The Exchanges

Q Are there levels of influence? I think you've written about them. What are those levels?

A Yeah, there are five. I wrote a book called The Five Levels of Leadership. What makes the book so helpful to people is they begin to understand that leadership is a verb. It's not a noun. And that there are different degrees of leadership and that they can kind of find out where they are. And then if they want to, they can have a game plan to go to the next level. So it begins at the very bottom, what we call the lowest level of leadership was, which is the position level. It's, it's where you have a job title, a job description that says you're a leader. Maybe they even call you a leader or supervisors or whatever. What's, I think, most insightful about level one, the position level, is that it's the lowest level of leadership, and yet, 80% of the people never get off of level number one. And, and I think they never get off of level number one because nobody's ever made them aware that there are other levels. It's kind of like, wow, I'm, I'm now a leader. In fact, when anybody just says, you know, I, last week I became a leader, John, I know that immediately that they think that being, having a position of leadership makes them a leader, which it doesn't. So level one is position level, and that's where we, that's where we normally all start if somebody gives us a leadership shot. And then level two is the permission level, which is all about relationships. In fact, it's at le…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, there are five. I wrote a book called The Five Levels of Leadership.”

Q John, you've taught over six million people how to lead better. What surprised you the most during that time?

A Well, I think the biggest surprise is that most people don't qualify themselves as a leader. They think of it as a title or a position. And so, um, whenever I talk about leadership, it's kind of like, well, I'm not one of those. And yet what I do is I teach leadership as influence, nothing more, nothing less. And every person has influence. And then they kind of get excited because I say, I can help you know how to increase your influence. You know, that, that appeals to even a parent of children. Okay. I can increase my influence, which as you do that, it's basically you're increasing your ability to lead people successfully. So I think what's been really a wonderful surprise is that once people understand and equate leadership and influence together, Then they're all in. They're saying, hey, okay, I may never have a leadership position, but I would certainly like to be able to be an influential person, and so they kind of dive into the leadership pool.

AI assessment note: “the biggest surprise is that most people don't qualify themselves as a leader.”

Q How do you go about learning from your past experiences? Do you have a process? Do you like, what does reflection look like to you? How do you walk me through that?

A Well, yeah, I'll be glad to. We hear a lot people say that, um, like experience is the best teacher. Well, it's a wonderful statement, it's just not true. Um, if experience were the best teacher, then everybody as they got older would be getting better. And so, I, when I think of experience being the best teacher, uh, I, I look and say, no, a lot of people go through experiences and they learn nothing, and they don't improve themselves. I think evaluated experience is the best teacher. I think after the experience, we pull ourselves away and ask ourselves, what, what did I learn from that? What, what, what did that experience have to teach me? My children, when they were growing up, when we'd have an experience, I'd ask them two questions. What did you love? What did you learn? And I'd always start with, what do you love? Because kids migrate to, oh, dad, that was so much fun. Ok, that, you love that. Well, what, what did you learn from it? Well, what I was doing by those two questions is I was training my children to evaluate every experience that they go through. And, and it's, it's the, and what does evaluation do to the experience? It, again, it brings an awareness to us. Uh, and anything that Awakens our awareness, or brings it into a, a, a, a, a much more clear light. It's a real benefit to us. And so, uh, as I look at, at where I've come through, and, and what I've done,…

AI assessment note: “I think evaluated experience is the best teacher. I think after the experience, we pull”

Q That's a really interesting insight. Have you had any other, um, sort of insights as you've, you've gotten older with how you determine success or satisfaction or happiness in life?

A Of course. I, you know, I mean, Shane, uh, when I started off, it was all about, you know, building my career, and I did that. I did that. But I, I began to realize, as the years have matured me, that, that success and significance are not the same thing, and success pretty much is about me, and about what I've done, and my career, and, and, you know, how I've taken care of my family, and the money I've made, you know, and the house that I have, and et cetera. And, and I, all of a sudden, I realized that there was a higher level of living there, and that was what I would call a, living a life of significance. And significance is, is all about others. It's, it's, it's how did I add value to you today, Shane? And how, how am I adding value to your listeners? And, and it's not about me. It's about improving the life of others, and I bet you do too. I know a lot of successful people, they're not happy. I mean, they have a lot of stuff, but they're not happy, but, but I've never known a person that committed to significance, which is adding value intentionally to others on a consistent basis. I, I've never known anybody that lived a significant life, which was all about others, that, that was unhappy. And all of a sudden I realized that our unhappiness and sometimes disappointment, disillusionment is based on the fact that we thought that if we would take care of ourselves, our life…

AI assessment note: “I began to realize, as the years have matured me, that, that success and significance are not the same thing”

Q I like that a lot. And I think part of it comes down to yourself too, right? Like before you, you can lead others. I think you, you in some ways have to learn to lead yourself and get results through accomplishment, which will Create confidence.

