The Exchanges

Q There's four things I want to follow up on there and in no particular order. Uh, one of the things that you said was money, You were making a lot of money, but you were miserable. Can you go deeper on that?

A Yeah. Um, you know, there's been studies that have shown that once you make over, I got, geez, I think it used to be 85,000, you know, that there's no sort of increase in happiness after that. The number's got to be higher now with inflation. I think that study came out six or seven years ago at least, but I was making over that. And I, I first year out of school and, and I didn't realize the extent to which I was sort of chasing some idea of success that I hadn't really spent a lot of time actually thinking about. Uh, and part of that was I thought that that track was the quickest route to financial security, to lifelong financial security. And like, you know, many of my colleagues, I thought to myself, well, I just need to do this for five to seven years. Go the normal track. And, you know, if I'm smart, if I don't squander at all, uh, I will have enough money to be set for quite a while, you know, and then I can figure out the next thing that I want to do. Um, but everybody went in that way, but then I saw guys that had been in for 10 or 15 years that, um, seemed like they never had enough. It was never enough. And I didn't really want to be like that. I, I, I sort of realized that it's kind of a slippery slope. Like, when is enough enough? And this is way before I had ever heard the word mimetic desire, which is what my book's about. So I just intuitively, like sort of unde…

AI assessment note: “I didn't realize the extent to which I was sort of chasing some idea of success”

Q you said that was really interesting to me, and I think a lot of people had the same experience, but I'm curious as to what led to your experience and what lessons or conclusions you've taken from it is that during COVID you got closer to some people and other people who you might've thought you were going to get closer to, you got farther away from. Why is that?

A I don't know if I know the answer. I've thought a lot about it. I think one of the big things is open and honest communication, right? The people that I feel like I can communicate with openly and honestly are the ones that I feel really comfortable investing in, in those relationships. And I mean, I can't imagine, I can't think of another more consequential time to have open and honest conversations. Um, little things like getting together, um, at our house or at another person's house, um, to barbecue in the backyard. It's really a act of courtesy. To clearly define, um, boundaries and rules, right? Like, if I'm coming into your house, um, and think of this as a metaphor for a lot of things in life, okay, even a business. If I'm a guest in your house, it actually causes me a lot less anxiety to, like, know where we stand, what you want to do, how you think about this, and, you know, we should have had those conversations way before I showed up at the front door.

AI assessment note: “The people that I feel like I can communicate with openly and honestly”

Q years, then I'm going to get out, going to make some money, going to get some skills, then I'm going to go do what I really want to do. It's like you're, you're borrowing. Time almost from yourself. Uh, but was there a moment that that changed for you? Was there something that crystallized that I just have to leave or was it this slow sort of like building pressure?

A It was both. It was a slow building pressure. Um, and, and sometimes I think with that slow building pressure, if you don't recognize it, and if you don't do anything about it, can actually lead to some sort of a tipping point that stops feeling like pressure and just sort of makes you dead inside. Like you almost forget the pressure, if that makes sense. Like we sort of have a window of opportunity to recognize that, and that internal pressure and do something about it. Or else it just sort of, at some point it becomes too late, almost like a person with an addiction. So the pressure was building, and I realized that I had sort of a window of, um, I don't know, call it existential or spiritual freedom with which I could still do something, and I didn't want to lose the freedom. I think there are always circumstances that, that are involved too, and oftentimes with decision making, the circumstances, the, the soil In which decisions are made is a really critical and overlooked factor. So yes, I had Sean calling me and email, emailing me and sort of kicking me in the ass. Like, Hey, now's the time. If we don't do this, somebody else will. But I think what really did it for me was a moment of, of clarity in my process of discernment. So, you know, I, I think that it's never good to make a serious, big life-changing decision when we're in a period of desolation or like deep Deep a…

AI assessment note: “It was both. It was a slow building pressure.”

Q Is it fair to say with Kanye and the clothing line that, you know, he's not selling clothes, he's selling a lifestyle. And I want to be like Kanye, even just a small part of Kanye. So I'm going to mimic him. Or is there, is it deeper than that? And I don't see it.

A He's modeling a lifestyle, but I think he's modeling even more than a lifestyle. He's modeling a desire. And here's an, here's an easy way to think about that. Kanye is more than a role model. So a role model just models a role. They could model a lifestyle or a certain kind of behavior. But a role model is different than a model of desire to, um, there, there, I can't think of a politician off the top of my head that is a role model for me because I don't desire the role to be a politician. So there's no, they're not modeling a role to me period, but they could be modeling a desire. And the way that Kanye, I think, models a desire is this. If he totally changed his lifestyle, if he, if he switched and started modeling a completely different kind of lifestyle, different fashion, um, different beliefs, um, move to a different country and started making country music. There would be, he would, people would follow him there. So, so it's not, it's, so it goes beyond the lifestyle because he himself is the model of desire, and people desire the desire. So when Kanye's desire changes, The desires of those who look to him seriously as a model also change. So for me, that goes a little bit deeper than, than, than the lifestyle to the person. Because long after Kanye is gone, um, there could be somebody else that comes along that models that particular kind of lifestyle as well or bette…

AI assessment note: “He's modeling a lifestyle, but I think he's modeling even more than a lifestyle.”

