The Exchanges

Q And is it technology that's causing us to feel lonely, or do we go to technology because we feel lonely, and we, we seek out sort of technology as a way to feel connected, or find people like us?

A So when I started my research, I was agnostic about the role that technology and social media played in today's loneliness crisis, but the more I dug into the academic literature, and there's by now, of course, a vast body of this, the more I came to believe that technology was Net a problem here. Up until about a year and a half ago, it was hard to actually establish definitively whether it was just correlation that people who were lonely were spending more time, for example, on social media, um, or was it causative? And there was a landmark study that was carried out by Stanford University about a year and a half ago, a real gold standard of a study where they had 3000, um, participants 1500 in a control group, and the other 1500 were expressly charged to go off, in this case, Facebook. The results were very clear. The group who went off Facebook for two months were significantly less lonely, significantly happier, and interestingly spent significantly more time doing things in person with friends and family, so it wasn't that they just migrated, um, onto, um, other platforms, and, and since then there have been a few other studies which have supported this, saying that, showing that social media Actually makes people feel more lonely, but even our devices play a part here. We've all done it. We've all been in a room with our partner. Or our family. Heads in our phones, not e…

AI assessment note: “whether it was just correlation... or was it causative? And there was a landmark study”

Q And is it technology that's causing us to feel lonely, or do we go to technology because we feel lonely, and we, we seek out sort of technology as a way to feel connected, or find people like us?

A So when I started my research, I was agnostic about the role that technology and social media played in today's loneliness crisis, but the more I dug into the academic literature, and there's by now, of course, a vast body of this, the more I came to believe that technology was Net a problem here. Up until about a year and a half ago, it was hard to actually establish definitively whether it was just correlation that people who were lonely were spending more time, for example, on social media, um, or was it causative? And there was a landmark study that was carried out by Stanford University about a year and a half ago, a real gold standard of a study where they had 3000, um, participants 1500 in a control group, and the other 1500 were expressly charged to go off, in this case, Facebook. The results were very clear. The group who went off Facebook for two months were significantly less lonely, significantly happier, and interestingly spent significantly more time doing things in person with friends and family, so it wasn't that they just migrated, um, onto, um, other platforms, and, and since then there have been a few other studies which have supported this, saying that, showing that social media Actually makes people feel more lonely, but even our devices play a part here. We've all done it. We've all been in a room with our partner. Or our family. Heads in our phones, not e…

AI assessment note: “the more I came to believe that technology was Net a problem here”

Q And is it technology that's causing us to feel lonely, or do we go to technology because we feel lonely and we, we seek out sort of technology as a way to feel connected or find people like us?

A So when I started my research, I was agnostic about the role that technology and social media played in today's loneliness crisis, but the more I dug into the academic literature, and there's by now, of course, a vast body of this, the more I came to believe that technology was net a problem here. Up until about a year and a half ago, it was hard to actually establish definitively whether it was just Correlation that people who were lonely were spending more time, for example, on social media, um, or was it causative? And there was a landmark study that was carried out by Stanford University about a year and a half ago, a real gold standard of a study where they had 3000, um, participants, 1500 in a control group, and the other 1500 were expressly charged to go off, in this case, Facebook. The results were very clear. The group who went off Facebook for two months were significantly less lonely, significantly happier, and interestingly spent significantly more time doing things in person with friends and family, so it wasn't that they just migrated, um, onto, um, other platforms. And, and since then, there have been a few other studies which have supported this, saying that, showing that social media actually makes people feel more lonely, but even our devices play a part here. We've all done it. We've all been in a room with our partner or our family, heads in our phones, not …

AI assessment note: “the more I came to believe that technology was net a problem here”

Q Is this a Western Eastern culture thing too? Like, does this transfer across all these cultures?

A It does, even though the more individualistic society is Is the lonelier it's likely to be. And also, uh, I argue that the neoliberal capitalist mindset, so the dog eat dog, uh, me first, self-interest first mindset is also inimicable, ultimately, to a world in which we feel connected to each other and feel part of a community. Um, and, and of course, The east as well as the west has been becoming more, uh, neoliberal and more individualistic. You even see this in pop song lyrics. So there were studies done with pop song lyrics, which show that in general, in the west, pop song lyrics from the 19 eighties to today have become increasingly individualistic with words like we, us, and I are supplanted by words like I, me, and my, and this is even going on in China, fascinatingly. Where you're seeing, um, a lag, but you're also seeing this trend, so more individualism, more loneliness, more neoliberalism, more loneliness, and, um, the West doesn't have the monopoly now and either.

