The Exchanges

Q I think that's really insightful, and poker gives you sort of like the added component of you have something at stake, right? Didn't Emmanuel Kant say something about the role of betting in his critique of pure reason?

A Yes, he did. He did, and I was so excited when I found that section of critique of pure reason and was able to, to apply it to poker. Kant says that Betting actually forms an integral part to improving your decision process and improving your level of certainty in something, because people can say all sorts of stuff and just make all sorts of pronouncements if they're not held accountable for it. However, if you're forced to put a monetary value on your opinion, on how certain you are of something you're saying, on how certain you are about You know, if you're a doctor, how certain you are about your diagnosis, if you have to bet on it, all of a sudden it forces you to stop for a second and think, okay, am I really this sure? How much do I value it? And Kant even proposes a thought experiment to start upping the values. You know, would I, would I say this and stand by it for 10 dollars? Yeah, sure. What about for a hundred? Okay, yeah, that seemed reasonable. A thousand? Okay, well, maybe I need to look through some of my assumptions. Give me a second. A million? Okay, okay, right. I'm not, I'm not that sure anymore. I really need to figure it out. Or, you know, a million? Yes, I will bet even a million. I'll bet everything because that is how certain I am that I'm right. It really forces you to take a step back and reflect because all of a sudden you have something very, very …

AI assessment note: “Yes, he did. He did, and I was so excited when I found that section”

Q many thoughts there. Um, you know, people have said that Buffett's lost it, too, and every time, you know, that, that popular sort of sentiment rears its head, he tends to Show them just how wrong they are. You know, and he's done it consistently, and there's a lot in that. Um, what, what was Eric's, like, lesson plan for you? Like, how did this, how did this manifest itself?

A He didn't have one, um, because he has never really taught anyone. He didn't even know kind of how to begin, and he just said, well, you know, I'm really good friends with this guy, Dan Harrington, um, and he wrote books that I think are very good, so maybe you want to read those, and he, I'm not sure, maybe they're going to be too advanced for you, but, you know, maybe start there, and so he kind of gave me a little reading list, starting with Dan Harrington's books, and said, okay, you know, Whenever you have a question, jot it down, um, and we'll talk about it, and we'll just take it from there and kind of see what happens. So I read, um, I read Harrington on Hold'em, the first two volumes, which are the two relevant volumes, and it took me a long time. I mean, they were hard, and every time I realized, okay, I don't even have this basic knowledge, I'd go online. It's, it's a great time to learn anything, Any new skill these days because everything is online or not everything, but a lot of things are online. So I was able to get kind of the basics of the game. You know, how do I, how do I play? You know, how does it work? What are the, what are the different elements? So I was able to get that from, from online videos. You know, Eric's not someone who sits me down and says, okay, you're going to be dealt two cards. Those are called your whole cards. We never had lessons like…

AI assessment note: “He didn't have one, um, because he has never really taught anyone.”

Q I like the idea of the Paris review. I'm going to have to go through that now. I've been meaning to do that for a while. You just reminded me, how do you, when you pick up a book, like, are you a highlighter? Do you underline? Like, how do you take those things that you're reading and distill them into something that's usable for you?

A So it depends. If it's nonfiction, um, I'm going to be underlining and writing in the margins, so all of my nonfiction books are written in, um, for the most part. I have some really beautiful hardcover editions that I would never in a million years write in, so I have, you know, I definitely have books that I won't touch. Um, fiction, I don't write in the first time I read it. If I then go back to it, like my, I have a version of Sherlock Holmes that's pristine, Because I wanted this beautiful Sherlock Holmes box set, but then I have a version of Sherlock Holmes that is just completely, you know, defaced. I've written over every single chapter because I was really analyzing those stories and really trying to take everything from it. And I have, so for some of my favorite books, so one of my favorite poets is W.H. Auden, and I've read all of his poetry many times, and I actually have two poems Copies of his collected poems. Um, one that's just a really nice hardcover that I don't write in, and then I have a softcover where I've underlined and written. So I have kind of both. One that's nice when I just want to read and have a very pretty, pristine reading experience, and one that I've really engaged in. And it's actually really interesting to me. I like writing in books because it doesn't just help you Process things and make sure that you're going through them in a thoughtful …

