The Exchanges

Q No, like what made you want to write that book?

A I've always been interested in writing, uh, and kind of writing for pop for popular audiences. And, uh, I had been playing in the space of thinking about the science of science and kind of the nature of how, what we know changes and kind of like looking actually at the regularities of this and trying to understand, um, how to quantify this kind of area. And, and, and I had even begun and kind of in the early stages of doing some research related to that. Uh, but then actually wrote this little piece, uh, about, Uh, what I called miso facts. So miso facts were sort of facts that, um, bits of information that change neither too slowly nor too rapidly. They're sort of at the middle or miso scale. Um, the idea is that, uh, there's bits of knowledge, uh, that change very, very rarely, like, um, how many constants there are on the planet. You learn those once you're good. Uh, then there's bits of information that change fairly quickly, like what the stock market closed out yesterday or, or what the weather's gonna be like tomorrow. We're pretty good at updating those kinds of information. Um, but in between, there's a whole slew of things that we often learn the same way we learn the unchanging facts, like things, um, like how many billions of people there are on the planet, or how many elements there are on the periodic table. These things change, but they might change over the cour…

AI assessment note: “I wrote this little essay about it, uh, and it got a lot of attention.”

Q Those are things that get passed down, um, family to family because it really resonated with you. Uh, are you going to be telling your kids to look things up in physical books or are you going to be telling them to look it up on the internet or?

A Wherever you can find things. And I happen to have a lot of physical books, but the internet's also a great source of information. I mean, I would say physical books are a great hedge against like technological change. And I know if like my physical book, if I like 20 years from now, um, it will still be kind of backwards compatible with the human eye. Um, but, uh, and like an ebook, not entirely clear, but at the same time, if you want the most up to date knowledge, In some ways in the internet and like Wikipedia in particular, it's kind of the closest thing we have to complete world knowledge. I say that kind of flippantly, but I think there's some truth to that. And I think having access to those, to that kind of up-to-date information is really, really powerful and really important. And I think, um, a balance between the old and the perennially wise, uh, encapsulated kind of maybe in like older books versus kind of the up-to-date and the recent, um, encapsulated on the things you can look up online is a really good balance to kind of Think about the world and like, and understand it.

AI assessment note: “Wherever you can find things. And I happen to have a lot of physical books”

Q Is there any other advice you would have for people to integrate their thinking about technology, uh, and how to approach it?

A So I would say, I mean, I would say one, one way that a lot of people think about technology, like every day, like when you're like, you're looking at your, um, your iPhone and something, and it does something weird. Um, we, we often think with technology, like it's okay to kind of outsource our understanding because there's always some expert. Um, like an Apple genius who can fix it or can understand it. And I think we recognize that in many cases that might not actually be true. There might be no expert who can fully understand the system. Uh, then it'll be more than, then we'll be a little bit more deliberate and actually trying to understand these technologies. And I think one thing that, um, from an engineering perspective, we need to, um, build into these technologies, um, as well as something I think people just need to be mindful of looking for is trying to find ways of kind of glimpsing what's happening underneath the hood. Of a technology. Um, and cause I think for too long, we think a system is like perfect or really nice until something goes wrong and suddenly we're like the actual complexity and complication is revealed to us. Um, and it's a lot better to have ways of kind of glimpsing the underlying complexity underneath something that feels kind of very simplified, um, and, and, and very pristine. Um, and so whether or not that's like as simple as like playing wi…

AI assessment note: “trying to find ways of kind of glimpsing what's happening underneath the hood”

Q What was your process for writing? Like, what did you do every day? How did you go about that?