A No question. You know, people ask me what my greatest leadership challenge is, and I always tell them, well, my greatest challenge as a leader is leading me. You know, it's easy to You tell other people what to do, or, you know, it's easy to, you know, say, go ahead and charge that hill, but I got to go charge that hill, and I've got to make these improvements, and it's easier to tell somebody what to do than to do it yourself. So I think all great leadership with others begins with personal leadership myself. The first victory I want to have in my life is, is a personal one, and, you know, if I've got a few of those, I can help you get some victories in your life also, but, but I, I definitely believe that The, uh, credibility of leadership, the confidence of leadership all begins when I, when I lead myself well. If I can lead myself well, Then I've got potential leading you well, but if, if I can't lead myself well, you know, why would, why, why would I want someone else to follow me? I, you know, I, to be honest with you, a lot of people, they wouldn't be able to, and wouldn't want to follow themselves because they haven't done that.

AI assessment note: “No question... my greatest challenge as a leader is leading me.”

Q That's really interesting. I'd love to hear more about that sort of, um, audit you did at 40. Like, how did you define success when you said you weren't as successful as you wanted to be?

A Well, I think every person has kind of an idea, you know, you've got a dream and, and you're not sure how it's all going to end up. But at 40, when I kind of was checking in with myself, what I knew was that one, I worked very hard. And number two is that people that are from the outside that would look at me would already consider me to probably be successful. But I felt within me that I had not yet achieved near the level of my potential. And yet I looked at myself and I said, well, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm working very hard. I'm not a lazy person at all. And so why am I not satisfied or why am I not, uh, to the level I think I want to be? And my conclusion after not a long time, a few days of just inventory was that my team that I had I brought them in to do a workload, or to carry a workload for me, but I hadn't developed them, and so they weren't getting any better, and if they weren't getting any better, then the, the company wasn't going to get any better, and, and so I said, okay, I, I know what I'm going to do now. I'm going to, I'm going to pour my life into these people, And help them to get better, which is going to give, increase their capacity to help other people to grow too, and that's what I did at 40, and in the last 32 years have been just incredible, but they've been incredible because I, I made a change. I, I, you know, I called an audible at 40 and said, ok…

AI assessment note: “I felt within me that I had not yet achieved near the level of my potential.”

Q Is it easy for us to gain awareness of where we are in this? Do we just like intuitively look at these and we're like, okay, I know where I am or is, are there signs or cues that we should be paying attention to?

A No, I, I think that there's a lack of awareness. In fact, I wrote that book because most people weren't aware that there were levels of leadership. They weren't aware that leadership is a, a continual growth process and that leaders develop daily, not in the day. And so I wrote the book to help a person become aware because you can't grow yourself unless you know yourself, and so I think it's very important to, as a leader, to help people with awareness of where they are, you know, where they could be, and, uh, When people talk about being self-aware, I always say, I, I don't think so. I think that we all have blind spots. I do. I have things that I don't see about myself, and that's why I need other people to come around who, you know, care for me, but, but want to see me obviously reach my potential. And so they, sometimes the only self-awareness I have is the awareness that was given to me by someone else until I understood it and had a, maybe a A teachable spirit said, okay, I'm going to work on this area now, now that I see it, now that I know it. So I think a lot of my leadership writing and a lot of my leadership teaching really just help people be self-aware where they are. And, and, uh, it's kind of like, once you know where you are, now you can kind of, um, uh, get going in the right direction. But, but sometimes I have to find myself before I can, can move where I wa…

AI assessment note: “No, I, I think that there's a lack of awareness.”

Q Talk to me a little bit about confidence. Is, is that something, um, we're born with? Is it something we acquire? If we acquire it, how do we go about acquiring it?

A Well, I think, well, first of all, I, I, I believe that there are people that some people over, in comparison to others, have a natural leaning towards being a confident person. Uh, I think that there are some people that just, ok, there's a, there's a, ah, a naturalness about that to them that they, they're not working as hard on it as someone else that you'd have to say is maybe a born inward trait. So I, I think that there's a part of that in, in a person's life, whether it's in leadership or confidence or whatever, but even if it's a natural inclination or a leaning that a person has to being self-confident, They have to develop it. You know, no matter what kind of natural gifts and talents you and I have, there still is a responsibility of ours to maximize those talents and learn, grow, improve, and, um, you know, order our life so that we're going to continue to grow. And so when it comes to leadership and, and, and all of these, what I would call success issues in a life, it's kind of like, what are you doing with your life now to make it better or to improve it? And I think that we all to improve our life have to be committed to a process. There's no quick way to get to the top. And, uh, it's a, it's an uphill steady climb. Leaders are not made In a day, they're made daily. And I think that I help people buy into that process of, ah, every day I, I'm, I'm getting better…

AI assessment note: “even if it's a natural inclination... They have to develop it.”

Q I think that's great. Um, I want to thank you for the time, John. I want to end on, um, maybe a more philosophical question in the sense of what does a fulfilled life look like to you?