Q per se is it's not people you know now, it's people you have no exposure to in the real world. You don't know what their character's like. You don't know how ethical they are. So do you think that that affects who we are and our identity of ourself too? Like does, and maybe, maybe the, the real underlying question is does our thinking and identity also become somewhat emetic?

A Identity is absolutely mimetic. Um, we're relational creatures, um, highly relational, and our identity is really formed in and through relationships. Uh, I don't form my identity on my own. My identity can really only be understood in relationship to the family that I came from, the friends that I have, the, you know, my, my marriage to my wife, the relationships that I have. So I, I believe that identity itself is a highly relational thing that can only be understood that way. And given that, given that we're social, and that, that we're relational, and that mimesis is rampant, of course mimesis and mimetic desire plays into our very identity. I, I, here's an important, I think, distinction to make. There are really two major types of models of desire in the world, and this is, comes from Rene Girard himself. He says that we have external models of desire, and External models of desire are those that are outside of our world that we have no possibility of coming into contact with, whether because they live on the other side of the world, at least in an age before social media, or because they're historical figures, or they just live in a different sphere. They're external to our world. And that means that there's no possibility of us encountering them or competing with them. The other kind of model is an internal model of desire. And an internal model is in, inside of our wor…

AI assessment note: “Identity is absolutely mimetic. Um, we're relational creatures”

Q You know, people are on vacations all the time. They're flying around the world. They're taking pictures in front of cars that aren't there. So you don't even know it. You have access to everybody who has more resources than you do. And they're always living this lifestyle that like, to your point, there's a huge gap between where you're at and what you're seeing. How does that affect us?

A I asked my students to name their top five models of desire. The top five people that are influencing them, and I really encourage them to be honest, and I'll get answers like this particular Instagram or TikTok influencer in Asia. I live in Washington, D.C. Think about that. I mean, yes, my dad, if I asked my dad what his top five models of desire were, um, when he was their age, they'd all be people that lived in his hometown. You know, they'd be people that he went to high school with that, you know, maybe played on the varsity team when he, when he didn't quite yet. Um, they'd all be very familiar people. So what social media has done from a psychological perspective has taken The desires from around the world, which people are modeling to other people in very curated ways, by the way, uh, it's hard to know whether they even want some of the things that they're modeling or whether they're just getting paid to do that. Um, and you know, we know through anecdotal evidence that some of the people modeling lifestyles, Uh, like van life are actually really miserable and depressed doing that. Um, but they don't look like it right there. So they're modeling the desire that may not be the one that they actually have. It's taken the desires from around the world and essentially shrunken them down and put them onto the head of a pin, which we're all standing on. If we're on social me…

AI assessment note: “we have billions of, of, of models of desire rather than a handful.”

Q So maybe a better way to word this question is how would you teach somebody to identify these mediators of desire?

A You need to really embed yourself, um, in In a relationship or in an organization, um, and cut through the bullshit because the bullshit is always going to obscure the power of the mediator. Um, media, I use the word mediator and model interchangeably. Um, you have to cut through it. Um, and that means, you know, getting people when they're vulnerable, hearing, hearing them explain their motivations for, for doing something or pursuing some path, and then hearing all of the things that they didn't say. People are, people are usually very protective of their sort of deeper motivations and deeper desires, um, and sort of gloss over these things. Um, but there are sort of, I think, ways to, ways to draw those things out. I mean, it comes from trust, right? When people feel like they're in a context of a trusting relationship, they'll say all kinds of things, right? It's like speaking to a therapist. I think there are ways to recreate that within organizational environments where, you know, people, where there's confidentiality, where there's trust, um, anonymity maybe, um, where people can begin to, to tell the truth, um, about, um, You know, how certain people, um, have a nonlinear effect on, on the culture and in the dynamics of the organization, right? So this is a very nonlinear domain. People are not all the same. Obviously, like a, a big figure, um, you know, a, a CEO with a…

AI assessment note: “You need to really embed yourself, um, in In a relationship or in an organization”

Q So the idea was totally useful, but we dismiss it because it's not a hundred percent accurate. So we just ignore it. Well, uh, you know, Homer, he's not accurate. So, uh, he's probably not useful and it should be the other way around, right? The true test of an idea is, is this useful? And under what circumstances is it useful? And the more circumstances, the better.

