The Exchanges

Q And that's also how we get the northern lights, right? So it's the reflection off of that debris that sort of reflect, Refracts the light differently or?

A So, so, so think of that particle I just described at the equator. So at the particle at the equator, it goes away because remember the magnetic field force is always perpendicular to the magnetic field itself. Now let's go at the polar region. At the polar region, the magnetic fields are coming in, right? Kind of just look at, you know, Google magnetic field of a dipole. You see that the magnetic fields are coming in. So up there, the particles are like a funnel. They're coming down. They're not deflected. They're like Funnel coming in and they come in and they hit the atmospheric, uh, uh, oxygen and whatever is there and it'll, it makes them light like a neon light or whatever, you know, a light that you have in which kind of high energy particles are exciting them and they radiate. That's so the, the Northern lines are, are energetic particles, both from the sun, but also from the back of the earth magnetic field, kind of funneled into the top, into the polar regions. And igniting, if you want, uh, the spectacle of light.

AI assessment note: “they hit the atmospheric, uh, uh, oxygen and whatever is there and it'll, it makes them light”

Q We talk about things we've learned from running experiments on the International Space Station, our missions to Mars and whether we'll ever colonize it, How space is governed, and decision making. In fact, this episode is a master class in decision making from someone who routinely makes billion dollar decisions. It's time to listen and learn. Can you tell us in your own words how you got interested in astrophysics?

A You know, I grew up in the mountains in Switzerland, and, uh, frankly, quite isolated. I grew up in a quasi-Amish community with a father who was a religious leader, and so I didn't have a lot in my life, you know, that other people have. The only book I really read was the Bible, and, you know, so, so what I did have, though, is an amazing environment in that little village where I grew up. I saw the sky kind of in a way that frankly, I've rarely ever seen since my youth. And I was outside a lot at night, uh, on my back, frankly, on the roof and looking at the stars, uh, over time, I bought a, a map, a star map, and I started looking at it. And so for me, the stars were always both, um, a goal, but also an escape kind of, for me, it was just amazing. So I started, of course, asking questions just like we all do. That was the start for astrophysics for me.

AI assessment note: “That was the start for astrophysics for me.”

Q Do you feel, what is your take on that? Do you think that there's somebody out there watching us?

A That's kind of, first of all, I, Believe it's very likely, right? I mean, as a scientist, the answer must be, I don't know. And by the way, that's not a cop-out. It's the answer to most questions that we ask in science. I don't know, or I don't yet know. So for me, uh, you know, that question, we actually are making a ton, a ton of progress towards, I mean, frankly, during my professional lifetime, it's probably the question where we've made most groundbreaking discoveries, you know, kind of if I When I started my, uh, kind of master's degree in astrophysics, uh, we had no planets elsewhere other than the ones in our solar system. In the meantime, we have thousands of those planets, and some of them look awfully like, you know, like our own, uh, kind of relative to the data we have, which are really, really, really sparse. So we're on that track towards, uh, you know, a belief or kind of a, a sense that, Yeah, you know, life, just like planetary systems, life could also be very much distributed in the universe.

AI assessment note: “Believe it's very likely, right? I mean, as a scientist, the answer must be”

Q How do experiments work on the space station? Are they coordinated across countries, or is the data shared? Does each country do their own experiments?

A For most of the, uh, data, and let me just talk about NASA first, for all of our experiments, uh, we have a policy of sharing all data, and I love that, because frankly, so much of, of the, the work we do, whether it's about astrophysics, and especially about earth science, Uh, we're all better off if we share all the data because it's kind of a common good, right? That's the taxpayers are paying for it. Let's make it as useful as possible. And it's incredible what people figure out with those data. So what we have done in the space station work is, is we have actually created partnerships in which, uh, multiple countries are, are participating and they have their own channels up there. And there's an integration board that kind of makes sure That, you know, we're not doing twice the same thing that we partner when we can, but we encourage and empower both, um, you know, government agencies, but also companies to put Work on the space station and then, uh, coordinate that. Now in what we have done, especially for companies, we have, uh, kind of adopted IP laws in a way that does not undercut the ability of, of, of actually commercializing some of the results that are there. That's deliberately, but for this, for the science, uh, work, it basically is, uh, public data where, you know, we're, we're trying to enhance kind of if, You know, rise all boat, all boats, right, kind of i…

AI assessment note: “we have actually created partnerships in which, uh, multiple countries are, are participating”

Q you balance that and how you think about, okay, well, we're investing three billion and we need to eventually ship this, but on the same token, the money at stake and, and in a public way too, it's not even a private company losing three billion. It's the public that would You know, be losing three billion. How do you think about those decisions and how do you make them?

