The Exchanges

Q So how should parents think about that with kids? Cause there's a lot of questions around screen time and whether I should let my kids play certain video games or not. How do you think about that?

A Okay. So the number one thing is you have to be in conversation with your kids around what they're playing. And there are three really powerful questions that I ask my kids and anybody I'm trying to get to know better and like understand the relationship to games and understand their personal strengths. So you ask them about whatever their favorite game is right now. What does it take to be good at this game? What skills does it require? Um, what kind of personality or temperament does it require? You ask them, what have you gotten better at since you started playing this game? And you ask, what's the hardest thing you've accomplished in this game? And ask them to tell you about how they did it. You know, um, what, what did you have to do in order to meet that challenge? Um, because it turns out that people who can talk about What they've gotten better at, what real skills, whether it's, you know, being able to manage my breathing under pressure, my heart rate under pressure, if they're a competitive esports player, or if it's, um, creativity, um, maybe it's, uh, I don't give up when things are hard. It's communication and stressful situations with my teammates. It's, I can get, I know where to look whenever I, I don't know what to do. I'm a really good information finder, whatever it is. People who can talk about that, they tend to bring those skills to their work, to their le…

AI assessment note: “you have to be in conversation with your kids around what they're playing.”

Q You also did a lot of work on concussions, right? I remember listening to some of the background material for this, and the first, is it three hours or three days are critical, and then 30, and then a year?

A Yeah. Um, so I'm lucky I was able to get a clinical trial grant from the National Institutes for Health to actually test super better for traumatic brain injury recovery, um, because there isn't a lot of standard treatment for concussions. It's really just rest and try not to get a second hit, which can be more dangerous. Um, so basically like hole up in a dark room and it is important to give your brain rest during those, you know, first three days or first week. I went through a process, uh, with my own recovery where I learned that if you don't feel better in a week, they anticipate most people feel better in a month. And if you don't feel better in a month, then most people feel better in three months. And if you haven't felt better by 90 days, then it will be a year. And at that point, you may be stuck with it forever. So you kind of, a lot of people have this really difficult psychological experience of hitting all these milestones and they're still not better, which was also my experience. And, um, when we tested super better, In our clinical trial with Cincinnati Children's Hospital and Ohio State University Medical Research Center, we were specifically dealing with people who had this long concussion or post-concussion syndrome who didn't recover on time, and then not only do you still have all the symptoms of concussion, now you're incredibly anxious, incredibly depre…

AI assessment note: “if you don't feel better in a week, they anticipate most people feel better”

Q That's crazy. And then, so it also gives you something to think about and do that's not too far in the future, right? Like it, because part of what I understand about concussions is we lose our ability to think about the future.

A Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, it's really interesting. So one thing that happens is when you try to imagine the future, uh, it loses that vividness, the detail. You describe it in a more sort of general or vague way. So there's actually a functional loss in your ability to imagine the future. And then when you do imagine the future, even if you're thinking about things that normally you get, would get you excited, your brain is basically refusing to fire up The pathways that allow dopamine to get you excited and motivated and, and paying attention. Even when you imagine the future, it just looks all kind of bleak and gloomy. Um, what Superbetter does is, you know, the first thing it does is it basically tries to trick your brain into believing that something good could happen as a result of your own actions, and it starts incredibly small. I mean, the first four things you do in Superbetter are You know, stand up and take three steps. And no matter how you're feeling, um, because that gets the blood flowing and it automatically disrupts the inflammation process. So like, great. You did one good thing that will actually help your brain. And all you had to do is take three steps. Um, in fact, I'm going to just do it right now because I've been sitting at my computer all day and I have a migraine right now. So I'm going to just do a little bit to feel better. Um, but you know, or you wo…

AI assessment note: “there's actually a functional loss in your ability to imagine the future.”

Q Are there any warning signs that parents should watch out for in their kids that, um, borderline addiction or behaviors that, what are those?