A Yes. And that's, this is why people don't understand mythology. Um, cause there are truths in mythology, even if it didn't happen, right? These are, these are stories that humans have told to reflect some deep fundamental truths of human nature. And sure, some God didn't fall out of the sky and go chase somebody down. Um, but there's some truths there. It's like Ken Cussie said, it's true, even if it didn't happen, right? He's describing some things, right? There are stories that I could tell. It's like, well, That's true, even if it didn't happen, because it says something that's actually, like, really true about this person. And it opens up our world. It opens up our minds when we start to view everything as having the ability of revealing some truth to me, even if it's fiction. And I go into philosophers that I don't, I don't necessarily agree with most of the things that they say. I have a lot of qualms with Heidegger. If anybody, you know, is, is listening like is likes philosophy, but I, I go into him with an openness to, to receiving some truths and their truths, right? There are a lot of them. And that's just been a mindset shift for me. Um, approaching everything is an opportunity to learn. So Gerard did this and what he saw reflected first in the, in the literature, um, and then all over in the world around him and in history, um, In politics and social life is mimeti…

AI assessment note: “Yes. And that's, this is why people don't understand mythology.”

Q to come in. So if we think of humans as biologically instinctive or all animals have this biological instinct towards hierarchy, the loss of that hierarchy Lots of our, our position in that. So whether we're, we're picking our own hierarchy or choosing one, or if it's like a work structure, like a demotion would be felt a lot more than a promotion. How do you think that impacts us?

A Yeah, it's extremely difficult. And I would argue that the chef, Sebastian Bra, who is the chef owner of a restaurant called Le Souquet in France. He's this guy that opted out. I would say that It was easier for him to opt out than it is for most of us to opt out of, um, unhealthy systems of desire that we might be caught in. And I think it was easier for him, actually. I, I don't think that his, he didn't have the loss version that we had because he'd already achieved the three stars. You know, in other words, it's like, Hey, I did this thing. I achieved what I said I was going to reach achieve. I've maintained my three stars for 10 years. Um, now I can opt out. He got a ton of positive PR for it. That's another story. Um, and it actually benefited him. You know, so he, it may not be the best use case because he didn't lose much business. Um, there wasn't a lot of pain or sacrifices. There was uncertainty associated with it. I don't think he knew what was going to happen, but it turned out that he was able to laugh about it. He didn't have the Michelin stars for that year. And the joke was kind of on him because Michelin came back the following year and said, oh, by the way, we decided to It's not up to you, and we're going to put you back in the Michelin guide, and now you have two stars instead of three.

AI assessment note: “I don't think that his, he didn't have the loss version that we had”

Q So, so based on that, then does your, your intuition around trust come from the fact that you've been let down and also had high trust situations? Like you've had this high variability of people in the past so that you're better able to recognize it or has everything in your background, like your life just been, uh, mostly trustworthy and.

A No, I've had the full spectrum, um, you know, to the point where, um, I, I often say nothing surprises me anymore. Um, you know, I don't, I'm not a skeptic or a cynic. I'm one of the, I'm, I'm the kind of person that waits until, you know, the deal is closed before I, before I celebrate. Um, partly because I've celebrated early. Um, and you know, and I've had, right. So I've learned that through experience and, um, I've had the full gamut. I mean, I've had, I've been very lucky, right. I've had people in my life that I've worked with and been partners with for well over a decade now, where there's just this really high degree of trust. And then I've had other situations where, um, at least at an earlier point in my life, um, I would have trusted somebody completely and then very unexpectedly they, they did something that, that was extremely surprising. So with that comes a certain sobriety, um, about human nature. You know, I think like a lot of my work, um, has been just delving deep into human nature. It's sort of a, it's a really big shortcut for people because there are certain things that just don't change. Um, you know, seeing the full range of possibilities of what people are capable of, um, how people are affected, how people change. Um, you know, I've learned more about that through, through, you know, literature, frankly, than I have from, from most business books. An…

AI assessment note: “No, I've had the full spectrum”

Q Talk to me a little bit more about those thick, uh, you call them thick desires, but let's sort of like think of them as enduring human desires. What are we born with desiring, uh, in a sense, like what's in our nature versus like what's created after that from culture, our environment and everything else?

