The Exchanges

Q And then how, how did you explore that interest?

A Yeah. So then I would do more reading of different books at that time. There weren't a lot. And that's one of the amazing things today that a lot of these wisdom texts are just in the last really 20 years have become available. Um, and I've continued to kind of update my reading, but then I did, um, you know, some sitting, I studied with a guy, a Zen teacher, Philip Kaplu, Who wrote the Three Pillars of Zen, then I did some TM, and then I kind of started just mixing the principles of meditation with my own consciousness, with psychology, with neuroscience, with, so I never was like a true believer or going into the religious part of it, but I felt like from the beginning it was this natural Part of human experience that was a potential. And so I would, you know, try to find anybody talking about it. You know, someone like Abraham Maslow was talking about peak experiences and, you know, different, oh, that's cool. That's, that's, that's similar, but different. Then I'd always do this kind of, well, that's similar. They've got that, but they're, how do they get from here to there? And so it's kind of a, Almost like this scientific approach or curiosity, but always like then learning, how do you do it? How do you do that? And so I, you know, just continued, um, through, through college and then in graduate school, I actually went and studied, uh, psychology and spirituality and di…

AI assessment note: “I would do more reading of different books at that time... studied with a guy”

Q And so when you're in a flow state, is that sort of effortless mindfulness?

A When they talk about flow state, I distinguish two kinds of flow state. One's an absorbed flow state where you're so interested in an activity and you're, uh, focused one pointed attention and you're kind of go into it and then time you look up and an hour's gone by. So you kind of enter that world and everything else is gone and they call that a flow state, but that's not as interesting to me as What I call a panoramic flow state, which is when similar to that initial exercise of opening your Awareness around and feeling embodied. You're in the world, connected to everybody and everything. You're aware of being able to do kind of optimal functioning of complex tasks without thinking about thinking, and then you feel in the now, you feel selfless, a kind of sense of joy or well-being or ecstasy. Your implicit memory Is your thinking, so you know how to do whatever you're doing, and you're just operating from an awake awareness consciousness that's organizing your thought in a way that's effortlessly mindful.

AI assessment note: “organizing your thought in a way that's effortlessly mindful.”

Q Yeah. I want to get into the vocabulary, but before we sort of get there, and I think that'll help orient the conversation a little bit. What early experiences got you interested in mindfulness? Yeah.

A Yeah, this initial experience may help people kind of get on board with a little bit about what this kind of effortless mindfulness is about, which actually isn't traditional mindfulness. It's a little more like what people talk about flow consciousness or being in the zone. So probably as I look back, one of my first experiences was living outside of New York City and Playing a lot of different sports. Um, I was playing ice hockey goalie, and I was watching a football game on TV, and the announcer said about the quarterback, he's got eyes in the back of his head. And I thought, oh, I know what that is like. Oh, I, it doesn't mean you can actually see back there, but you have this kind of peripheral, uh, awareness that isn't just visual. It isn't just sensing or informational. Um, let me see if I can do that. And I literally started playing with my own consciousness and awareness, and I ended up finding a way to Open my awareness around to the sides, and my peripheral vision followed, and then I kind of let this awareness move to the sides where sounds coming going, and then somehow in kind of like, I'm not sure what I'm doing, but the awareness continued around in this kind of 360 degree panoramic feeling that then just dropped me into my body, so I felt kind of spacious and embodied, Kind of in this timeless here, almost like a cat. So I said, okay, let me do this when I play…

AI assessment note: “one of my first experiences was living outside of New York City and Playing a lot”

Q And then there's one more level beyond that, right? That was level four. Yeah.

A And then the fifth level is true nature, often translated as bodhicitta, which is translated as heart-mind or, uh, open-hearted awareness. So this is the, this is the place where you start to feel not only is everything interconnected, but there's a little like positive qualities are flourishing, and it's where your new operating system of flow Feels like it's a compassionate flow. So there's like a compassionate wisdom, a kind of non-reactivity, a feeling of like safety and friendliness, that even though stuff is happening in the world and you get triggered and everything, there's this greater, almost like something greater than you, yourself that's supporting you, and then you're kind of flowing out with More natural loving kindness. That isn't something you're kind of thinking about, but it's just like comes from that ease and wellbeing.

AI assessment note: “And then the fifth level is true nature, often translated as bodhicitta”

Q So maybe walk me through what that looks like. Like if I, if I come to you and I'm maybe let's do some common scenarios, right? Like I'm, I'm anxious. I'm feeling super anxious. What, what would you advise me to do?