A So first of all, you recognize that the launch is irreversible decision, right? And of the moment I say go, it's done. You don't get it back. It is over, right? So it's irreversible. So, so basically whenever you make a decision like that, and many people do that in the business world too, right? Kind of these kind of one way doors. I think, uh, as others call, I've got a few, you only go through it once the way you do it, I believe is, is you recognize, do you want to make the decision well informed? And with all the scrutiny upfront. So, so the way I make that decision is first of all, I don't make it alone. I put in a room. The people, the best people that I know kind of from the engineers, but also the policy people and, you know, and I actually have people who are, don't report to each other. Like I have an engineering organization, just the way we built NASA over decades that we have an engineering organization that talks about just engineering without any other encumbrances, right? The question just is, will it work? What's the likelihood for it to work? There's one that talks about safety just that way. Is it going to be safe, right? And no other, no other if, thens, that's their focus. And so you basically, the way you make the decision is you, you bring together that kind of, of course you work, you recognize by the way, the most important thing is to empower the team…

AI assessment note: “the way I make that decision is first of all, I don't make it alone”

Q Do you think it changes NASA's role at all in terms of risk taking where you can start to take more risks now and when things work out, you can pass that technology to the private sector?

A That's exactly what I want to do. Exactly right. That's exactly what I want to do. I want to focus on the things that Company cannot do it because it's too crazy. It's too risky. So we have done things to, uh, for that, right? Kind of the James Webb space telescope that I just talked about is one of those things. It's not possible to do in a private setting, but at this moment in time, but as we go forward, it may be, uh, but also I have a new program, the commercial lunar payload services program to the moon in which I basically said, I'm bill, I'm buying at firm fixed price delivery services to the moon. Who wants to play? I did that after, you know, I came into NASA and I saw these Google XPRIZE companies that had been focused, you know, being funded by, by, uh, you know, venture capital and other sources, not government sources. I was like, okay, if you have a company that could do that, I want to be a customer. By the way, I don't want to be the only customer, not interested whatsoever to own that industry, but I want to be an anchor customer. And by the way, I'm going to take the risk. So what I did is I talked to every stakeholder, Including those on the hill and say, look, the likelihood of that is not a hundred percent. You should think of it as a 50, 50 shot on goal. So we need to, you know, like hockey, we need to take shots on goal to score. So, so for us, it's kind…

AI assessment note: “That's exactly what I want to do. Exactly right.”

Q I have a million questions about space. I was so excited when you agreed to come on. One of the first questions I wanted to ask is, um, my kids actually proposed this, which is, what, what's the most interesting things we've learned from running experiments on the International Space Station?

A It's a really good question. Uh, I do believe, um, you know, and it depends a little bit who's asking, right? So for me, uh, I'll give two answers depending on who's, who's asking. I think the, the most important one, uh, is really kind of a series of, of answers that relate to one question. And that is how is the, uh, human body or even life itself, um, kind of evolve or change, uh, without gravity. And there's important, very, very important work that has happened relative to our bone structure, uh, relative to our, uh, visual system, but also now relative to our, uh, just genetic expression, right? We have, uh, with, with the twin study, uh, that, uh, one of the, an identical twin went on the space station for a long time. The other one stayed on the ground with that twin study and the kind of generosity of those individuals to make the kind of the, the DNA public. There's, uh, an, uh, Abundance of research that really talks about how gene expressions are changing in space. So for me, that is a super exciting part, you know, and a question we can't really answer on the ground. The other one, I just want to say the space station has been the site of much research and, and, uh, and there's a lot of experiments hanging on the outside of the space station. And for me, probably the most exciting one relates to neutron stars. You know, they're, These kind of high energy, high dens…

AI assessment note: “how is the, uh, human body or even life itself, um, kind of evolve or change”

Q I appreciate you sharing the details of that. You said there was two decisions that you recalled. What was the other one?

A So the first one was let's fire, even though everybody opposed it. The second, uh, was, uh, let's not fire because, you know, even though some of the technical people said we could do it, but we put enough scrutiny together that basically, uh, basically, again, I was wrong on the first decision. I, you know, kind of, if you could say, well, You know, I'm sure somebody says like, well, you could have just not fired and we're exactly where we are. It's like, no, that's exactly the right scrutiny because in a congressional hearing, I could actually now explain to you how I cautious, I cautiously spent that extra fifty million dollars. It's not because I just, I'm not handling the pressure. Well, we actually learned something that really matters. Learning is an important part of innovation.