A We have, um, a desire for deep human relationships to, to, to know and to be known by others is, is fundamental. And I'm, and I'm speaking of the things that come after our hardwired biological needs, right? I mean, we're born thirsty and hungry and stuff like that right away. So, but, but after that, um, you know, this desire that every child has, right, to be, to be known, right? Right. To be known and loved by their parents and, and, and to develop healthy relationships with, with other people and, and deep friendships. Right. Um, certainly, certainly a, a, a thick desire that I think everybody has. Right. You know, classic virtues. Um, I think there's a reason why human beings for thousands of years have, you know, identified basic virtues as desirable. Right. As things that contribute to human happiness. Right. Aristotle's kind of the, the, what is happiness? It's to lead the good life. And what is the good life? Um, you know, it's to achieve excellence in these areas and, you know, various virtues to, to develop. Right. Which is, I guess if I come from a place where human nature is not an unknowable X, right? If human nature is an unknowable X, then, you know, this might not make a lot of sense, but if, if human nature is, is, is knowable and, you know, we can agree that it's, it's better to be a temperate person than to not be a temperate person, right? Like a person tha…

AI assessment note: “We have, um, a desire for deep human relationships to, to, to know”

Q part of that is probably relates to this mimetic desire that we have For other things, uh, and goals that are on our own. And I, I think part of it is also we have a biological sort of instinct towards hierarchy. And part of that hierarchy is status symbols, whether it's, it's sort of mates or goods in terms of shoes or cars. How do you think about that?

A I don't think that happiness comes primarily from being happy with what we have. Um, But being happy with who we are. I know people that are very, for the most part, are happy with what they have, but not happy with who they are. And I think the two things go hand in hand. If, if we're saying happy with what you have in the sense that you don't need more and you're not, you're not constantly dissatisfied with what you have. Um, whether it's, um, material things or with a spouse, um, you, you, you, you're just content with what you have, and you learn to want what you have in a deeper way. That's a really important thing. I think learning to want what you have. Is, is, is one way to say it. Um, I think the, the, the greatest cause of unhappiness, um, that I've seen are people that just simply do not want to be who they are. What was the, the second part of your question was the last part, dominance hierarchies. Animals have a relatively stable dominance hierarchy. For the most part, once it's established, it's just there. Um, I just went to the, the Smithsonian zoo in DC and we saw the, um, lowland gorillas and there's like the silverback. There's like, um, three of, of, of the other sort of like sub adult males, I forget their name. And then there's the females and it just doesn't change. Right. I mean, like once that troop is established, it's just there. And in most of the an…

AI assessment note: “What was the, the second part of your question was the last part, dominance hierarchies.”

Q So, so I first came across Rene Girard's ideas when I was learning, uh, more about Peter Thiel. And once you see Girard's core idea, you can't really unsee it. So who is Rene Girard and what is Mimetic Desire?

A Rene Girard was a French academic who moved to the U.S. shortly after World War II, uh, started out at Indiana University, and his PhD, um, was essentially in history, and moved around in the U.S., and, um, he seems like a guy who was struggling with his vocation. Um, uh, he, like, he, he wasn't entirely happy just teaching in this narrow domain. So he began to really branch out and he's really an autodidact. I mean, he started to read everything way outside of his area of expertise, uh, anthropology. Uh, he read sacred scriptures. Uh, he read sociology and literature and It was in teaching, sort of getting dragged in, roped in to teaching a class on European literature, that he had his first really big insight into something that had been overlooked about human nature for a very long time. And He came to this insight through reading Shakespeare, through reading a lot of the French classical, um, literature, uh, and, and not, not only French, he read a lot of Russian literature, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky. Um, and he realized that he saw this reflected in the literature and that's important to note, right? Because literature fiction even is written by people and these people leave clues about human nature embedded in the literature, even if it's fiction. So reading fiction and mining it for truths about human nature is what Gerard did. And I think it's because he viewed fiction that w…

AI assessment note: “Rene Girard was a French academic who moved to the U.S. shortly after World War II”

Q You had a conversation with Tony Shay and asked him if he was ever going to get married. And he basically asked you if you could prove to him that he would be happier if he got married. Can you walk me through that conversation and why it's haunted you for years?

A Tony and I became pretty good friends, um, back in 2007, eight, nine. And this is right around the time he was starting his downtown project in downtown Vegas. So I, I'd relocated, um, my company to Vegas. He was right down the street from me. Zappos is right down the street from my headquarters. And we were spending a lot of time together and we were downtown Vegas right off of Fremont street and a very popular little Uh, underground bar there called the downtown and late at night and having a conversation about life. And I think this is around the time when I had begun to sort of, um, have sort of a shift in my thinking. I'd sort of, I've, I'd taken a spiritual turn in my life. And I think Tony was really intrigued by that. Cause I, I mean, in my mind, he was somebody that was really searching for, for something he couldn't find.

AI assessment note: “late at night and having a conversation about life.”