AI assessment note: “It does, even though the more individualistic society is Is the lonelier”

Q How does it affect our role in democracy and maybe the trade-off between self-interest and community?

A So I think democracy is affected on a number of fronts by the growing loneliness crisis. Firstly, these micro exchanges, these interactions we have with people who are different to us, people of different socioeconomic groups, the kind of interactions we'd have day to day, the kind of interactions we'd have, of course, in shared public spaces, public parks, public libraries, we're having increasingly less of those. And those exchanges don't only make us feel less lonely, but I argue that there are also ways that we practice democracy. Even if you're in the supermarket wheeling your trolley rather than ordering your food online, even that interaction in a supermarket, it's forcing you to negotiate moving the trolley, pass by somebody, move around them. These are actually important skills, skills about enabling other people to get on with their lives, skills around respecting other people, skills around recognising other people. And so one of the reasons that democracy is being challenged in today's lonely century is because we're just doing less with other people, especially with people who are different to us, and so we're, we're not practicing also things like respecting others' ideas when they're different to us. Really important for inclusive democracy, of course, but the other reason why loneliness is threatening democracy is because of the link between Loneliness and popul…

AI assessment note: “democracy is affected on a number of fronts by the growing loneliness crisis”

Q What are some of the health implications on the individual? I noticed in your book, I think you said that it's like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day or a week or something, you know, the, the equivalent impact on your overall health. Talk to me about some of the other health implications and why that is.

A So we think of loneliness often as being something that affects our mental health only, and of course it does. Loneliness is linked to increased levels of anxiety, depression, stress, but what's less known is that it also really seriously affects our physical health. And why this is, is because when we're lonely, what happens is, um, essentially we go into fight or flight mode. Our blood pressure goes up, our levels of cortisol, our stress levels in our body go up, our cholesterol levels also go up, and it's a reaction which is a kind of evolutionary reaction which absolutely makes sense in that it's all these physiological features telling us get connected, go to a tribe, find a tribe, hunt with others, gather with others. It's all these solid evolutionary reasons. The trouble is When we don't act upon them, we remain in this state of high alert for a sustained period. It's like if you were driving your car, put it in first gear, that's the right thing to do initially, but stay in first gear for a long time. Well, that's terrible for your engine. And that's what protracted periods of loneliness are doing to us, and that's why loneliness, it turns out, is if you're lonely, 30% more likely to die prematurely than if you're not, and what's worrying is that even relatively short periods of loneliness, so even periods of loneliness under two years, Researchers have found can signif…

AI assessment note: “Our blood pressure goes up, our levels of cortisol, our stress levels in our body”

Q I want to come later to a little bit of the implications of loneliness on society with or without robots, but it seems like one of the major problems with loneliness is that there's so much shame in admitting that you're lonely. Why is that?

A There is a stigma. Um, it's, I'd say especially nowadays when Popularity, when the market for popularity has never been more visible, and again, social media clearly playing a role in that it's, you know, you scroll on your feeds, and everyone looks like they have more friends than you, and it's having more fun than you, and it's more popular than you, and so it's easy to believe that others are more popular than you, and there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling Like, no one wants to be your friend. So I think there is a stigma. I do think something, one of the positives that has come out of the, our shared COVID experience is that we are talking about loneliness much more today than we were in the past, and we should be, because the scale at which it's affecting us, um, collectively is, um, Immense. Rich, poor, young, old, male, female, are lonely people.

AI assessment note: “there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling Like, no one wants to be your friend.”

Q Is this a Western Eastern culture thing too? Like, does this transfer across all these cultures?