AI assessment note: “The second, uh, was, uh, let's not fire”

Q useful. And in which case does Mars become almost a mining colony? And then we have another race to see who can get there first and who can extract these. Cause we're eventually going to run out of these rare earth materials. And if we find substitutes on other planets, how do you see that playing out? Or am I just like way too far in sci-fi land right now?

A No, I think this is our lifetime kind of issue, the mining calling. Now, if you look, I think what, what you said about Mars is highly appropriate kind of, uh, resources relate to living there, living off the land, but it also is creating business models that kind of make it viable. It's feasible and viability, right? Both, both matter. I want to talk to you about another celestial body just to amplify your point. It's called Psyche. It's, you know, like Psyche, like the Psyche in me, you know, P-E-S-Y-C-H-E. So it's an asteroid. We think it's a failed, a failed planet. So it's a planet that has a core that it, you know, a metal core and kind of enormously pressures if it's true, right? Kind of the size. We know the size. We know it's orbit. We're building a mission. Uh, we're going to launch in 22 to go To go there and go, uh, uh, go orbit it and, and learn about it. But assume this is really a fail core. That body has more value than any other body we currently know, because it, frankly, we cannot get that from the earth. Digging a hole into the earth to where we need to go is actually harder than just going out there and collecting that. And so for me, I think the kind of mining world, uh, that the mining approach to the world is, uh, in, in space is inevitable. I mean, it's something that will matter, uh, for both purposes, again, to survive, but also to, uh, to, you know, …

AI assessment note: “No, I think this is our lifetime kind of issue, the mining calling.”

Q Is there examples where you, you've made that call and it's turned out to be wrong, but you got a good outcome?

A Yeah. Uh, so, so I wanna, I wanna, I I'll talk about two decisions. The first one is, uh, I was one of the first decisions I made. It was a billion dollar assets. It's the Juno mission. I was in orbit or is in orbit around Jupiter. And so we were in an orbit of a 50 day orbit, and we wanted to drop the, fire the engine and drop it down to a 50 day orbit. What that does, um, And I may have to date slightly wrong, but you get the point. I wanted to, to get, uh, I have over a hundred missions. So sometimes I mix updates. I did not want to think we're going to talk about this, but, but anyway, I wanted to kind of increase the frequency of encounters by a factor of three. That that's what I wanted to do. The question was, do we want to do that? So the entire team, uh, look at them from their point of view there. Uh, frankly, perfectly fine in a slow orbit. They say we need 20 flybys. It costs the taxpayer 50 more million dollars. Uh, to just stay where you are. The principal investigator, everybody's like, let's just leave it where we are. There's risk. We want the minimum risk. And I'm like, well, what's the opportunity cost? You're spending 50 more million dollars to do the science. And so what I had to do is, is unentangle that kind of natural inclination, which I understand because I was in his role before, from the actual technical question. Is it, is it, uh, is it important? S…

AI assessment note: “Yeah. Uh, so, so I wanna, I wanna, I I'll talk about two decisions.”

Q Do you think it changes NASA's role at all in terms of risk taking where you can start to take more risks now and when things work out, you can pass that technology to the private sector?

A That's exactly what I want to do. Exactly right. That's exactly what I want to do. I want to focus on the things that Company cannot do it because it's too crazy. It's too risky. So we have done things to, uh, for that, right? Kind of the James Webb space telescope that I just talked about is one of those things. It's not possible to do in a private setting, but at this moment in time, but as we go forward, it may be, uh, but also I have a new program, the commercial lunar payload services program to the moon in which I basically said, I'm bill, I'm buying at firm fixed price delivery services to the moon. Who wants to play? I did that after, you know, I came into NASA and I saw these Google XPRIZE companies that had been focused, you know, being funded by, by, uh, you know, venture capital and other sources, not government sources. I was like, okay, if you have a company that could do that, I want to be a customer. By the way, I don't want to be the only customer, not interested whatsoever to own that industry, but I want to be an anchor customer. And by the way, I'm going to take the risk. So what I did is I talked to every stakeholder, Including those on the hill and say, look, the likelihood of that is not a hundred percent. You should think of it as a 50, 50 shot on goal. So we need to, you know, like hockey, we need to take shots on goal to score. So, so for us, it's kind…

AI assessment note: “That's exactly what I want to do. Exactly right.”

Q Where are you when you make that decision? Are you in a room with other people? Are you alone? Are you walking? Are you running? What are you doing when you actually make that call?