A So for, uh, for this most recent book, which I have maybe a better memory of, the way I did it was I set myself a goal of kind of just a certain amount of text to create per day, uh, at least as the initial step, I said something like, A thousand words a day, and so I just write a thousand words, and it didn't have to be on a single topic, uh, it didn't have to be good, um, it could be kind of on various things that I wanted to write about, um, it kind of, or it could be multiple things that I wanted to write about related to the book over the course of the thousand words, uh, and then when I got something that was book length, uh, then I kind of took it all, printed it out, kind of began rearranging it, realized that there were parts in it, uh, that I wanted to remove, there were parts that needed to be fleshed out significantly, there were things that needed to be connected, uh, and then I kind of Went through this kind of iterative smoothing process, and eventually I felt like I had something. Then I took the first chapter, kind of the introductory chapter, showed it to my wife. Uh, she read it and said, this is garbage. Uh, and then, and I said, well, what do you mean by that? And so we actually had this long discussion about kind of the discrepancy between what I thought I was writing about and what I actually had written. Uh, and then, uh, I explained to her what my goal,…

AI assessment note: “I said something like, A thousand words a day, and so I just write”

Q What was your favorite chapter in the book?

A So I would say my favorite chapter might be the final chapter, um, where I look at, uh, one of the perspectives of technology that I think, I mean, I would say people sometimes when they're confronted with technology, they don't understand, um, or maybe they can't even understand, um, is they often respond with one of two extremes of either fear in the face of the unknown or this reverential, almost Like, religious sense of awe towards technology they don't understand, um, and, and I think both of these, um, while they're fairly common, um, they're not good, um, mainly because they end up cutting off questioning, um, because if you're really afraid of something, you're so afraid you can't even question it, and if you have this reverential awe towards something, you, you don't realize that Maybe it's actually a lot messier than it really is, and I think somewhere in between, almost like a humble but constantly questioning approach toward technology is really the way we need to think about it, and, and I use, and I use the analogy of, I kind of look at, um, uh, the way certain philosophers in the Middle Ages, uh, approach the world around them. Uh, so I use the example of Moses Maimonides, a philosopher from the 12th century, I believe, and he, he recognized that, and there were things that We would never understand. Like, there are natural limits to what the human mind can under…

AI assessment note: “my favorite chapter might be the final chapter”

Q I like that. I think for me, The chapter that resonated, or actually the, the two ways of thinking that I took away from the book that I thought were incredibly insightful were the biological versus physical thinking, so specifically chapter five. Um, can you walk us through the differences between those two and how they manifest themselves when viewing technology?

A Sure. So, um, so I use this kind of dichotomy of two modes of thinking, which I, I call like Physics thinking or biological thinking, um, and it's an oversimplification, and of course not all biologists use biological thinking, not all physicists use physics-style thinking, so kind of with that caveat in mind, the two modes are that the, um, the physics mode of thinking takes something and, and tries to kind of create a simple, a simple means of understanding, um, the, the vast majority of, so like, for example, like a single equation that explains the vast majority of the motion of objects, um, And, or like, or you can write down, like, a single formula, and it would explain, like, 50% of what's going on in cities and how they, and how they work. Something, something like that. On the other extreme, you have the, um, the biological approach, which says that you actually need to focus on the details, and that the details and kind of cataloging, um, the diverse instances of things that don't make sense, um, not only do the details matter, but sometimes that's, like, Those are wonderful, and they're really, really exciting. And, and you can see kind of those, um, those trends in, um, like certain biologists, like kind of the naturalists of old who would go around and collect butterflies, um, as well as, um, certain types of biologists who would just kind of, they focus on a certa…

AI assessment note: “the two modes are that the, um, the physics mode of thinking takes something”

Q I agree with that. Are there any other books that kind of dramatically impacted your life?