AI assessment note: “If it's nonfiction, um, I'm going to be underlining and writing in the margins”

Q Um, but before we get there, we have to, how did you pick Eric as your mentor before he even knew you? I mean, you picked him before he even knew who you were. And then how did you convince him one of the best poker players in the world who's never taught anybody or had any students ever that you were the one That he was going to teach.

A So, um, this, there's a few different elements here, including luck. Um, so first when I decided that I was going to undertake this project, I thought, you know, I need a mentor. I need a coach. I need someone who's really good to teach me because I know a lot about learning. I've written a lot about learning, and I know that one of the best ways to learn, especially if you want to get very good at something quickly, Is to be taught by someone who's very good at what they do. And I know how important mentorship is. I know how important those relationships are. So, so I thought, okay, I need someone. How in the world am I going to find someone given that I don't know anything about poker and I don't really know this world. So I started watching, there's, there's a lot of poker content online. So my first kind of Stop was to look at rankings of players and to be like, okay, these are the people who are considered great. Um, and a lot of different names came up. You know, Eric was one of them, but you also have people like Phil Ivey and Daniel Negreanu and Phil Helmuth and Doyle Brunson and just on and on and on people have arguments for why different players are the best. And Eric actually, even in those statistics stood out to me. Because he started playing in the eighties. And if you look at how he's done, he was actually the only player I could find who's still making final ta…

AI assessment note: “Eric actually, even in those statistics stood out to me.”

Q Peter, Peter Bevelin wrote a book on Sherlock Holmes to a few lessons from Sherlock Holmes, which I thought was really good as well. I think there's a lot that we can take away from Sherlock. You said in poker in your book that delusion is punished. Can you walk me through that?

A Absolutely. So, poker is A wonderful teaching tool because you have immediate feedback in the sense of, you know, do you win or do you lose? Now you need to be careful because as I said before, you need to learn to separate thought process from outcome. So sometimes you make the right decision, but you still lose. But if you, if you have that caveat, then you do kind of start seeing right away what The outcomes of your actions are and whether you're actually learning, whether you're playing correctly, because over time you'll either be losing money or winning money. If you are deluded and you think you're better than you actually are and you play at, you know, a higher level than you should be playing, poker is going to punish you because it's going to take away all of your money and you'll be broke. And sure.

AI assessment note: “If you are deluded and you think you're better... poker is going to punish you”

Q I want to double click on two things you said there. First, the thought process. Like, how do we know we have a good thought process? Especially if you're a novice in it, do you need a mentor or a coach, or can you like ascertain that for yourself? And then how did you apply that to life? Like outside of that?

A Well, I, I, yeah, um, I do think you need someone to tell you if you're a complete novice. I mean, I would have had no way of knowing what I should be paying attention to, what I should be thinking through, what I should be doing if I didn't have Eric to direct me. I mean, I could have gotten some level of that from online tutorials, online videos, but it just would not have been the same. The fact that it was personalized, the fact that it was directed at me, at how I was playing, at how I was thinking, and that it was kind of this direct feedback, I think that was crucial, um, in enabling me to improve as rapidly as I did, and to actually appreciate what was going on. So sure, you can get some of those tools elsewhere, but I do think it's very important to have someone else, and I actually think this is true of everything, not just poker. I mean, the way that I became a better psychologist is because I had great mentors who were able to talk me through my thought process along the way. The way I improved as a writer was obviously doing it myself, and you have to, with all of these things, nothing will supplement, or nothing will completely Override the need to just do it and do it and do it and practice and kind of get better that way, but I also had amazing writing mentors. I had people who really helped me learn how do I think through pieces? How do I think through writing?…

AI assessment note: “I do think you need someone to tell you if you're a complete novice.”