A Yeah, so there's, there's two, two approaches. One is, um, one is the, the basic training. So I, I have, you know, kind of bunch of hats that, you know, I'm interested in the, as a psychotherapist, um, kind of a awakening teacher or meditation teacher, um, neuroscience, bringing in neuroscience and from the meditation awakening, um, It's really about, okay, let's not deal with the symptom. Let's train you over time to not focus on what's arising, but who or what is it arising to? That's, that's the key. We're not going to focus on, uh, changing your thoughts or trying to mitigate primarily. I mean, you would also always start with things that, you know, are basic, uh, Uh, calming and soothing practices, so there's ways to just, you know, I work with kind of a simple set of practices where you do kind of a three-part breath, and then breathe out a little slower, and what that does is it addresses the autonomic nervous system and your polyvagal, uh, nerves, and it also gives you one-pointed attention, and it oxygenates your system. You know, so there's certain preparations to get you out of that initial anxiety, but primarily it's finding that which is already here that isn't anxious, and then as that, go back and check out what that part of you that's anxious is worried about. So it's upgrading, and then, you know, there's a psychotherapy version of that, Um, that I could go thr…

AI assessment note: “starting with the, the anxiety and locating it, physicalizing it”

Q I think the best place to start this is sort of to dive into some of the vocabulary around this, because that's where I think people get into a lot of Trouble, myself included, which is, let's just start by defining some basic terms. What is consciousness?

A Yeah, so I'll, I'll, I'll play with, you know, again, it's almost like there's, there are these words that are used in common culture, and then they're used in, uh, psychology, academic psychology, then they're used in, uh, psychotherapy, then they're the translators from Tibetan Buddhism or Pali Buddhism translate words and start using similar words. So, so it's a quite a bit of, uh, A variety, um, and I've kind of taken them and defined them in a way that's about usefulness, or sometimes I call it the power of how, rather than how do I, how do you do this? So I would start with a definition of kind of different types of awareness, uh, and, you know, start with what we know as attention. So attention is like a one-pointed attention using, uh, Your frontal lobe of your brain, bring your attention to your breath, and then move to, uh, step up to mindful, uh, awareness, which is kind of the ability to not look from thought, but look at thought, and the great revelation of the first kind of insight of mindfulness is, oh, I'm not my thoughts. Oh, my thoughts. Even when they start with, I am thinking this thought are coming and going, and there's some awareness that's observing it.

AI assessment note: “I would start with a definition of kind of different types of awareness”

Q Uh, well, I'm simultaneously trying to keep track of, uh, sort of the conversation and also be in the moment with you. Uh, and those two things don't necessarily align super well, so I will go back and listen to this again. Can you talk to us about the three levels of mind?

A The, the three shifts are the shifts, uh, from small self to no self to this kind of true nature operating system. So that's the shift of identity. Then there's a shift of knowing from thought-based knowing that creates a thinker to not knowing or non-conceptual knowing or don't know mind, and then to kind of a not knowing that knows. Which is the way that this awareness-based knowing that's arising as thought can know. So that's a shift of identity, shift of knowing, and then the shift of perception, which is moving from using attentional system and mindful witness to perceiving from a spacious, pervasive, interconnected mind. Awake consciousness that isn't just limited to your body or detached witness, but it's perceiving from this that has markers that most people have felt if they really, you know, have been in a flow consciousness or have been in the zone or have been just walking in nature, you tend to feel the results. Oh, I feel good. I feel relaxed. But if you really felt Into, well, what's your relationship? Where are you aware of the forest from? Well, from me. Well, but just look, feel back that way. And then people who I'm walking with will say, oh my God, I'm like connected. To the trees, and I'm not in my head. So that's what we're doing. We're looking to the type of consciousness that is shift of perception, shift of knowing, and shift of identity. That's the th…

AI assessment note: “So that's what we're doing... And so, so then the five levels of mind”

Q I want to come back to something you said earlier about ego. Um, what is ego and what does it mean to be ego centered? Like when you said ego centric view, what does that mean?

A Yeah, so again, here we go with these, um, multi-defined terms, right, from 15 wise traditions and people. Ego is this, ego is that, small self is this, self is this, you know. So it's, it's a fascinating play, um, and where I am now is that, is that ego is kind of a function, um, And, uh, kind of managing parts of us. So there isn't one ego. There's a number of these parts of us. Like if you were to have one part of you say, well, I'm going to do it this way. And then another part of you would say, well, do you sure you have to do it that way? You know, is one of them your ego, or are they two parts of this kind of managing system or identified? Um, so in terms of psychology, many of the current psychological psychotherapy healing models that seem to work, um, are these parts-based systems. So rather than saying you're just, you know, you need to Get yourself together and become strong and healthy and competent. You realize, oh, there's parts of me. There's a sad part. There's an angry part. There's a hurt part. There's a judging part. There's a, and who, and then the key is who's aware of those parts. And that first step is kind of basic mindfulness. And then the next step is this, um, spacious and pervasive, open-hearted awareness from effortless mindfulness. And then you realize, well, what has been called ego doesn't need to be killed or fought or gotten rid of, or it's no…

AI assessment note: “ego is kind of a function... a personality part, a functional part that has an opinion”

Q What do you think is the hardest skill about what you've learned to transfer to other people?