A So I would say, so another book that I really, I would say it was probably one of the best books I've read in the past few years in like the nonfiction realm is Is, um, the book Immortality, um, by the philosopher Stephen Cave, where he looks at, um, the different ways in which humanity has tried to live forever, um, both kind of since ancient times as well, kind of the modern versions, like things like, um, uh, immortality of the soul, or just simply immortality through not dying. And he looks at kind of the ancient, the ancient version of it as well as the modern version of it. And, and eventually he kind of, he actually goes through all of these and, um, And find them all wanting, which is kind of interesting. Um, it's an unbelievable book. Find them all wanting. And then he says, okay, what is the, like, what, how should we respond? And he, he ends up falling back on, um, wisdom literature, sort of like things like Ecclesiastes or the, um, the, the kind of writings of, of the Stoics and says, these are the kind of things like recognizing that like, even in the transience of life, you can still make life meaningful. Um, and so the book is unbelievable. Um, it kind of deals with these very, very, Deep themes of humanity, like mortality, immortality, meaning in life. And, uh, but it also weaves in, um, amazing stories like about Alexander the Great's life, um, or the first emp…

AI assessment note: “another book that I really... is the book Immortality, by the philosopher Stephen Cave”

Q Who's the best teacher you've ever had and what made them the best teacher?

A The best teacher I've ever had? Ooh, um, probably my parents. Um, I mean, they, uh, they were very good in not only encouraging me to kind of always look things up and kind of showing me and guiding me on, like, how to learn new things, but also really, they were really instrumental in just making sure I, um, like, always kind of, like, thought about the world in playful ways, and actually, so the, um, The thing that I was always told by my father before I left to school, before I left for school when I was little was the phrase, uh, think, have fun, and be a mensch. Um, and, and be a mensch is sort of the, and mensch is like Yiddish for kind of like being a good person. And, and essentially he wanted to kind of instill in me these like three ideas that you have to think about the world. You can't, you can't just kind of have this kind of unquestioning attitude towards it. You have, you have to have fun. You have to have kind of this like playful attitude towards the world. It's not just like, I mean, Especially when you're learning new things, it shouldn't be rote. It shouldn't be boring. It should be playful and should be exciting. You should have this kind of always the sense of curiosity. And of course you should also be a good person while doing all these, these three, these, these different things. And I think that kind of attitude, um, and a perspective, um, I've really …

AI assessment note: “The best teacher I've ever had? Ooh, um, probably my parents.”

Q That dovetails into, uh, my next question, which is, how do you, how do you go about defining success for yourself?

A So, um, that's a great question. Uh, so I think success, um, and so certainly there are like external metrics, uh, and I, uh, there's a, um, there's a great book called, um, The Guide to the Good Life by William Irvine, I believe. It's a kind of, it's about essentially stoic wisdom. Um, and, uh, I think you might even mention it And discuss it on your, on your blog. Um, but essentially the idea of like, and one of the things he talks about is when you think about success, uh, there's, there's only so much you can control, especially externally in terms of one success. And the best way to try to be successful and at the same time be happy with one's attempts is to internalize kind of the, the success metrics. So like, for example, let's say you're trying to, um, write a novel. If you, I mean, there's the external metrics, like, Bestselling novel, well-regarded, critically acclaimed, all these different kinds of things, but then there's the, the internal metrics, which are, did you make the best version of, um, of the book possible? Uh, and I, and I think, and those are the kind of things you actually do have control over, and I have tried kind of, I'm more and more, and not always successfully, this is kind of a continuing thing, but to try to kind of make the, make metrics of success, success much more internal, where you try to do You, you try to be the best version of yoursel…

AI assessment note: “to try to kind of make the, make metrics of success, success much more internal”

Q And how did they encourage you to read, or was it just something you picked up, or you saw them doing, or?

A I imagine it was probably leading by example, because I think, I mean, I can remember, I, I, I know stories of, like, even, even at a young age, I was, like, trying to model my parents, and, like, kind of walking around with, like, little books, or, like, even if it was, like, some, like, little gray address book that really I wasn't reading, because, like, Like, obviously, it was a dress book, and I don't even know if I could read at that point, but, like, I wanted to kind of be a reader, and so I think it was a combination of modeling, having the books around, and also being encouraged, like, if I didn't know something, like, going to look it up, and I can remember, like, at, like, um, at dinners with my family, uh, and, like, when my grandparents were over, we'd have these debates, and then we would, like, one of us would go rush over and, like, grab the, like, a volume from the encyclopedia and try to actually look things up and see if someone was correct, and, like, and, and even, I, I still do the I still do those things now, um, at meals, just cause I, I feel like it's, it's great to have that.