A In many cases, I'm in a room with other people, but if I'm not sure, I will take a break. Uh, and I, I think well when I run, I think well in the shower in the morning. So, I mean, there are kind of points of clarity. If I'm not sure, I will never push into a decision. I mean, I, the way I always go is I go backwards, right? Suppose I'm sitting in the congressional hearing and I just blew up X and Y. Can I explain how I made the decision in a way that it made sense there? Space is hard. And by the way, every once in a while we will fail. And I remind everybody of that. If you want to not fail, you're in that safe space over here. That's irrelevant. That's not how NASA got to where it is. It's not because people splayed it safe. It's because we do take risks. We do leave the launch pad, even though we know it's dangerous. You know, with 1.5 to three percent likelihood, it will not make it out of, out of the Earth's gravity, statistically speaking. So, so we take that risk, right? So just that itself, I will never, one of the things I really believe in is don't, don't get pushed. I, I, if I'm not sure, I don't mind being the only guy who is not comfortable, you know, and, and I will, I will back off. I basically said, uh, Thanks. We're stopping the meeting. I appreciate that. If anybody has anything that is not being said, uh, I will not make a decision for 24 hours. Send it to m…

AI assessment note: “In many cases, I'm in a room with other people, but if I'm not sure”

Q Is there examples where you, you've made that call and it's turned out to be wrong, but you got a good outcome?

A Yeah. Uh, so, so I wanna, I wanna, I, I'll talk about two decisions. The first one is, uh, I was the, one of the first decisions I made is a billion dollar assets. It's the Juno mission. I was in orbit or is in orbit around Jupiter. And so we were in an orbit of a 50 day orbit, and we wanted to drop the, fire the engine and drop it down to a 15 day orbit. What that does, um, And I may have to date slightly wrong, but you get the point. I wanted to, to get, uh, I have over a hundred missions. So sometimes I mix updates. I did not want to think we're going to talk about this, but, but anyway, I wanted to kind of increase the frequency of encounters by a factor of three. That that's what I wanted to do. The question was, do we want to do that? So the entire team, uh, look at them from their point of view. They're, uh, frankly, perfectly fine in a slow orbit. They say we need 20 flybys. It costs the taxpayer 50 more million dollars. Uh, to just stay where you are. The principal investigator, everybody's like, let's just leave it where we are. There's risk. We want the minimum risk. And I'm like, well, what's the opportunity cost? You're spending 50 more million dollars to do the science. And so what I had to do is, is unentangle that kind of natural inclination, which I understand because I was in his role before, from the actual technical question. Is it, is it, uh, is it importan…

AI assessment note: “Yeah. Uh, so, so I wanna, I wanna, I, I'll talk about two decisions.”

Q You, you mentioned that was one of the top, maybe five challenges. What would be other contenders for the top challenges?

A Well, I do believe that, uh, that one of the things we really want to be careful about is to keep Space peaceful. And I think that's, that's something we've been, uh, watching with repudiation. Uh, we've, uh, signed treaties, both in the U S and otherwise, you know, uh, and, uh, we see, and it has been discussed, uh, we see some countries, nation states that are out there that are, you know, really putting in question whether they're serious about, uh, the peaceful utilization of space. And, and it is, It is really worrisome because of course, uh, you know, it, it is, you know, they can use space like, uh, other countries use, they can put telescopes there, observe whoever they want to, their own people or other people, right. They can, they can do that, but they can, uh, by law, right. But they cannot, for example, weaponize space. So, so, so for me, kind of, if you ask me kind of my kind of in low earth orbit, what is my biggest worry right now? It is that, that we take the common good of space that we've You know, over decades we've used that way, you know, in a non-interference basis, uh, uh, you know, with international community. That we take that and move it into a place where this becomes a domain of war almost, or a domain of potential war. And that, you know, I mean, and, and frankly, we're moving at the larger speed than we would like in that direction, unfortunately…

AI assessment note: “one of the things we really want to be careful about is to keep Space peaceful”

Q Where are you when you make that decision? Are you in a room with other people? Are you alone? Are you walking? Are you running? What are you doing when you actually make that call?