A Yeah, I mean, the first thing you do if you have any concerns is start, um, counting up the time that's spent playing, right? So if it's over 21 hours a week, um, I do recommend that you start trying to control it or shape it, unless they are an extremely accomplished esports player, because, you know, people can make, you can make hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournaments, it's a job, you can play 40 hours a week if it's your full-time job, fine. But, you know, short of that, Keep a, keep a log for a week or two. See how many hours it is, um, because, um, in, in all of the studies that have been done of kids, of adults, of all the negative impacts of games, no study has found negative impacts at less than 21 hours a week. So just, you know, want to be safe. Great. Keep it three hours a day. That's plenty of gaming for somebody's well-being. The other warning sign is If gameplay seems to increase in intensity while real life problems are also increasing. So What you don't want to see is, like, a direct relationship between, like, more problems, more games. What I talk about is attention, and, you know, if somebody seems to be going down a dark tunnel of, of addiction, where it's not, it's not that they're neurologically addicted to the game, it's just that everything else seems so hopeless. The game feels like the only place where they can make any progress or have any me…

AI assessment note: “if it's over 21 hours a week... The other warning sign is”

Q So how should parents think about that with kids? Cause there's a lot of questions around screen time and Whether I should let my kids play certain video games or not. How do you think about that?

A Okay. So the number one thing is you have to be in conversation with your kids around what they're playing. And there are three really powerful questions that I ask my kids and anybody I'm trying to get to know better and like understand the relationship to games and understand their personal strengths. So you ask them about whatever their favorite game is right now. Um, what does it take to be good at this game? What skills does it require? Um, what kind of personality or temperament does it require? You ask them, what have you gotten better at since you started playing this game? And you ask, what's the hardest thing you've accomplished in this game? And ask them to tell you about how they did it. You know, um, what, what did you have to do in order to meet that challenge? Um, because it turns out that people who can talk about what they've gotten better at What real skills, whether it's, you know, being able to manage my breathing under pressure, my heart rate under pressure, if they're a competitive esports player, or if it's, um, creativity, um, maybe it's, uh, I don't give up when things are hard. It's communication and stressful situations with my teammates. It's, I can get, I know where to look whenever I, I don't know what to do. I'm a really good information finder, whatever it is. People who can talk about that, they tend to bring those skills to their work, to their…

AI assessment note: “the number one thing is you have to be in conversation with your kids”

Q Are there better times a day for kids to play?

A Yeah, so, okay, there's a really counterintuitive study that, um, I, parents always go like, oh, when I tell them about it, because it's, it showed the opposite of what most parents assume is true, um, which is if you want kids to retain what they study better, you should have them play video games first, and then do their homework, and then study before they go to sleep, because if you study first, and then as your reward, you get to play games, When you go to sleep, your brain is going to focus on the most salient problem it was recently trying to solve. I'm sure, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, you go to sleep and your brain starts like, just, it's working on whatever you were just really fixated on. So you want that brain to be fixated on, you know, the calculus or, well, you know, the, the, whatever the foreign words you're studying are, um, not on the level that you were trying to solve in a game. So actually reversing the order is, is a really good tip. Um, the, the key is just to setting a hard time limit so that, you know, they play for 90 minutes and they switch to work or, Whatever it is. Um, but yeah, you don't, you don't want to have the game right before bed unless you're, you've recently been traumatized, which is, this is like, can we do a PSA? A little public service announcement. Um, if you're having flashbacks of a traumatic event or you're r…

AI assessment note: “you should have them play video games first, and then do their homework”

Q Is there a difference between the benefits we get from single player games versus multiplayer games?