A It does, even though the more individualistic society is the lonelier it's likely to be. And also, uh, I argue that the neoliberal capitalist mindset, so the dog eat dog, uh, me first, self-interest first mindset is also inimicable ultimately to a world in which we feel Connected to each other and feel part of a community. Um, and, and of course, the East as well as the West has been becoming more, uh, neoliberal and more individualistic. You even see this in pop song lyrics. So there were studies done with pop song lyrics which show that in general in the West, pop song lyrics from the 19 eighties to today have become increasingly individualistic with words like we, us, and our, supplanted by words like I, me, and my. And this is even going on in China, fascinatingly, where you're seeing, um, a lag, but you're also seeing this trend. So more individualism, more loneliness, more neoliberalism, more loneliness, and, um, the West doesn't have the monopoly now on either.

AI assessment note: “It does, even though the more individualistic society is the lonelier it's likely to be.”

Q And I mean, we can anticipate some of the consequences. I just want to go back a little bit more to the individual and acknowledging loneliness. And I was talking to a friend about this and, you know, she said simple things like filling out a form made her feel lonely when it asks like, who's your emergency contact or who's your next of kin? What's your response to that?

A I think we have come to see the family as, as the all-important support network in our lives, and I would argue that we really need to redefine support networks for the 21st century so that friendship networks, you know, are viewed as meaningful as ones where we have blood ties, and that ideally we should be moving to, um, To, to a whole system whereby this, whereby we're able to invest in our friendships as much as in our blood relationships, and you know, wouldn't it be fantastic if at work people didn't just have mothers and fathers increasingly now getting Um, paternity and maternity pay when they have children, but also if people were allowed not only to take off paid time to care for an elderly relative, and some companies are pioneering this, um, but also if you were able to take time off to help out a friend in need, um, help out a neighbor, do something for your community. So I think part of our challenge and part of the reason your friend probably felt so lonely is because, um, She, you don't really think, oh, I'll put down my friend as a next of kin, or as my emergency contact, and yet, And yet, how great would it be if we could? But of course, in order to do that, it's not just about companies doing things, it's also about us prioritizing our friendships more ourselves, and it's hard to do that because we're, many of us are so busy, working all hours, so overstretch…

AI assessment note: “part of the reason your friend probably felt so lonely is because”

Q I want to come later to a little bit of the implications of loneliness on society with or without robots, but it seems like one of the major problems with loneliness is that there's so much shame in admitting that you're lonely. Why is that?

A There is a stigma. Um, it's, I'd say especially nowadays when popularity, when the market for popularity has never been more visible, and again, social media clearly playing a role in In that it's, you know, you scroll on your feeds, and everyone looks like they have more friends than you, and is having more fun than you, and is more popular than you. And so it's easy to believe that others are more popular than you, and there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling like no one wants to be your friend. So I think there is a stigma. I do think something, one of the positives that has come out of the, our shared COVID experience, is that we are talking about loneliness now. Much more today than we were in the past. And we should be because the scale at which it's affecting us, um, collectively is immense. Rich, poor, young, old, male, female are lonely people.

AI assessment note: “feels quite shameful about feeling like no one wants to be your friend”

Q and I mean, we can anticipate some of the consequences. I just want to go back a little bit more to the individual and acknowledging loneliness, and I was talking to a friend about this, and you know, she said simple things like filling out a form made her feel lonely when it asks, like, who's your emergency contact, or who's your next of kin? What's your response to that?

A I think we have come to see the family As, as the all-important support network in our lives, and I would argue that we really need to redefine support networks for the 21st century so that friendship networks, you know, are viewed as meaningful as ones where we have blood ties, and that ideally we should be moving to, um, to, to a whole system whereby this, whereby we're able to invest in our friendships As much as in our blood relationships. And, you know, wouldn't it be fantastic if at work people didn't just have Mothers and fathers increasingly now getting paternity and maternity pay when they have children, but also if people were allowed not only to take off paid time to care for an elderly relative, and some companies are pioneering this, um, but also if you were able to take time off to help out a friend in need. Um, help out a neighbor. Do something for your community. So I think part of our challenge, and part of the reason your friend probably felt so lonely is because she, you don't really think, oh, I'll put down my friend as a next of kin, or as my emergency contact, and yet And yet, how great would it be if we could? But of course, in order to do that, it's not just about companies doing things. It's also about us prioritizing our friendships more ourselves, and it's hard to do that because we're, many of us are so busy, working all hours, so overstretched, and …

AI assessment note: “part of the reason your friend probably felt so lonely is because she, you don't”

Q I want to come later to a little bit of the implications of loneliness on society with or without robots, but it seems like one of the major problems with loneliness is that there's so much shame in admitting that you're lonely. Why is that?