A Well, I love the question and I love it for two reasons. A fulfilled life. I love that question because I think it's possible to have one. And, uh, I think many people do not. And I love that question, not only because I think it's possible to have one, but I, I love that question because I believe that most people don't know the process to have a fulfilled life. And, uh, so when anybody asks me a question that I think is within reach of a person, I get very excited because it, it improves them. So I think a fulfilled life is a life is live for others. And that, um, it's not about me. Uh, I, you know, I, I teach a lot of communication and, uh, when people say, I want to be a great communicator rule or law. Number one is very simple. If you want to be a great communicator, get over yourself, just get over yourself. If I haven't gotten over who I am, and I have got to, well, I hope they like me, I hope I sound good, I, I hope they think I'm a good teacher, I hope I've got some depth, I, the moment that I'm concerned about how people perceive me is the moment that I began to put limitations on my communication skills. And so, you know, I, I tell people all the time, if you want to be a great communicator, get over yourself. Well, if you want to live a fulfilled life, get over yourself. And the reason for that is, is that we are created and designed to be people that help each othe…

AI assessment note: “So I think a fulfilled life is a life is live for others.”

Q That seems like a great lesson to learn. So much today seems actually about learning and unlearning and relearning. What have you uncovered about learning?

A Well, I found that this learning, unlearning, relearning process is essential. To a person's success. And, uh, in fact, I wrote another book, Leader Shift, and in that I, I talk about this process of learning, unlearning, and relearning. You know, uh, Harvard Business Review in the last year has come out with a statement that if you have a bachelor's degree in five years, that bachelor's degree only has about a five-year shelf life now. And, uh, well, what does that say? That being true, I've got to keep learning new things, and, and what I learned in college, I've got to unlearn, and, and then I got to turn around and, and, and relearn again, and that cycle never stops of learning, unlearning, and relearning. And it's, you know, I have a, I have a, we have a wonderful company called the John Maxwell team. It's a coaching company. We have 30,000 plus coaches, 162 countries around the world. And, uh, it's just been the fastest growing, the largest successful coaching company in the world. And people ask me all the time, how, how, how's that been successful? Well, we have a, a cycle of success that we go through it, and, and that cycle has five parts to it. It's the first, you know, the first part is to test, you know, okay, let's go try something. We're not even really sure that'll work, but, but, but we, we need some new ideas, and so let's go try it. Well, right behind the tes…

AI assessment note: “I found that this learning, unlearning, relearning process is essential. To a person's success.”

Q You've said in the past that if your level of influence is higher with the followers than the leaders, you're in trouble. Can you expand on that?

A Well, I can. Um, first of all, most leaders never develop other leaders. They just have followers. And, and the reason for that is very simple. Followers are looking for somebody to lead them. They're, honestly, they're looking for the line. Where do I get in? And, and, and where are we going? Can you help me get there? Whereas if you're trying to develop leaders, they're not as needy, and they're not as hungry to get in line and have somebody kind of show them the way. In fact, they kind of want to put people in their line. I used to laugh and say leading leaders are like herding cats. So when I wrote, when I wrote this book on The Leader's Greatest Return, it's kind of like If you read this book, I don't, I don't promise you it's going to be easy, but I do promise you it'll be worthwhile. I wrote the book because as a young leader and people that have, are starting off and trying to build businesses, they have so many things that demand and call for their attention. It's kind of like, I don't have time to invest in my people. I don't have time to mentor them because I've got to keep, you know, just try to keep this door open here. And, uh, it's a huge mistake because if you invest in people, they'll help you keep that door open and you won't have to be doing it all yourself. But many people just don't see the return or the fact that they have so many other pressing needs righ…

AI assessment note: “most leaders never develop other leaders. They just have followers.”

Q I've talked with a lot of people. And one of the things that surprises me is nobody's ever come up to anybody that I know of and said, here's the one thing that's holding you back at work. I work with you. I know it. I believe in you. I want to help you. Nobody ever does that. Why do you think that is?

A Well, I think that I think a lot of times we don't speak into another person's life because we, you know, we don't want to hurt them. You know, we, maybe we want them to like us. As a, as a young leader, one of my greatest weaknesses was that I wanted to make everybody happy, and I, and I mistakenly thought that good leaders made everybody happy, and so I was, I was much more concerned on making them happy than I was helping them. And in fact, I remember when I wrote the 21 Irrefutable Laws of Leadership, I was signing books, Shane, and so this guy brought up the 21 Laws book to me, and I started to sign it, and he said, John, he said, I've read the book, and he said, I disagree with, with, with, with one of your laws. And I smiled, and I said, well, that's ok. I signed the book and handed it back to him. He never moved. He said, wait. He said, I don't think you understood me. He said, I read the 21 laws, and he said, I, I disagree with one of those laws. And I, I get smiled. I said, I understand what you said. It's okay. It's okay. You don't have, you don't have to agree with all the laws. I'm okay with that. Well, I was okay with that, but, but he wasn't okay with that. So he's kind of, you know, kind of wanting to press me a little bit more in it. And it's, it's kind of like somebody coming up to me, Shane, and said they don't agree with the law of gravity. Well, okay. It's …

AI assessment note: “we don't speak into another person's life because we... don't want to hurt them.”