A Yeah. You know, I say right game, right time, right person. You know, if you're trying to control your attention, you might have an easier time with a single player game. Um, if you're trying to manage anxiety, or you want to, you know, slow your heart rate down, or, um, you, you need some, you need a positive emotion because you're having a hard day, you know, just pull out your phone or your switch or whatever, and do a little solo gaming that gets you in the right frame of mind. Um, And then, you know, social gaming. I mean, we know that people who spend a lot of time playing the same game with the same people, um, report getting more social support in their everyday lives. So even if it's a game like Pokemon Go, where you might not see the other player, you might not be speaking to them. Maybe we're doing remote raids together. We're just sending each other virtual gifts every day. Um, you're more likely to, um, Text somebody that you've had an interaction with in the game, or pick up the phone and ask them for help with a problem, or just feel like you have a rich network of support if you need it. It's sort of that safety net that you feel like you have in your life that makes us, I don't know, less anxious or feel less alone. Um, if you play the same game with the same people, League of Legends, whatever it is. And so, yeah, you know, I try to have a balance in my life. …

AI assessment note: “if you're trying to control your attention, you might have an easier time with a single player game”

Q Is there a difference between the benefits we get from single player games versus multiplayer games?

A Yeah. You know, I say right game, right time, right person. You know, if you're trying to control your attention, you might have an easier time with a single player game. Um, if you're trying to manage anxiety, or you want to, you know, slow your heart rate down, or, um, you, you need some, you need a positive emotion because you're having a hard day, you know, just pull out your phone or your switch or whatever, and do a little solo gaming that gets you in the right frame of mind. Um, And then, you know, social gaming. I mean, we know that people who spend a lot of time playing the same game with the same people, um, report getting more social support in their everyday lives. So even if it's a game like Pokemon Go, where you might not see the other player, you might not be speaking to them. Maybe we're doing remote raids together. We're just sending each other virtual gifts every day. Um, you're more likely to, um, Text somebody that you've had an interaction with in the game, or pick up the phone and ask them for help with a problem, or just feel like you have a rich network of support if you need it. It's sort of that safety net that you feel like you have in your life that makes us, I don't know, less anxious or feel less alone. Um, if you play the same game with the same people, League of Legends, whatever it is. And so, yeah, you know, I try to have a balance in my life. …

AI assessment note: “if you're trying to control your attention, you might have an easier time with a single player game”

Q It seems like people, people do jump on video games in some ways because it seems like everything is being gamified these days from every job. Is that a good thing or bad thing? How do you think about that?

A Yeah. I mean, I think I'm really angry at the, the organizations that have tried to use game mechanics to essentially exploit what games do well in service of goals that they have, but that are not in the interest of, you know, a player or a user or an employee, right? Like, I mean, when we talk about gamification, usually what we're talking about are people who are, you know, Being, being motivated to do something they don't want to do. Whether it's like work, work harder, buy more stuff, pay longer attention, or engage more in something that they probably should stop and go do something else. Um, and it's, it's a really, it's a, it's, it's a way of trying to, to control people's engagement against their own interests. And, uh, that's certainly not something that I support, um, any time I hear gamification used in that way, it makes me, you know, really angry, um, because we should be making things that support people in doing more of what they authentically want to do, and that brings them benefit. Um, you know, in my own work, in my own career, um, I had the opportunity once to make a game for the New York Public Library, and they were celebrating their 100th anniversary, and they were dealing with the problem of, like, young people don't go to the physical library, um, Anymore. And this is like this generational, just dropping off a cliff of use of the library. And so they …

AI assessment note: “I'm really angry at the, the organizations that have tried to use game mechanics”

Q I want to get into more about super better and what specifically about it helps you with recovery, but what else did you learn about concussions in general?