A In many cases, I'm in a room with other people, but if I'm not sure, I will take a break. Uh, and I, I think well when I run, I think well in the shower in the morning. So, I mean, there are kind of points of clarity. If I'm not sure, I will never push into a decision. I mean, I, the way I always go is I go backwards, right? Suppose I'm sitting in the congressional hearing and I just blew up X and Y. Can I explain how I made the decision in a way that it made sense there? Space is hard. And by the way, every once in a while we will fail. And I remind everybody of that. If you want to not fail, you're in that safe space over here. That's irrelevant. That's not how NASA got to where it is. It's not because people splayed it safe. It's because we do take risks. We do leave the launch pad, even though we know it's dangerous. You know, with 1.5 to three percent likelihood, it will not make it out of, out of the Earth's gravity, statistically speaking. So, so we take that risk, right? So just that itself, I will never, one of the things I really believe in is don't, don't get pushed. I, I, if I'm not sure, I don't mind being the only guy who is not comfortable, you know, and, and I will, I will back off. I basically said, uh, Thanks. We're stopping the meeting. I appreciate that. If anybody has anything that is not being said, uh, I will not make a decision for 24 hours. Send it to m…

AI assessment note: “In many cases, I'm in a room with other people, but if I'm not sure”

Q You manage one of the largest budgets in the world, let alone science budgets. I think you're seven, eight billion dollars a year. I mean, that tops most S&P, 500 companies, most Dow companies. You're, you're allocating more money into science than probably anybody in the world. I'm curious as to what's the hardest part of that job and why?

A I think the hardest part of research is always to find that edge, right? So kind of, you know, kind of, if you really look at the best research, you know, I think of it like I'm a mountain guy. I think of it as like walking in the mountains on that ridge on the one side, Is the irrelevant. We've already proven it. It's easy to do research there. It's, it's safe. Uh, you know, you get tenure and every professor, you know, is fine doing it kind of twiddling around and you can make a lot of money there. The other side is the impossible, right? Kind of their immigrant of research questions don't only need, frankly, uh, the right question, but the right time for that question. And, and the hardest part is, is to build programs that are programs that have that Push that edge at the maximum speed viable. That requires that you learn how to fail. You're going to every once in a while drop down this way and drop down that way into, you know, and what, what you really have to do, uh, especially the ones that fail because they went too early. You want to protect them. You want to protect your innovators, right? Get off because, because that's important. So for me, the hardest part is really to set the program. Uh, at, at the right speed of innovation, uh, kind of, uh, and allow, uh, for experimentation, for iteration, as opposed to kind of being that colossal kind of, that kind of slow or…

AI assessment note: “the hardest part is really to set the program at the right speed of innovation”

Q Um, can we talk about the Earth's magnetic field and how it shields us from debris? Am I getting that right?

A The Earth's magnetic field, you know, it's, it's, by the way, it's, it's, it's one of those things, if you really ask in detail, we still don't fully understand Uh, why it occurs and kind of the more we know about it, the more it kind of makes us learn. For example, Mercury has a magnetic field. The earth has a magnetic field. Jupiter has a magnetic field. Mars does not have a global, uh, scale magnetic field and neither does Venus. Uh, and so, so we basically, we, we learn from that. Okay. So what does the earth magnetic field do? So what it, what it does, it stands there, you know, like a dipole from north to south. And what it does is the very particles I just talked about, but especially Lower energy particles. The ones that come from the sun, they come into the magnetic field and, and they hit the magnetic field. And whenever they hit the magnetic field, think at the equator, right? When the magnetic fields look like a dipole, it's kind of right over the magnetic field. It turns the particles around. So it, it, if you want it shields, the magnetic field shields the, uh, the inside of the earth, including all the way down here, but also in the space station shields us from Energetic particles, debris, you know, which are dust pieces and kind of, um, you know, some of them human made kind of spacecraft that blew up or, or, you know, that are no longer used or, or, you know, …

AI assessment note: “They're way heavier, so the magnetic field doesn't really have a huge impact on them.”

Q Do you think that's inevitable that it becomes another frontier for say war, for example?

A God, I hope not. Right. I mean, that we've, we've seen in, in history, we've seen cycles in which we, you know, armed ourselves to the teeth. Then we said, this is insane. Uh, let's, let's step back, you know, let's get rid of all these nukes, you know, and, and we have done that with people at times, you know, we were in a cold war with, you know, and so for me, And my hope is we get to a place in which we kind of really say, look, we're going to create lines and we're going to accept those lines. You know, the fact that people say, oh, we're going to do this and that, you know, that's one thing. It's the important thing is that we, you know, if you look at the cold war, we went and checked each other, right. And made sure that we followed the rules.

AI assessment note: “God, I hope not. Right. I mean, that we've, we've seen in, in history”

Q Are there other things to come to mind as like big challenges over the next decade?