Q How do, like, if you factor in a continuum between rational and emotional, how does that factor into your thought process and how you're thinking about something?

A I think that we are all necessarily emotional if we're human. I mean, even Sherlock Holmes was someone who experienced emotions, even though people think of him as this kind of cold, almost computer-like person. What he did, and this is, it's interesting, there are actually a lot of ways that writing about Sherlock Holmes helped me become a better poker player, because it's, it's a lot of things, um, a lot of things overlap there. And this rational, emotional thing is one of them. So what Sherlock Holmes does is he acknowledges his emotions, he recognizes that they exist, and then he dismisses them if they're irrelevant to the decision. So he says, you know, sure, you know, I feel sympathy for this woman. Sure, I, I see that she's, you know, a really good person, but now I'm going to dismiss all of that because it's irrelevant to the decision. So I feel the emotion, I experience it, and then I put it away. And Do not use it when I'm coming to a decision because it's not relevant. In poker, there's this idea called tilt, which Eric introduced me to and which is just, it became one of my favorite words in the world. I use it all the time now. Another way that poker has filtered its way into my life is that now I say that I'm tilted and things put me on tilt and that something is tilting all the time without even thinking about it because it's such a, such a convenient word. What …

AI assessment note: “I feel the emotion, I experience it, and then I put it away.”

Q How do, like, if you factor in a continuum between rational and emotional, how does that factor into your thought process and how you're thinking about something?

A I think that we are all necessarily emotional if we're human. I mean, even Sherlock Holmes was someone who experienced emotions, even though people think of him as this kind of cold, almost computer-like person. What he did, and this is, it's interesting, there are actually a lot of ways that writing about Sherlock Holmes helped me Become a better poker player because it's, it's a lot of things, um, a lot of things overlap there, and this rational, emotional thing is one of them. So what Sherlock Holmes does is he acknowledges his emotions, he recognizes that they exist, and then he dismisses them if they're irrelevant to the decision. So he says, you know, sure, you know, I feel sympathy for this woman. Sure, I, I see that she's, you know, a really good person, but now I'm going to dismiss all of that because it's irrelevant to the decision. So I feel the emotion, I experience it, and then I put it away and do not use it when I'm coming to a decision because it's not relevant. In poker, there's this idea called tilt, which Eric introduced me to and which is just, it became one of my favorite words in the world. I use it all the time now. Another way that poker has filtered its way into my life is that now I say that I'm tilted and things put me on tilt and And that something is tilting all the time without even thinking about it. Cause it's such a, such a convenient word. What…

AI assessment note: “I feel the emotion, I experience it, and then I put it away”

Q I want to double click on two things you said there. First, the thought process. Like, how do we know we have a good thought process? Especially if you're a novice in it. Do you need a mentor or a coach, or can you, like, ascertain that for yourself? And then how did you apply that to life? Like, outside of that?

A Well, I, I, yeah, um, I do think you need someone to tell you if you're a complete novice. I mean, I would have had no way of knowing what I should be paying attention to, what I should be thinking through, What I should be doing if I didn't have Eric to direct me. I mean, I could have gotten some level of that from online tutorials, online videos, but it just would not have been the same. The fact that it was personalized, the fact that it was directed at me, at how I was playing, at how I was thinking, and that it was kind of this direct feedback. I think that was crucial, um, in enabling me to improve as rapidly as I did, and to actually Appreciate what was going on. So sure, you can get some of those tools elsewhere, but I do think it's very important to have someone else, and I actually think this is true of everything, not just poker. I mean, the way that I became a better psychologist is because I had great mentors who were able to talk me through my thought process along the way. The way I improved as a writer was obviously doing it myself, and you have to, with all of these things, nothing will supplement, or nothing will completely Override the need to just do it and do it and do it, um, and practice and kind of get better that way, but I also had amazing writing mentors. I had people who really helped me learn how do I think through pieces? How do I think through wri…

AI assessment note: “I do think you need someone to tell you if you're a complete novice.”