A I mean, uh, there's a lot of inflammation involved, so it looks like, you know, little things you can do that tend to decrease inflammation systemically are helpful for recovery. Um, so there are dietary things like you can do like increasing turmeric, uh, in your diet. Eating things like, you know, walnuts or fatty fishes, um, that can help early on, um, in the first year of recovery. And, you know, meditation, kind of things that systematically lower inflammation throughout the body because a lot of the, I want to say almost physical symptoms of concussion, the incredible headaches and the brain, uh, fatigue and fog comes from the inflammation. So, but there's really not a lot known about About how to speed it up. It's like, it just basically you, you kind of wait and see, and there's nothing there's are, you know, super better has been shown in the, in the literature to improve depression, anxiety, and recovery faster. But we don't, we don't exactly know why. Um, we have some hypotheses that I could chat with you about. It's so under understood for something that affects so many people.

AI assessment note: “there's a lot of inflammation involved, so it looks like, you know, little things you can do”

Q What are your hypotheses on like why that is working so well?

A Well, I think there's a kind of downward spiral with concussion where yes, you have these symptoms that are very real. And particularly the headaches and the nausea and the memory issues or concentration issues. But when you start to add depression, anxiety, and social isolation or loneliness on top of that, then it creates an intensification of the inflammation that's triggering the physical symptoms. It makes it harder for you to do the things that we know can help you get better. I mean, if you just lie in bed all day, it's actually not good for recovery. You do have to get out of bed. You have to Kind of work up to a threshold that's, like, 10% below it triggers your symptoms and keep pushing that. But if you're too depressed or you're too anxious, then you never make any forward progress. Plus, you've got all the extra inflammation, all the extra cortisol, the adrenaline. So, you know, I think what the researchers that I worked with at Penn and OSU and I believe is probably helping with the concussion recovery is it's take, it's basically getting people out of the way. You know, if you can If you cannot make anything worse, you know, don't add any extra problems, um, so that the depression, anxiety, um, don't Intensify it, and then you'll have a little more energy to do the things that will help you get better, faster. Um, a little more willpower, not to push yourself, bec…

AI assessment note: “I think what the researchers that I worked with at Penn and OSU and I believe”

Q Are there better times a day for kids to play?

A Yeah, so, okay, there's a really counterintuitive study that, um, I, parents always go like, oh, when I tell them about it, because it's, it showed the opposite of what most parents assume is true, um, which is if you want kids to retain what they study better, you should have them play video games first, and then do their homework, and then study before they go to sleep, because if you study first, and then as your reward, you get to play games, When you go to sleep, your brain is going to focus on the most salient problem it was recently trying to solve. I'm sure, I don't know if you've ever had this experience, you go to sleep and your brain starts like, just, it's working on whatever you were just really fixated on. So you want that brain to be fixated on, you know, the calculus or, well, you know, the, the, whatever the foreign words you're studying are, um, not on the level that you were trying to solve in a game. So actually reversing the order is, is a really good tip. Um, the, the key is just to setting a hard time limit so that, you know, they play for 90 minutes and they switch to work or whatever it is. Um, but yeah, you don't, you don't want to have the game right before bed unless You're, you've recently been traumatized, which is, this is like, can we do a PSA? A little public service announcement. Um, if you're having flashbacks of a traumatic event, or you're r…

AI assessment note: “you should have them play video games first, and then do their homework”

Q Is there truth to the violence in video games leads to violence in adulthood?

A No, isn't that, we're such idiots. Like, the fact that we're still talking about that decades after it's been, like, systematically disproven. I mean, like, the most conclusive evidence that it's not true is that the number of, um, people who play, you know, I, I put violent in quotation marks because the really violent games are like American football. I mean, talk about concussions, right? We actually have violent games that we play, and they're, Most of them are physical sports where we actually do violence to ourselves and our own bodies and to each other. You know, video games, the number of people and the hours that we've spent playing them, um, has skyrocketed, and yet, uh, violent crime has gone down almost on the same curve, and so it's just, it's like completely ludicrous, and nobody actually believes it increases violence. So the one thing we know is that if you are ideating on a violent activity, let's say you're like a really disturbed individual, And you start to have fantasies of acting out. Your fantasies are likely to be informed by whatever media you're consuming, whether it's graphic novels or movies or video games, and so you may act out what you've seen in a game. Um, if you weren't a gamer, you might act out what you've seen in a movie. If I had someone in my life who I was worried had, you know, violent fantasies or was having Severe, like psychotic break…

AI assessment note: “No, isn't that, we're such idiots. Like, the fact that we're still talking”

Q What are the best games for kids to play, do you think, in different age groups, say like under 10, 10 to 15? And I, I, I know that it's the, it's dependent on, you know, kid and timing, but there's probably some games that give you better lessons possibly than others.

A Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I, there, first of all, there's a cultural currency to playing the games that your peers are playing, and one of the big benefits that we know kids get is that kind of social confidence when they are in the culture as their peers. So, I mean, it, it changes from time to time. You know, Minecraft is still very popular and gives you a, a, a wide range of, you know, do you want a little bit of adrenaline? Do you, do you know, Do you, do you want the creepers to be able to destroy what you create, or do you want to be in a nice, peaceful, creative mode? There, that's an environment where you can choose, you know, how you want to play, and there's a big community around it. You know, I, I, Pokemon Go is great because it gets people active and out exploring their real world environments, and I certainly know my kids started getting way more Active steps, and we started playing it together, and that's important. I think whatever is kind of in the peer group is, is a good thing. It's a good thing to do, because particularly for, for young kids, we're seeing that being a part of that culture is, is really important. You know, Wall Street Journal had an interesting article about how gamers, kids in the U.S. who have been gamers their whole lives seem to have adapted psychologically better to the pandemic, to being forced To do at home learning and not be able t…

AI assessment note: “Minecraft is still very popular and gives you a, a, a wide range”

Q Do video games help us make predictions about the future, or are there things that we can do to prime us for learning?

A Ah, what can I, so there is one aspect of video gaming that kind of makes you a better futurist. Um, so sort of my career kind of like forked like an alternate timeline, um, where I started developing and being trained as a professional futurist. Um, when I started my research in gaming and I was doing all this research into like, well, what if we were using games to change the real world and not just virtual worlds? I was discovered by The Institute for the Future, which is the world's oldest future forecasting organization. It's been around for 60 years now. And they said, well, it sounds like you're actually inventing the future. So like, come be a future Futurist with us because the best way to predict the future is to actually be the one who's inventing it and deciding what it will be. So in my professional futures practice, what I've discovered is that people who spend a lot of time playing games are actually very effective at anticipating, um, second, third, fourth order consequences of future events. So, you know, like when you're playing a game, you might be imagining like, okay, if I do this, Then what is the other player going to do? Or if I use this resource, you know, what will happen next? Well, how will I solve a problem if I don't have that resource anymore and I have to try another way? And so you're, you start to like think one step ahead, two steps ahead, thr…

AI assessment note: “people who spend a lot of time playing games are actually very effective at anticipating”

Q Are there things that we can do as parents in your mind to help the kids, um, teach themselves?

A I mean, I'm just starting this process myself. I mean, well, let me, let me say that anybody who's interested in this, if you just start Googling unschooling, there are experts on this who can, who can speak to the difference between learning on your own, what you want to learn and being like forced to Perform under pressure. What somebody else thinks you need to know. Um, and so just starting down that rabbit hole of unschooling is it's, you know, I had never heard of that term until this past year. And, uh, there's a great book it's called, uh, why are your kids still in school? It really woke me up and I thought, yeah, you know, especially in the pandemic, like this is a good time to ask that question. Why are we letting someone else design our kids everyday lives? I mean, the amount of time they spend in school, I'm a game designer. I'm really good at designing. Experiences and, you know, environments where you get to learn and grow and improve skills. And so I'm just, I think, I think we need to rethink seeding all of the power of what our kids do every day to a bureaucratic and unimaginative anxiety producing institution.

AI assessment note: “if you just start Googling unschooling, there are experts on this”