AI assessment note: “I imagine it was probably leading by example, because I think”

Q Do you think that we will have the same emotional connection as humans to art that is derived from an algorithm as we do art that's derived from a person? Uh,

A Maybe. Um, I imagine if you don't tell someone where it comes from, you probably can get a similar kind of response, especially if it's almost indistinguishable. So like there are actually way, there are, um, there are computer techniques where you can give a, an image, uh, to a computer program and it will actually generate it in the style of famous artists. Uh, in some cases that actually looks pretty good. And I wonder if it would generate, uh, kind of yield the same sort of emotional reaction. Um, at the same time though, I think, I mean, maybe some emotional reactions for computational generator would be maybe flattened. People would say, oh, it's not, Doesn't feel as authentic, um, or maybe it would be frightening to some people when they realize that computers can kind of be creative in certain ways. Um, for me, it's really exciting just to kind of see the extent to which, uh, computationally generated art can be as beautiful as it is. I, I think that's actually really interesting to look at. Um, and so I'm, I'm maybe less bothered by some of the, like, epistemological issues, um, and just kind of saying, like, oh, these outputs are really cool. And plus, and it's also, and if they're, they're beautiful and they're also They're always different, and so, you can see this even kind of going back, like, Years ago when people first started doing like fractal art, um, either …

AI assessment note: “I imagine if you don't tell someone where it comes from, you probably can”

Q Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I do that all the time on my phone. So overcomplicated, can you give me or give us, I guess the audience, uh, an overview? I've read the book, but, uh, most people haven't. Um, can you give us an overview of the book and how it started?

A Sure. Yeah. So the idea behind the book is that, uh, we all know that That technologies are becoming more and more complex and kind of more complicated over time. Um, but increasingly technologies are becoming so complicated that not only just does the every everyday person not fully understand them, but, but increasingly even the experts who work on them with a daily basis, or even the people who built them don't necessarily fully understand them or their implications any longer. And so the book looks at kind of what, what are the forces of That lead us towards this ever greater incomprehensibility. And what do we do about it? Do we simply say like, eh, we're in trouble? Like this is kind of the new, the new state of being, or are there ways of, um, meeting these technologies halfway? And so I, I happen to be kind of fairly optimistic person by disposition. So I think there are ways of meeting these technologies halfway. And so I kind of lay out different perspectives and, uh, and, and ways of approaching, um, our technologies. And again, I'm, I'm using technology Um, fairly broadly. I'm using it to mean everything from, like, the software on your computer, to the entire internet, to our urban infrastructure, to even our legal systems, our legal codes.

AI assessment note: “the idea behind the book is that, uh, we all know that That technologies”

Q What surprised you the most as you were developing the book and the idea and fleshing out the ideas? Did you, you didn't have that preordained before you went in, I suspect.

A So, and I think with, and with this, it was more, I mean, initially, I knew there were, I knew there were many examples of this kind of thing, but as I was writing the book, uh, and as I was talking to people, it just became abundantly clear that an area after area, this kind of things, this incomprehensibility wasn't at the limits and like edges of our experience. Like this incomprehensibility is found in aspects of every, like every part of our lives. And so it's like, The software on our computers, on our desktops. It can be found in like medical devices, uh, kitchen appliances, in our cars with like, there are like millions of lines of code. Um, this like, like reduced understanding and vast complexity of technology is really everywhere we look. And I would say it's, it's probably been accelerated significantly due to the fact that we now have computation embedded within everything else. Um, there's only so many Levels of kind of like levels of hierarchy of complexity you can have if you don't have the ability to have code within something. And once you do though, then suddenly, um, it can baffle your mind. And I think that, um, that was really interesting to see. Um, and every time I discuss it with someone like from no matter what the domain, people would just give me more and more examples. And it was, it was fantastic and, and a little, um, a little surprising to see th…

AI assessment note: “it just became abundantly clear that an area after area, this kind of things”

Q the text is unchanging. How do you feel about the ability to update books, like update Kindle books, To reflect this latest information, maybe you go in, you add an extra chapter, you change some things around, you fix some errors. That's not possible in physical books. It is possible in the electronic kind of medium. How do you feel about that as an author, a scientist, given your research?