A Well, I mean, I think the, the big challenge now in this case, I don't know whether it's a challenge or an opportunity. I mean, I think we're at the verge of really opening space for, for commoners, right? Kind of for my family, your family, right? Kind of to do a trip to space, uh, and kind of utilize it both, uh, As a commercial entity by imaging, uh, the earth, for example, and selling those images, those data, that information, or also as a tourist, uh, destination and so forth. And so for me, uh, we, if we can do that, right, it creates a very different, uh, dynamic in this whole thing. Right. And so for me, you know, that's also decided I would argue in the next 10 years, right? It's kind of, I mean, frankly, it's incredible what has happened in the last 20. Uh, you know, the question is, where are we in the next 20? You know, and so for me, for me, it just, uh, I mean, that, that's another big question. And, you know, if we're, if that is failing, right, that kind of the space is solely the, the domain of, of governments, right, kind of the question we just had about one of my worries, right, it's a totally different discussion than when others are there also, right, in which we basically say, hey, look, this is, uh, you know, just like we do a trip to Paris, Let's do our anniversary trip to space, right? I mean, I, I, and you say, well, that's crazy. No, it is not. That…

AI assessment note: “the big challenge now in this case, I don't know whether it's a challenge”

Q Do you remember what some of those first questions were?

A The most important question really is about Is somebody else watching the other way? I mean, for me, it just, uh, what is there? Just a whole point, right? Going, growing up in that religious environment, I thought a lot about bigger purpose and bigger things like, you know, with the name, the Lord perhaps, or with the name, uh, creation for me, for me, uh, really looking at the stars, the patterns of them, the fact that they're there the next day also, Kind of made me really ask, what is it, how does it actually look, right? And, and what can, you know, what's the relationship of that amazing sky to us here, like to my little self on my back on the roof in that little village? You know, what is that big thing? You start opening up books. Uh, you know, my godfather gave me the first book. It's still in my office, by the way, at NASA, uh, really about, The possibility of exploring those stars and, you know, it just keeps on going and that question becomes more intense.

AI assessment note: “The most important question really is about Is somebody else watching the other way?”

Q You, you mentioned that was one of the top, maybe five challenges. What would be other contenders for the top challenges?

A Well, I do believe that, uh, that one of the things we really want to be careful about is to keep Space peaceful. And I think that's, that's something we've been, uh, watching with repudiation. Uh, we've, uh, signed treaties, both in the U S and otherwise, you know, uh, and, uh, we see, and it has been discussed, uh, we see some countries, nation states that are out there that are, you know, really putting in question whether they're serious about, uh, the peaceful utilization of space. And, and it is, It is really worrisome because of course, uh, you know, it, it is, you know, they can use space like, uh, other countries use, they can put telescopes there, observe whoever they want to, their own people or other people, right. They can, they can do that, but they can, uh, by law, right. But they cannot, for example, weaponize space. So, so, so for me, kind of, if you ask me kind of my kind of in low earth orbit, what is my biggest worry right now? It is that, that we take the common good of space that we've You know, over decades we've used that way, you know, in a non-interference basis, uh, uh, you know, with international community. That we take that and move it into a place where this becomes a domain of war almost, or a domain of potential war. And that, you know, I mean, and, and frankly, we're moving at the larger speed than we would like in that direction, unfortunately…

AI assessment note: “one of the things we really want to be careful about is to keep Space peaceful”

Q Are there other things to come to mind as like big challenges over the next decade?

A Well, I mean, I think the, the big challenge now in this case, I don't know whether it's a challenge or an opportunity. I mean, I think we're at the verge of really opening space for, for commoners, right? Kind of for my family, your family, right? Kind of to do a trip to space, uh, and kind of utilize it both, uh, As a commercial entity by imaging, uh, the earth, for example, and selling those images, those data, that information, or also as a tourist, uh, destination and so forth. And so for me, uh, we, if we can do that, right, it creates a very different, uh, dynamic in this whole thing. Right. And so for me, you know, that's also decided I would argue in the next 10 years, right? It's kind of, I mean, frankly, it's incredible what has happened in the last 20. Uh, you know, the question is, where are we in the next 20? You know, and so for me, for me, it just, uh, I mean, that, that's another big question. And, you know, if we're, if that is failing, right, that kind of the space is solely the, the domain of, of governments, right, kind of the question we just had about one of my worries, right, it's a totally different discussion than when others are there also, right, in which we basically say, hey, look, this is, uh, you know, just like we do a trip to Paris, Let's do our anniversary trip to space, right? I mean, I, I, and you say, well, that's crazy. No, it is not. That…

AI assessment note: “I think the, the big challenge now in this case... opening space for, for commoners”

Q Um, can we talk about the Earth's magnetic field and how it shields us from debris? Am I getting that right?

