The Exchanges

Q I think that's a great perspective on that. And you mentioned the IPO. Well, going through the IPO, you were also going through a pretty big personal issue. Are you comfortable talking about that?

A Yeah. Yeah, I am. Um, I would say I used to not be. And then I think what's been eyeopening for me is so many people go through a version of a health challenge and are trying to think about how to navigate their career while they go through it. And When I did finally start sharing my story, I was touched by how many people reached out and were experiencing something similar. And I think there's so much solidarity in that shared experience. Um, so in May of, uh, I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer. I didn't have a family history. Uh, I had no reason to suspect that I would have it, and so it was very blindsiding, and this was shortly after Bumble had been acquired by Blackstone. I was loving and thriving, working with the private equity team, restructuring the business, working through the hundred day plan. It was terrifying, and Whitney was one of the first people that I told. And she was an unbelievable support through that process. But, but one of the things I felt like I realized pretty quickly is that I didn't have the same degree of emotional bandwidth as I might have before. I can specifically remember being, getting a biopsy and like awaiting the results and then going through my inbox on my phone. And like, like I couldn't even process some of the things that were coming up and like this person's title and like, when are these performance reviews and whatnot?…

AI assessment note: “Yeah. Yeah, I am... I was diagnosed with stage three breast cancer.”

Q woman-led businesses. My friend Kat Cole, who is one of our most popular episodes ever, recommended I speak with Sarah, and after you listen to this episode, you'll know exactly why. Sarah has a remarkable story. We talk about scaling a business, hiring others, her journey with cancer, woman-led companies, fundraising, boundary setting, and so much more. It's time to listen and learn. What are you obsessed with right now?

A Strength training. I've gotten really into lifting heavy weights. There's something that's so cathartic about just like picking up a huge kettlebell and swinging it many times. And I feel like I, you know, I've had various chapters with fitness in my life and mostly lean towards endurance stuff. Long distance swimming, running. I did, I did do an Ironman at one point, but had never really gotten into strength training until for health reasons. I was told, you know, my bones are at risk, so I need to pound them basically and make them stronger and started working with someone who's really helped me with that. And then love it. I do it twice a week. It's like the highlight of my week. So I would say I'm obsessed with training.

AI assessment note: “Strength training. I've gotten really into lifting heavy weights.”

Q and the diverse perspectives, uh, illuminate some of our blind spots with, uh, when other people have different experiences or different scenarios, because often we make decisions based on anecdotes or our personal experience. And so getting that other experience is, is really key. Talk about hiring people. You've hired, worked with, evaluated people to join companies for scaling. What, what do you look for? What lessons have you learned?

A Yeah, that's a great question. You know, I think first and foremost, it's commitment to the mission. And I've had the privilege of working at purpose-built, mission-driven companies, but you know, if, if all of the hard skills are there, but someone doesn't actually believe in what you're trying to do, That's a deal breaker, right? That there needs to be this belief in what you're trying to build. And I don't think that becomes an excuse for things like overwork or underpay. I think it becomes a unifying factor that helps people remember what their north star is. So I, I do look for that first and foremost. Look for a lot of curiosity. Um, one of the things that we would often ask in Bumble interviews is for feedback on the product. And We were expecting that people had engaged with the product in some way, shape or form. And luckily Bumble had, you know, obviously it's a, it's a dating platform, but also has friend finding tools. It has business networking tools. There's something for everyone there. And I think it's important that people had enough intellectual curiosity that they wanted to play with it, that they had ideas for improvement, et cetera. I interviewed a woman the other day, um, For a role that found, and you know, she came with a bulleted list of everything that she felt like we needed to change in the onboarding experience, and it was amazing, right? I just lov…

AI assessment note: “I think first and foremost, it's commitment to the mission.”

Q Wait, wait, how, what are those things? How do you, how do you test for this?

A I mean, some of it is like, how did they deal With the ambiguity of the situation, like how do they react if there's a super long line or if they couldn't find the place or if they're running late, like it's just little cues like that, that I think give you a sense of, of this person and how they operate. Um, there, there's an, another one, this is not an intentional interview question necessarily, but another thing that's very important to me is kindness and kindness over niceness. And one of the things That the, the easiest example that I can give is that a kind person will tell you, you have spinach in your teeth and a nice person won't because it's uncomfortable, right? But the kind person is going to set you up for a much better rest of your day because you're not running around with spinach in your teeth. And the moment I met the woman who is my current COO at found, she was in the business before I was, And I swear I didn't do this on purpose, but the very first meeting I had lipstick on my teeth and she told me right away. And I was like, this is it. Like, I know I want to work with this woman because I want us to be in a place where we sharpen each other and want each other to be our best. And that tiny thing was just such a good example of like setting me up well for the rest of the meeting. And maybe there was this like momentary discomfort, but not really. Right. Li…

AI assessment note: “how did they deal With the ambiguity of the situation, like how do they react”

Q like I have a lot of empathy for, for how that would have felt to get this news and go through that process and work with these people. And then my mind just jumps to like How did it change you? How did it change you professionally? How did it change you personally? What do you do differently now as a result of this? How do you live life differently?