A There is a stigma. Um, it's, I'd say especially nowadays when Popularity, when the market for popularity has never been more visible, and again, social media clearly playing a role in that it's, you know, you scroll on your feeds, and everyone looks like they have more friends than you, and it's having more fun than you, and it's more popular than you, and so it's easy to believe that others are more popular than you, and there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling Like, no one wants to be your friend. So I think there is a stigma. I do think something, one of the positives that has come out of the, our shared COVID experience is that we are talking about loneliness much more today than we were in the past, and we should be, because the scale at which it's affecting us, um, collectively is, um, Immense. Rich, poor, young, old, male, female, are lonely people.

AI assessment note: “there's something that feels quite shameful about feeling Like, no one wants to be your friend”

Q Is there a particular way that we can use technology to better connect with people that we, we're not doing or exploring?

A Part of the challenge actually is the latency effect of kind of slow internet speeds, and as technology gets better, um, I think, I think some of the, the jerkiness of our Zoom calls and the, you know, which just kind of doesn't help us, our brains be able to synchronize with each other, which They need to do in order to feel empathetic and connected. So some of it is to do with just really something as simple as our internet connection speed. But, but I think the way that, um, the way that these, the way our screens are currently designed, and if there are people listening who are in this space, maybe you can fix this. We don't look at each other when we're on Zoom, typically. Right. You know, our eye lines aren't looking at each other because of the way it's set up, and in fact, all too often we're distracted by the pictures of ourselves on our screen, turning our interaction as a kind of quasi-performative one in which we're actor, stroke, participants all at once, and so, so I think there are some ways maybe that, that, that technology could be tweaked, and, and I think also You know, when we have choices in a world in which, um, our choice of how we interact has been seriously constrained over, um, in recent times, but where we have choices, I think it's also about remembering, do choose to meet someone face to face if you, if you can, and if it's in a socially distanced w…

AI assessment note: “I think there are some ways maybe that, that, that technology could be tweaked”

Q What are the signs as a parent that your, your teen or your child might be feeling lonely? And then what are the steps that you can do to help them?

A So it's important, firstly, to recognize that there's a really good chance that your child is feeling lonely, because we know that the numbers are, you know, over 60% of young people are feeling lonely pretty much all of the time. We also know that periods of lockdown and isolation have exacerbated this, particularly amongst the young. Think about their social media usage. Um, this is one of the interesting insights that a head teacher Brought to my attention. He said, look, it wasn't that children weren't excluded in the past. They were, but the difference is now that whereas in the past, an adult in a child's life could typically see this was going on. So you would see your child wasn't being invited out with others. So a teacher would see a child not being asked to sit with others at school today because so much of their social lives is happening on their phones, on their screens. The adult in their lives Often isn't aware that they're not being invited to things and being excluded. So, you know, be aware that this might be going on, um, and they're all terrible, terribly poignant stories of From teenagers who I interviewed, one Peter, a fourteen-year-old boy, told me about how he would post, um, on Instagram, and then wait, wait, wait, hoping for somebody to like his post, and when they didn't, asking himself, what am I doing wrong, and saying how invisible he felt, or Clau…

AI assessment note: “today because so much of their social lives is happening on their phones”

Q You can also be lonely in a marriage or in a relationship. What's the difference between being alone and sort of feeling alone?

A That's a great question, and you're absolutely right. There's probably nothing more lonely than being in a bad relationship or, or a bad marriage. Um, being lonely Has a sense of powerlessness attached to it. It's a sense, uh, you lack agency. It's about wanting to feel connected. Typically we think of loneliness as being wanting to feel connected to friends and family, but I actually broaden it to include also feeling, wanting to feel connected to your government, wanting to feel connected to your employer. So loneliness for me is about feeling Disconnected in a much more existential state about feeling that you're not cared for, that you're not supported, whether it is by those closest to you, but also whether it's by your government or your workplace.

AI assessment note: “loneliness for me is about feeling Disconnected in a much more existential state”