things that really matter. Um, and I also, this is partly having to do with the next book that I'm writing. So I guess my mind is really in this place, but I think it's hugely important to be tuned in to the, the beauty of humanity and also the fragility of humanity, um, and to be tuned into your own beauty and fragility also, and, and then to be thinking about that for everybody who passes by you on the street. Like, everyone who passes by you has their own mix of those things and their own struggles, and, It's only when you're aware of them that you can really feel loving towards other people. How do you tune into that? So I think getting into that state by thinking about what people's stories are, and there's this amazing video that everybody should go and download it by, um, or you …

AI assessment note: “I think Freud had it right on this question. I think it's love, and”

Q How do you talk to them about this, like the, the social media and being themselves and, um, you know, having imperfections, if you will, or?

A Yeah, um, well, you know, the social media stuff hasn't really happened for them yet. Um, I mean, we definitely struggle with not having them on their iPads too much, but it's more about games. It's not really about, and, and also I have, um, I think boys. So I feel like the kinds of social pressures that come up on social media and stuff like that, I, I, I imagine that happens later in their lives, but it's not really happening yet. Um, but in terms of just like the imperfections of each person and the imperfections of life in general, I, I have actually found that when they get upset about something that happened or feel like, yeah, you know, just feel like something made them sad or mad or whatever, um, I find that when I tell them, well, that's kind of how life is. You know, you're going to have good days and bad days, and you're going to have joy, and you're also going to have times that you feel upset. Um, I find that that is the quickest thing to make them feel better, because I think a lot of, a lot of times when we get upset about something, we don't even realize it, but it's coming from a feeling that it's not supposed to be this way, like something went horribly wrong. Um, and so in addition to the thing itself, you're kind of feeling like it should be different. It should be better. Um, and I think understanding that, you know, everything is just inherently mixed an…

AI assessment note: “when I tell them, well, that's kind of how life is”

Q I'm curious about the, I think it's a spectrum, right, of introversion to extroversion, and we all fall somewhere on that. How does that change? Does it change with where we are in life? Does it change with environment? What impacts that?

A Oh, yeah, both. I mean, so, you know, even in the course of a single day, you, you, I think most people find that In the company of one person, they're more introverted. In the company of another, they're more extroverted. And sometimes it just depends on what activities they're doing. Um, so there's a lot of fluctuation. And then over the course of a lifetime, you know, one thing that happens that I think confuses people, um, and people will say to me a lot, uh, you know, I, I now go around and give speeches all the time and do media and things like that. And they'll say, oh, so ironically you've become more of an extrovert. And I always say, no, I mean, totally not. It's, it's more that I've over time gained the skills to be able to do these things. Um, and I want to do them cause I really care about what I'm saying. So I'm doing something that's vaguely uncomfortable in the service of something I care about, but, but my underlying nature has not changed at all, you know? Um, and so I think we, we often confuse skills with, with our true nature. Um, and the real question to me is, how would you choose to spend your time if you truly had no social or professional obligations? What would you be doing? You know, and how many people would you choose to spend it with?

AI assessment note: “Oh, yeah, both. I mean, so, you know, even in the course of a single day”

Q different environments? Like, if you were to design an office environment for a company with, say, a thousand employees, uh, and so you have a mix of introverts and extroverts, and you have a range of, of business functions, from marketing to HR to, um, programming to maybe legal, and how would you go about, um, Um, thinking about that, I mean, would, yeah, how would you think about that?

A Oh, I see what you mean. It's a little bit of both. Um, so first of all, I think it's important to design workplaces now, nowadays, where people have a choice of how they'd like to work. So, um, a place where people can move freely back and forth between private spaces and open communal spaces, I think is the ideal. And at the same time, there also are definitely job functions where, Regardless of what kind of personality you have, you just need more privacy than for others, you know. Um, so being a lawyer is a really good example because you're often doing very confidential stuff. Um, and, and also you're often having to really sit down and think deeply in a way that would be really distracting if you had too much going on around you, which is something I've heard many journalists talk about too. Um, you know, journalists now having to kind of crank out pieces on deadlines and they're in a, Really busy, um, chaotic office often tell me about how much trouble they have with that. So I think it's a little bit of both of job function and personality. And I, and I, I do, I do think like the best bet just as a kind of rule of thumb is offices that have enough flexibility that anybody can get what the space they need at a given time.

AI assessment note: “a place where people can move freely back and forth between private spaces and open”

Q I guess that goes with you obviously marrying an extrovert, and do you think it's a balancing thing? Like, it forces you just a little bit out of your default, or do you think it, there's something else going on there?

A I think it's a little bit of both. Um, and I will say, when it comes to marriages, uh, according to the literature, and also from what I see, about half of the marriages are, um, with people of the same, two people of the same personality style, and then about half are these introvert, extrovert, Uh, pairings, which makes sense because there's pros and cons to both ways of doing it. But, um, for your question about the introvert extrovert pairings, yeah, I think if you marry someone who's not of your type, yeah, they're, they're pulling you out into another space. And I think there's also a feeling that they're good at doing things that you are not. And I mean, on a pragmatic level, that's just helpful, but I think it also, Make, you also admire them for being able to do things that, that you can't do and vice versa. And, and, and then I think you feel appreciated for bringing in the pieces that are unique to you. So I, it's not that one is thinking about all of that consciously, but I think that's all, um, going on.