A Yeah, I think the quick answer to your first question is like, I do feel like I got an up close and personal view of the healthcare system, the, the good, bad, and otherwise. Um, but I'm incredibly grateful to the team of providers that I had the privilege of working with here in Austin at MD Anderson, you know, UT Neurosciences. And so just unbelievably grateful for that. It does change you. I hate that it takes something like this to give us that level of perspective, but that genuinely is the silver lining for me. I just think there's a level of gratitude that I have for like the, the simple things and an understanding and clarity of purpose. You know, on the one hand, it's freeing because like, My daughter and I talk a little bit about big deals and little deals, you know, and we'll have like little deals, like being late for school, right, which like before might have given me so much anxiety, and now I'm like, well, the big deal was surviving a year and a half of cancer treatment. It, a lot of these other things, it helps us to put them into perspective, but I think for me, it was super clarifying professionally as well. As I said before, I love work. I really do think part of What brings me joy and energy in my existence is, is the outpouring of things that I can build into the teams that I get to be a part of, and the amazing products that we make that change the world.…

AI assessment note: “it helps us to put them into perspective, but I think for me, it was super clarifying professionally”

Q like I have a lot of empathy for, for how that would have felt to get this news and go through that process and work with these people. And then my mind just jumps to like How did it change you? How did it change you professionally? How did it change you personally? What do you do differently now as a result of this? How do you live life differently?

A Yeah, I think the quick answer to your first question is like, I do feel like I got an up close and personal view of the healthcare system, the good, bad, and otherwise, um, but I'm incredibly grateful to the team of providers that I had the privilege of working with here in Austin, at MD Anderson, you know, UT Neurosciences, and so just unbelievably grateful for that. It does change you. I hate that it takes something like this to give us that level of perspective, but that genuinely is the silver lining for me. I just think there's a Level of gratitude that I have for like the, the simple things and an understanding and clarity of purpose. You know, on the one hand it's freeing because like my daughter and I talk a little bit about big deals and little deals, you know, and we'll have like little deals, like being late for school. Right. Which like before might've given me so much anxiety. And now I'm like, well, the big deal was surviving a year and a half of cancer treatment. It, a lot of these other things, it helps us to put them into perspective. But I think for me, it was super clarifying professionally as well. As I said before, I love work. I really do think part of what brings me joy and energy in my existence is, is the outpouring of things that I can build into the teams that I get to be a part of and the amazing products that we make that change the world. And I, I…

AI assessment note: “it helps us to put them into perspective. But I think for me, it was super clarifying professionally”

Q I like that a lot. One of the things that you said that stuck out to me was a safe space to think out loud. And I'm just sort of thinking that in the context of the internet where we don't have a safe space to think out loud anymore. We can't play with ideas. How do you feel about that?

A It's an interesting statement. Maybe some of this even comes back, actually, to the conversation around attention span, and how much is fighting for our attention, and I think sometimes as a result of that, even things online, like, tend to a place of vitriol, or, like, can get ugly quickly. You know, Whitney talked a lot about that in her origin story of Bumble, and how the experience that she lived with on the things that were said to her online, like, really shaped her vision for what Bumble could be, And so I, I think maybe that's a part of it is like we, the internet allows us to feel like we have a mask on and people won't know our true selves. We may say things that we wouldn't say in person to folks. I think that, um, there, these are all somewhat interrelated ideas and that's where I also think there's no replacement for like true quality relationships and finding Finding those safe spaces in all of your lives, right? Like, investing in friendships, investing in sibling relationships. Our relationships are what make us human, and they give our life so much quality, and I, I hope that we can all find safe spaces somewhere in our lives to, like, really say things out loud and reflect on who we are, reflect on what we're challenged by, be able to do it in a way that doesn't create fear or mistrust, and I think it comes back to this idea of just being really authentic and …

AI assessment note: “there's no replacement for like true quality relationships and finding Finding those safe spaces”

Q And what, what lessons did you learn in sort of that series B process?

A Oh, gosh. I mean, fundraising is always interesting and eye-opening. Um, it was candidly a little bit of a worry for me early on of, you know, I've, I have actually tried to raise funds before while pregnant, and that was challenging, and so I'm taking some of those learnings and thinking, gosh, now how are people gonna react when I'm trying to raise money, and they know that I've, like, publicly been on this health journey, you know, what kind of questions am I gonna get? Are they gonna worry? That I might die before we spend all of the money and give them their return. And I would actually say that I was pleasantly surprised by just how much investors bought in to what we were building, the problem we were trying to solve, my ability to help solve it because of the health challenges that I've faced. It gives me a deeper understanding of the problem. So I, I didn't feel like that held me back. And I realized what a privilege that is, especially as a woman, like it is so discouraging to me that there are still so little capital that flows. To women CEOs and women founders. And, you know, I, I've tried to do my part as an individual on that front. We did so much at Bumble to try to invest in women leaders, but we all really need to continue to stay focused on that and on the calibration that's necessary there. Um, and I just hope that I can use this experience and prove to our i…

AI assessment note: “I was pleasantly surprised by just how much investors bought in”

Q Talk me through a little bit about that. Um, the pro the information gathering process. How do you know when to stop? How do you know when you've got enough information or the, the utility of the information you're collecting from this point on is really low.