A The Earth's magnetic field, you know, it's, it's, by the way, it's, it's, it's one of those things, if you really ask in detail, we still don't fully understand Uh, why it occurs and kind of the more we know about it, the more it kind of makes us learn. For example, Mercury has a magnetic field. The earth has a magnetic field. Jupiter has a magnetic field. Mars does not have a global, uh, scale magnetic field and neither does Venus. Uh, and so, so we basically, we, we learn from that. Okay. So what does the earth magnetic field do? So what it, what it does, it stands there, you know, like a dipole from north to south. And what it does is the very particles I just talked about, but especially Lower energy particles. The ones that come from the sun, they come into the magnetic field and, and they hit the magnetic field. And whenever they hit the magnetic field, think at the equator, right? When the magnetic fields look like a dipole, it's kind of right over the magnetic field. It turns the particles around. So it, it, if you want it shields, the magnetic field shields the, uh, the inside of the earth, including all the way down here, but also in the space station shields us from Energetic particles, debris, you know, which are dust pieces and kind of, um, you know, some of them human made kind of spacecraft that blew up or, or, you know, that are no longer used or, or, you know, …

AI assessment note: “They're way heavier, so the magnetic field doesn't really have a huge impact”

Q How does, how does that work in the future in the sense of, we'll see more and more private corporations innovating in space. And I want to come to SpaceX later specifically. Um, but how does that regulatory body work? I mean, ultimately you'll be able to There'll be countries with less regulation and more regulation, and you could locate your business in any of those countries.

A I do believe, you know, back to my top five, this is one of those also, you know, as always, the speed of innovation is the relevant speed on this one, right? And, and the speed of regulation, like so many places, it's just not. Matching the speed of innovation, right? And so, so it's because of that, that I worry, right? It is because of that, that, that, you know, you believe. I mean, it needs to, it needs to be, it can't be A leaky bucket, right? Can't be that kind of, uh, certain countries just pollute the space by whatever means, right? Whether it's, uh, the frequency, the communication piece, or whether it's the orbital debris piece, or whether it's how they're setting their orbits, they need to be part of a common, uh, kind of, uh, community that actually enforces those standards and, and, and holds them. And I think. That kind of commercial, by the way, the commercialization of this is a great story. So for me, especially from the U.S. perspective, that is the goal, right? Our goal is not that in 50 years the government does the same stuff that we did 50 years ago. That's crazy, especially when it's a research entity like NASA. We want to kind of attack the next frontier. We want to, we want to go beyond what's possible today, kind of Increase the box of what's possible, you know, uh, you know, and then, uh, let the commercial entities, uh, deal with that. So for me, th…

AI assessment note: “they need to be part of a common, uh, kind of, uh, community that actually enforces”

Q So with something like Starlink, did they just need US approval or do they need to go around the entire world and get everybody's approval to launch those into space? Like, how does that work?

A It was a U S approval. So the, uh, the, uh, the, the relevant U S entities, uh, both look focused on launch on the frequency, uh, you know, all this stuff, uh, was approved, uh, in, in, in the process that is agreed upon in the United States. So they, they went up there, of course, what happened, you know, is, uh, you know, the element of surprise is always there when you, when you're working with innovation, uh, you know, so they were a lot more bright and, you know, everybody looked at their I imagine myself and Switzerland on top of that. On top of that roof, I would see Starlink, right? I mean, it's like, you can't miss it, right? And, and that, that raises questions that are beyond the regulatory, right? It's gonna, is there a right to a dark sky, right? So it's questions like that, especially as a, as an astrophysicist, like how does that affect the future observation? I just want to tell you, uh, SpaceX and the Starlink team have been nothing but collaborative. They went and faced the astrophysics community. They're actively Darkening their, uh, bodies, right? Kind of their spacecraft. Uh, frankly, it was, people didn't want to do this, right? That's not that, oh, like, I don't care, right? They, it, it's, it's really hard to do some of these calculations the right way. And frankly, sometimes you don't know what the question is you're supposed to ask, right? I mean, who …

AI assessment note: “It was a U S approval.”

Q How do you disseminate what you learn within the organization? Like, how do you share that knowledge?

A That's actually a really good question, and I struggle with it. And basically what happens to me on a given day, I make multiple decisions, right? And, and, and for me, what I've started to do is sit down and talk people through the decision. Kind of, it's almost like, see what I'm seeing. This is what, you know, and really create that rigor in the organization and kind of show where, how the decision path goes, right? I, I, Asking questions out loud and talking through it and, And so that's what I'm sharing in the leadership team. I worry sometimes just because NASA is so hierarchical, right? Kind of, because of the fact that only one signature matters, you know, kind of my schedule is always subscribed by a factor of 10 every, every week, right? So, so I say no a lot more than yes, relative to my time. That's my most impression, most important good, right? So, so for me, the question I'm asking, I'm, I'm spending enough time to actually disseminate things into the organizations because I'm, you know, it would be helpful for them to actually know this is the scrutiny we're putting on it. I try to do it, and I ask people to do it, but I just want to tell you it's a question on my mind that I'm currently thinking about. You know, I just, I'm not, and that reason I'm saying it, it's like I see some of the same mistakes over and over again. It's like, no, no, I don't want, like, f…

AI assessment note: “what I've started to do is sit down and talk people through the decision.”