AI assessment note: “I think it's a little bit of both.”

Q How do you create space in your relationship? I think in your TED talk you mentioned you're married to an extrovert, and you have kids, and you have, how do you do that?

A Yeah, um, well, I, I will say I have a huge advantage in that my work affords me so much solitude, you know, because that's the nature of writing. Um, that's obviously not true on the days that I'm speaking and doing media and stuff like that, but I do have a lot of work time where I'm, you know, sitting in a cafe with my laptop, so that's a huge, huge help compared to many people I speak to who have jobs where they really have to be on all day, you know, and then they face the thing of, like, I was just on all day at work, and now I came home, and my wife wants time, and my children want time, and there's no time for them.

AI assessment note: “I have a huge advantage in that my work affords me so much solitude”

Q You were doing that when you were on Wall Street, though, right?

A Yeah, but I didn't have kids back then. And I don't, you know, even on Wall Street, I don't know. I worked at a law firm where we all had our own offices, and the work I was doing was pretty cerebral, so even though there were a lot of days where I'd be Intensive meetings and conference calls. There was also quite a bit of time kind of sitting alone in my office, thinking through, you know, a hundred page documents. So that helped. But I don't know, I guess I would say, you know, like even on the days when it's sort of an all hands family day, you know, I'll, I'll say to my husband, I'd like to go take a walk now and he gets it. And so it's just not a big deal. I would say. I also find that for me, and I think for a lot of introverts, Um, the time that I spend with other people who I know really well, like family, is very relaxing compared to time spent with people I don't know well, because there's not that feeling of, like, you have to be on.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, but I didn't have kids back then.”

Q Sounds awesome. Um, do you, do you use them as inspiration for your own writing?

A I use everything, all, all signs of creativity around me, for me, are inspirations for my own writing. Um, so, you know, it, it's books, but it's also music or movies or anything. Like, I feel, I don't know where this motivation comes from, but I, I feel really driven to just express what it's like to be alive and to just tell the truth about it. Cause I don't think people tell the truth about it most of the time. Um, and I really worry about this with social media that I feel like, especially, you know, younger kids being raised on social media, um, don't even know what it's like to tell the full truth because everything, um, Is so curated, and even diaries nowadays, you know, are kind of, like, kept online for all to see. I really want to figure out, like, what's difficult about being alive, and I don't know, you know, I, I think that's actually what makes us feel love, like, understanding how difficult it can be sometimes, and that everybody's, everyone's facing the same thing. So that's a roundabout answer to your question, because any time I hear any kind of, um, music that expresses that, or go to a play that's really great, all of that, like, I'll come out of it feeling doubly inspired to make my own contribution.

AI assessment note: “I use everything, all, all signs of creativity around me, for me, are inspirations”

Q What do you tend to envy and get jealous of?

A Well, it's a good question, because it's more like, what did I used to envy, I think. I, I mean, I, I think I came to that insight, I, I may have written about this in the book, I think I did, that, um, I had this moment, you know, so I used to be a corporate lawyer, and it really, really was not what I should have been doing, and I would notice that if I would get together with other With friends in, in my field, with fellow lawyers, you know, they would talk about someone who had just gotten to argue a brief before the Supreme Court, or, um, you know, some, some other legal accolade, or somebody was running for office or something, and they were filled with, with envy, really, and I, and I would think, huh, I, I don't feel that at all. You know, uh, like I, I just feel happy for that person. I don't, I don't feel envious. And I, you know, at first I was sort of congratulating myself for being able to be so generously happy without feeling envy. And then I realized, you know, that that's really not it. It's just that I don't want these things myself. Um, but there were other kinds of things that made me envious. And, you know, back then it was people who were kind of doing what I'm now doing, um, that I was really envious of. So I, it was from that I started to realize, wow, it's like, it's the, it's the things you envy that, that point you in the direction of what do you real…

AI assessment note: “back then it was people who were kind of doing what I'm now doing”

Q You mentioned office environments, um, earlier when you were on Wall Street and you had an office and you were reading these hundred page documents and you can kind of close the door and create some personal space. It seems increasingly the world is moving towards, uh, for whatever reason, open offices. Maybe, can you tell me how does an office, physical office environment affect people?

A Oh my gosh, it is so huge. I can't even tell you. And I'll say, when I was interviewing for my law firm jobs, so this was all the way back in 1994, I guess, I, I had like 10 interviews at different law firms, and I, I still remember this, I went around with a legal pad, like, taking notes on the different interviews, and the first thing that I wrote down in my notes was what kind of office space we would, we as the young associate lawyers would get, um, and some lawyers you got your own, I'm sorry, and some law firms you got your own office, And in others, you had to share an office. And I really wanted to work only at the ones where you got your own office. And, you know, and it was still really nice. You had all, all the other lawyers, like the way these law firms are set up, it would be like a hallway and everybody had their own office. And it felt like a college dorm in a way, like all your friends were right down the hall and you could go visit each other, but you still had your own private space. Um, so, you know, I, I really enjoyed that. And then When I started researching quiet, I didn't even know about open office spaces at that point. I didn't know they existed. Um, this was back in 2006, but I decided that Silicon Valley was likely to be a nirvana for introverts. So I flew to Silicon Valley and I just plopped myself down there, um, and started visiting people in the…

AI assessment note: “Oh my gosh, it is so huge. I can't even tell you.”