A I don't know that I always get that right. If I'm honest, Um, you know, I started my career to hedge fund and I think like in that role, like you just, you do such a level of analysis that there's sometimes when I have that muscle memory of like, let's go a layer deeper. Let's go a layer deeper. Let's go a layer deeper. Like, but I don't have the time to do that. To be honest, if I did that for every decision, like the business would never get to move forward. And so I think it depends on the decision. I think this is also a place where bringing on great leaders and Being able to trust that they've done the exhaustive work and that they can give you their highlights and their best recommendations, and then the right amount of data points to support that. And you trust that there's like a iceberg worth of data underneath it. Um, you know, I think that's how I get comfortable moving a little more quickly. I think the times that I take a bit longer when there's a decision where two people I trust have really conflicting points of view on something. And I am probably still trying to build the muscle around helping them come to agreement in the most effective way so that it really shouldn't feel like an either or situation, but a best of. And candidly, that's a muscle that I'm still building. I am new in the CEO seat. I've, I've been doing this job for three and a half months now. U…

AI assessment note: “Being able to trust that they've done the exhaustive work”

Q That's a bold strategy showing up to an interview with that, eh?

A She sort of waited until it was, she waited until it was an appropriate moment in the conversation. It wasn't sort of like, hey, can I buy you a latte and here's my list? Um, It, but it came up really organically and she had really detailed thoughts about it. And I also appreciated that she had spent so much time in the onboarding flow. She had actually responded to one of the emails that we, you get from our team. It's like, Hey, I'm here to answer any questions. And she did, she asked a bunch of questions and she asked the person to get on the phone. And, and I think that comes back to this idea of commitment to the mission. It's, it's a problem she cares about solving, and it resonates deeply with her, and obviously there's a bunch of kind of technical and skill assessment stuff that we will always need to go through, but I think looking for that passion and looking for leaders, as I said before, with a lot of versatility, especially in the early days, if there's a An instinct towards stay in my lane, you know, that's, that's great at a certain stage of company. That's not always the most effective when you're in a really high growth phase. Um, I'll tell a story, and then I should ask her permission if I can tell it, but, um, I'm very close with my sister. I have two sisters and a brother, um, but the one that's right under me, we have had, you know, similar career paths. I …

AI assessment note: “She sort of waited until it was an appropriate moment in the conversation.”

Q One of the other differences, um, working online that I think is now you have multiple conversations going on. There's the text message conversation. There's the zoom chat conversation. There's the actual conversation. There's the background emailer, um, you know, the distracted conversation. What are the rules and norms and what have you noticed around this? That's sort of like really effective for getting the most out of people.

A I would not say we've perfected this, but we are trying. I, I think. Being clear about what happens on what channels, right? So sock is our primary form of communication. We try to reserve email for things that require a lot of context or involve external parties, but it shouldn't be like the ongoing day-to-day engine that sock is the water cooler in our case, um, both the water cooler. And I think I like general workflow management texts for urgent stuff. Um, phone calls more than you think. I feel like we've gotten away from Picking up the phone and talking to someone. And I don't know about you, but I've been in so many situations where you're like, you know what the shortcut to this is? I'm just going to call them. Like something is being lost in translation. And I think that comes back to the trust piece again, like voice on voice does build trust more than Slack to Slack does. So, uh, trying to be intentional about that. The other thing that I have found personally is that I do not do my best thinking in front of a screen where it is like, This ping, and this ping, and like all of these different things popping up and distracting you. I do my best thinking walking, and walking even more so than like sitting in a different room, because I think you, you can eliminate some of those distractions. I remember there was a phase in my treatment where I spent a lot of time in Hou…

AI assessment note: “Being clear about what happens on what channels, right? So sock is our primary”

Q When we talk about creating psychological safety, what are the key variables that come to your mind?

A I think if people are always worried about their job security or saying the right thing or feeling like, like they're questioning their worth in a conversation or in a meeting or in a role, you're not going to get the best work out of them. And, and each of our jobs as leaders, right, is to create the conditions where people can do the best work of their career. And so how do you make sure that they are standing on solid ground so that they're expending their intellectual energy On doing the best work of their career, as opposed to expending that same mental energy on trying to tell you what you want to hear or worrying about if someone else is docking for their job or going around them. Um, and so I think this idea of like, how do I give you solid ground to stand on is something that, that I do try to think about as a leader and that I coach and other leaders that I get to work with. Um, but Giving people that sense of stability. And some of that is being reliable as a leader. And like, again, creating that foundation. Some of it comes back to trust that we were talking about before, knowing someone as a human, being clear that you care about them as a human being kind. And then again, giving them a firm foundation to stand on. To me, those are the elements that create enough psychological safety that can empower honesty and, I think it takes a lot of intention to get there. I…

AI assessment note: “Giving people that sense of stability. And some of that is being reliable as a leader”