Q What does that mean? You're an impact checker.

A Yeah. So, so I'm someone who is a, a fairly opinionated person, and I'm also prone to exaggeration, especially when I speak, and it's just kind of for a rhetorical effect, and I never really, I've never really thought about it. It's just something that I do, but all of a sudden I actually started Saying, okay, well, if this isn't accurate, maybe I shouldn't say it, and maybe I should verify the accuracy before saying it. You know, let me start fact-checking myself a little bit, and if I'm offering an opinion, you know, there was a really, really funny thing that happened when I was pretty, pretty young, maybe 15 years old or so. Um, my mom and I were Taking a walk, and I grew up in the Boston suburbs, and we were in the city, um, visiting, and walking around, and we got a little bit lost, and I just so confidently said I knew where to go, and really thought I did, and just got us further and further lost, and at some point, this was obviously before smartphones, this was before everyone had a GPS on them, all of a sudden we just, we were deep in Chinatown, and had no idea where we were, or how to get anywhere, And my mom had actually kind of known where we were before, but I was so confident that she just deferred to me. And, and I, I've done things like that a few times, not a few, a number of times in my life in the past, where I think I know something, and so I just confiden…

AI assessment note: “let me start fact-checking myself a little bit, and if I'm offering an opinion”

Q What information do you find most helpful about a situation or decision when you're reflecting?

A It depends. But I think In general, I try to think about the emotional elements. So how am I feeling? Kind of what you and I were talking about earlier to try to deconstruct why I'm feeling a certain way. But also kind of what were the, what are the factors of the situation? Who are the people? You know, what do I know about these people? Is there something that's actually affecting me that I didn't realize because of the people involved? Um, what are the stakes? Kind of what am I even doing? What do I hope to accomplish? It's so funny how often you lose sight of what your actual goal is because you have so many intermediate goals, and you forget what you're actually trying to do. And then you get, you know, caught up in petty arguments or side things and kind of these emotional little dramas where if you take a step back to reflect, you're like, wait, this is the big picture. This is where I'm getting to. This is what I want to do. All of this stuff is actually not important. So yeah, I can compromise here, even though I didn't think I could compromise here, just to put everything in perspective. I think that that's actually one of the most important things that The reflection process can teach you is to, to force you to actually gain perspective, and to imagine that the situation is like a puzzle, and there are all these different puzzle pieces, and you can get so wrapped up …

AI assessment note: “I try to think about the emotional elements. So how am I feeling?”

Q I think that's really deep and insightful. I appreciate that. Um, talk to me about reflecting how to, how, what have you learned about reflecting better?

A I've learned just how important it is to, to really take, take kind of a pause from life, to take a pause from everything that's going on, and to make that kind of a regular part of your day. Um, what I mean by that is that, you know, I'm always doing something. I always have a million projects going on at once. I love being busy, and you know, I'm, I'm someone who's just Never bored. There's always something to do. And I've written before about the importance of, you know, Mindfulness, the importance of reflection, but even though I do yoga every day and have been doing that for over a decade and will meditate a little in the morning, um, it was always, I actually didn't put two and two together, and I didn't use those techniques when it came to thinking through my own thought process, reflecting about myself, reflecting about what was going on. Um, I Never kept, you know, I would tell people, oh, you know, to make better decisions, you should, you know, you should write things down, you should do this, you should have kind of this little decision journal so that you can then think back and look back and see what you were actually thinking so that you're not tied to the outcome, and all of these things that I would suggest to other people, but I didn't do any of them myself because I didn't think I needed them, and so what I learned is just the importance of Taking moments whe…

AI assessment note: “what I learned is just the importance of Taking moments where you're not doing anything.”