Q How do you disseminate what you learn within the organization? Like, how do you share that knowledge?

A That's actually a really good question, and I struggle with it. And basically what happens to me on a given day, I make multiple decisions, right? And, and, and for me, what I've started to do is sit down and talk people through the decision. Kind of, it's almost like, see what I'm seeing. This is what, you know, and really create that rigor in the organization and kind of show where, how the decision path goes, right? I, I, Asking questions out loud and talking through it and, And so that's what I'm sharing in the leadership team. I worry sometimes just because NASA is so hierarchical, right? Kind of, because of the fact that only one signature matters, you know, kind of my schedule is always subscribed by a factor of 10 every, every week, right? So, so I say no a lot more than yes, relative to my time. That's my most impression, most important good, right? So, so for me, the question I'm asking, I'm, I'm spending enough time to actually disseminate things into the organizations because I'm, you know, it would be helpful for them to actually know this is the scrutiny we're putting on it. I try to do it, and I ask people to do it, but I just want to tell you it's a question on my mind that I'm currently thinking about. You know, I just, I'm not, and that reason I'm saying it, it's like I see some of the same mistakes over and over again. It's like, no, no, I don't want, like, f…

AI assessment note: “what I've started to do is sit down and talk people through the decision.”

Q How does, how does that work in the future in the sense of, we'll see more and more private corporations innovating in space. And I want to come to SpaceX later specifically. Um, but how does that regulatory body work? I mean, ultimately you'll be able to There'll be countries with less regulation and more regulation, and you could locate your business in any of those countries.

A I do believe, you know, back to my top five, this is one of those also, you know, as always, the speed of innovation is the relevant speed on this one, right? And, and the speed of regulation, like so many places, it's just not. Matching the speed of innovation, right? And so, so it's because of that, that I worry, right? It is because of that, that, that, you know, you believe. I mean, it needs to, it needs to be, it can't be A leaky bucket, right? Can't be that kind of, uh, certain countries just pollute the space by whatever means, right? Whether it's, uh, the frequency, the communication piece, or whether it's the orbital debris piece, or whether it's how they're setting their orbits, they need to be part of a common, uh, kind of, uh, community that actually enforces those standards and, and, and holds them. And I think. That kind of commercial, by the way, the commercialization of this is a great story. So for me, especially from the U.S. perspective, that is the goal, right? Our goal is not that in 50 years the government does the same stuff that we did 50 years ago. That's crazy, especially when it's a research entity like NASA. We want to kind of attack the next frontier. We want to, we want to go beyond what's possible today, kind of Increase the box of what's possible, you know, uh, you know, and then, uh, let the commercial entities, uh, deal with that. So for me, th…

AI assessment note: “they need to be part of a common, uh, kind of, uh, community that actually enforces”

Q Are there specific examples of things we've learned about the immune system or sleep from space that we can apply on Earth?

A There are, uh, lessons about, uh, sleep, about the immune system. I'm not sure whether any of them kind of is in the knockout form in which I could just basically say, well, uh, this is, you know, this is what, uh, what we know. We know, for example, the various levels of sleep, right? Kind of the, the, uh, astronauts just like here are kind of, Being observed constantly. They're wired. You know, the way it's in the movies is the way it happens, right? Kind of our, uh, we make sure that the astronauts are healthy and we are, You know, like how we, they're sleeping, you know, kind of the depth of sleep. You know, I mean, I talked to a number of the astronauts, very easy to, to just recognize, Hey, this is a really different, uh, life and it's hard. It's, you know, I mean, give you one example, you close your eyes, you see flashes going through your eyes. Why? Because cosmic rays, you know, they come from the deep galaxy, uh, from exploding stars. They're out there. Most of them never come to the ground because between You know, if you take a square centimeter and go all the way to space, there's a kilogram of air Per square centimeter that shields us, right? So, so we're very radiation shielded. Well, if you're in a space station, that is not the case, right? Because you're on top of the air. So basically what now happens is that radiation goes through your body. And, and, you k…

AI assessment note: “I'm not sure whether any of them kind of is in the knockout form”