A So I, I think the possibility is interesting at the same time though, maybe as an author, like at a certain point, I mean, you know, the book is never done. There's always new things to add or other bits of information to update as we kind of learn new things about the world. Um, but at the same time, Maybe as an author, you kind of want to just be done and say, okay, like this is a finished product and like you have to be willing to kind of release it out into the world. And so I think, um, there are different types of products that are maybe, um, like outputs that are more well suited to constantly being updated and other ones that are kind of just like, this is a finished product and we can be done with it. Um, and I, I've heard stories of like, even like with novels of like people editing them, like right before they're going like on stage to, to To do a reading of their novels, even though, of course, the novel is done, because they just realize, oh, they want to, like, say things a little bit differently, and of course, they can't do that in a novel, and it's not even like, oh, the novel is being updated with new information, it's just being, like, there's always tinkering to be done. I think there's always tinkering to be done, but I think you also have to kind of recognize that you spend a lot of time with it, and it's like, now, now you have to be willing to kind of mo…

AI assessment note: “I think the possibility is interesting at the same time though, maybe as an author”

Q Has that, oh, I have so many questions right now. Um, has that changed how you learn things? Like, do you view, do you prioritize learning differently now because of that?

A Um, I think ideally, uh, I think practically maybe I don't always as much as I should, but I know, I mean, when people talk about, uh, maybe it's more like how I kind of think about information. So for example, when people talk about how, uh, the internet and Google is ruining our brains or our memories, um, I am actually much more positively inclined towards those technologies simply because it, if we don't necessarily have as good memories anymore, It means that we now actually have to look things up more often and make sure we actually have the information correct, which means we are more likely to have the most up-to-date bit of knowledge. Uh, so I actually think those kinds of things are really good. Uh, and I think for me, after working on that book, I think it's also, I just, I've gotten better at delighting in being wrong and having the facts that I thought were true being overturned. Cause I know this is the way of the world. And I think this is kind of, and for me, it's more just Having a scientific mindset towards everything around me, and science, I mean, science is, it's a body of knowledge, but even more important than that, science is really a means of querying the world, and I think recognizing that everything we know is constantly in draft form is really, like, like, that's the way we should be thinking about the world, and so whether or not, uh, you're doing s…

AI assessment note: “maybe it's more like how I kind of think about information.”

Q As somebody, you, you're a practitioner of both, right?

A Oh, that, that is an interesting question. I think, uh, I mean, so here's the thing. So first of all, if you ask a lot of scientists, I think they would discuss how there's a lot of art within the science and how science is conducted and the way in which you ask questions. And of course you still have to answer those questions in very, in a very rigorous and kind of scientific and perhaps non-artistic way, but the way you can ask questions and sometimes even the way you answer them, if you can think of like a very clever example, A clever experiment. There's often a certain amount of art to that as well. So, um, so I actually think a number of scientists would, um, would kind of push back at that question. At the same time though, I think, uh, I think they're both very necessary. I think they're both kind of different. I mean, I'm not even sure how different ways they are about thinking about the world. They're kind of both approaches. Um, they're both approaches to querying the world, but they're also ways of producing is beautiful things. And so Uh, and science is almost like beautiful output constrained by reality, and, and art is also beautiful output constrained by reality of the media that you're using, uh, in some very different sort of ways. Uh, I'm not entirely sure if that was a non-answer, um, but I think they're both very good, and at the same time, though, I, there…

AI assessment note: “they're both approaches to querying the world, but they're also ways of producing is beautiful things”