A Certainly the, the, the languaging of it is the first, first one, because as many smart maps as we have from psychology and even, even reading the poetry and the wisdom traditions, it just seems like, uh, we're filtering it through our secondary process thinking and Uh, from a thinker in a subject-object way, and so we're taking in information and trying to understand it based on thoughts, concepts, and experiences that we've had, whereas moving from that knowing to not knowing to this new wordless awareness that could use words that doesn't have a center in our head But has a feeling of clarity and openness. So that, so even people who experience that in flow haven't looked that way. They haven't looked at that to say, well, where are you aware from when you're, no, I'm in flow. I'm so connected, everything. So they, they have the qualities, but they can only get into it through, okay, well, I do it through playing the violin. So I, you know, haven't played the violin, so I'm miserable. I better go play the violin. So this is like, no, when you're there, look to see what is looking. Like, don't just feel the results and the expression and the symptoms of, of qualities. Look to the looker. Look, look to find that where you're aware from. And so if we start with that, let's just Unhook from the small self, and have a little simple map, ok, and then there's no self, and then ther…

AI assessment note: “Certainly the, the, the languaging of it is the first, first one”

Q So often we're taught to suppress those feelings or avoid them. The anxiety, the stress, the Uh, with distractions, we sort of like seek happiness outside of ourselves. Can you expand on that?

A Yeah, so, I mean, a couple of the ways of dealing with them are, you know, from a strong ego, if you develop a strong ego, and many smart people who are good at life can, for a while, develop ego strengths and ego defenses, and kind of chug along and become successful, but usually they'll hit a wall at some point, whether it's in another area, like a relationship, or Become over, like, get the motor running too fast. It's almost seeing it in the frame of, there's a developmental stage, so there's different ways of thinking about it, but there's children or babies are talking about having primary process thinking, and then the next stage is you develop secondary process thinking, which is conceptual thinking, comparing, contrasting, and then we stop there, With the ego function and the smart parts of us. And so this is, you know, the tertiary or the third level of both knowing and identity that what has the capacity to bear what seemed to be unbearable and wants to do it and can do it, and that this no small ego can live a fully intimate life. Happy life. Because it will always be dualistically comparing, contrasting, striving, feeling not good enough, or can get into kind of a role, like I'm doing well, I'm positive thinking, but there's a feeling of being that we've all felt when we're relaxed and at ease. And what if that wasn't related to the conditions Like, oh, I'm on vaca…

AI assessment note: “a couple of the ways of dealing with them are, you know, from a strong ego”

Q And so we can flip this on almost on demand. That's what we're going to get into glimpses a little bit later and maybe walk people through some of that. Um, what is the most common reason people do this?

A So, I mean, the, the amazing thing is, you know, the history of this is, this is, you know, perhaps the most valued developmental stage of, of human beings throughout history and throughout cultures, you know, what's called awakening or enlightenment or, uh, a sense of full, being able to be fully human and particularly to relieve suffering. So that's the first half of it is, This access to this greater capacity, this felt sense, open mind, open heart dimension, That's awareness-based and embodied has the capacity and the space to be with and to see thoughts, feelings, sensations, and parts of us that are anxious, sad. So we end up feeling, uh, you know, I am sad or I am angry. And then you step into this and you realize, oh, there's a part of me that's sad. Oh, there's a part of me that's angry. Who's aware of those two parts? And then you realize the parts are smaller, but those, if we're operating from kind of an ego center, emotions are bigger than the ego center, so it's really upgrading The operating system from a small sense of self to this transitional selflessness or no self, but then the key is in this particular method is not just deconstructing and waiting after you let go of or realize there isn't a self in the middle of your head that's you, but literally letting the awareness discover an already awake Consciousness that's installed. That's able to relieve sufferi…

AI assessment note: “being able to be fully human and particularly to relieve suffering.”

Q So, so to continue, continue the operating system sort of theme, I guess, how do we create an interrupt in the moment? Like somebody cuts us off and we're driving and we instantly get hijacked. Like our brains, there's some biological hierarchy thing going on and we lose control. What can we do in those moments to make better decisions and ground ourselves?

A Yeah, so now we're gonna get into maybe a little of, of the unique glimpsing method, um, which you learn ahead of time, and then, you know, once you've learned it, and it, you know, takes, interestingly, the same amount of time, having taught deliberate mindfulness, or basic mindfulness, the same amount of time to learn this glimpsing practice, or effortless mindfulness, as it does Deliberate mindfulness, but it is a unique way of finding the identification with the thinker or the worrier or the part of us that's in fight or flight or freeze, and then unhooking the awareness and either having it drop from head to heart space and then open up and include, or move from thinking to seeing to hearing to open Effortless awareness that's inclusive and operating from a bigger, a bigger field of consciousness. That method, it, you know, once you learn it, I'm, you know, I'm doing like a A four-month course where now I'm meeting with long-time students who meet every other week with me, and then they have their own support groups in between, they're teaching each other, and you know, the reports they're making are, you know, that they're stabilizing this. So they learn the basics of glimpsing, which is not like much else that there is, In the world. So that's the unique thing.

AI assessment note: “unhooking the awareness and either having it drop from head to heart space”