The Exchanges

Q And then you take this information and then you have tough, I would imagine somewhat tough conversations with some of these people and you talk about caring deeply and challenging directly and what does that mean and how does it relate to hard conversations?

A Yeah, in the basis of Radical Candor, a book that's often taken pretty out of context because they're like, you know, I'm being candid, I'm being radically candid, um, but that you really do have to, the basis of it is you have to care deeply to be able to challenge directly, and that somebody has to know that you care deeply about who they are in their role, that you care about their performance, that this is coming from a place that's meant to make them better, right? And if it's not coming from that place, And it's coming from a place of punishing or shaming or, you know, humiliating or dominating. It's not a really effective thing to do. It's a, it's a counterproductive thing to do that will work against you. But people can take hard feedback from people that they know are in their corner. And so, you know, it's kind of like, and it was this really silly analogy, but I'll use it anyway. But it's like, if you went to go try on jeans, you don't want the friend who tells you, you look great in every pair of jeans. You want the person who's like, Wow. You definitely should not buy those.

AI assessment note: “the basis of it is you have to care deeply to be able to challenge directly”

Q Aside from being intentional and maybe, um, about the words you're using and the place you're coming from, right? The place of pulling people forward and being better. What are the other tips that you could give people for preparing for hard conversations in advance to put themselves in a position to have the most effective conversation possible?

A Sure. I think that one of the best frameworks people can use, and I think people, um, don't use Don't have hard conversations because they see them as being a conflict, right? It's going to be me versus you, and it's going to be a conflict. So what I try to do is to say, rather than let's just say Ted is his, uh, the marketing department is missing its numbers. I don't want to say when Ted comes in, Ted, you're missing your numbers, right? Like what's going on. Um, I want us to, instead of being me versus you, I want to pull him to my side and be like, Hey, this is us versus a problem. You can do this at home. You could do it at work. You could do it anywhere. And to be able to say, hey, Ted, I noticed that, you know, our numbers are, we're kind of missing here in the marketing department. Can we, like, let's do some problem solving around how we can really pull these up So it's a we, you know, you're, you're intentionally pulling someone to your side. You're forming a collaboration against the problem. So rather than me, and then you are the problem, it is, I'm pulling you to my side of the table, and it's us together versus this problem that we're going to talk about, and it is, um, it's incredibly effective because it reduces defensiveness, it creates openness, it makes you more approachable, and you can have really hard conversations in that way, and I can do that With peop…

AI assessment note: “instead of being me versus you, I want to pull him to my side”

Q From episode one 69, Julie Gerner. How do you shift that mindset where circumstances, uh, sort of like when you feel you're a victim, I mean, effectively you're a victim to circumstance. You feel like you have no control and you're powerless and there's nothing you can do. What would you say to, to somebody like that?

A That's a really great question. I think that there are two ways of looking at, at victim, uh, things that have happened to you. You know, you can be a victim, or you can be a survivor, and those are two very different cognitive positions. You know, you can't control what happens to you in either circumstance, but one is very powerful. Um, you have overcome. One is, you know, you have had something happen to you, and you are, you Under that thing for quite some period of time. So for me, if I hear someone and I, I hear that kind of helplessness, um, one is that I never, I want to reframe that experience. I want to tell a different story. I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that. Um, and in some ways you want them to rewrite that narrative to survivorship and overcoming and what it took, and you ask the right questions to get them to see, um, you know, that their own Through way, in that case, is based on their strength and ability, and you want them to see those things rather than seeing the, the kind of helplessness and powerlessness. It's the reason why oftentimes, you know, like people engage with me and they think we're going to go back in time and talk about their, I don't know, inner child or something, um, but I am, I am someone who's going to start with who you are today, because going back to the past is not really useful unle…

AI assessment note: “I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that.”

Q of themselves and others for relationships, sort of for everything. It's like the bar is raised and, and The, this can cause problems when they expect it from other people too, because I think they tend to expect it from themselves. And then because they expect it from themselves, they expect it from other people. I mean, what's your take on the standards and bars that people set for excellence?

A I think that it is a primary pain point for a lot of the people that I work with that they are frustrated endlessly that people do not in their companies hold the same standards that they do. They put it as a point of culture. They have, you know, KPIs and other types of things that should be measuring it. But there's always this kind of deep brewing frustration that they're not as engaged, as obsessed as any of those things as they are. And the truth of it is they're not going to be. Most of the time. But can they hit a bar that is 80% of what your expectation might be? And is that going to be enough? And I think for some people, they're just still going to carry that frustration, and for other people, they're going to recognize that, hey, if people can give to this certain extent, it takes it off my plate, it takes, it still pushes the business forward, and it will, it is productive, because most people won't even meet that bar.

AI assessment note: “I think that it is a primary pain point for a lot of the people”

Q So one of the byproducts of this that I want to get into, and you have a great sort of analogy for this in terms of the driver, not the car, is when you care deeply, you can also become attached to things and take things personally. So how do we get out of that?

A I think that it's very useful to see business or things that you care deeply about are the things that you do, not who you are. And I think it actually gives you an increased level of competence when you're able to do that, because you're able to, when you're emotionally too attached to things, it skews your decision-making. It skews how you invest in it. Um, and I, And your investments you make with it, right? Like you're, you're more tender in some ways with things that are precious to you. Uh, and not that you don't want it to be precious, but if it's too close to you, it's going to change how you operate. And it's not going to give you the greatest objectivity that you're going to need to make the best decisions. So I see it as, you know, that detachment is actually very essential to making optimum decisions around that Element. Otherwise, you know, you start, you do start getting too precious about, you know, the business and people, how people talk about the business. If there's like, maybe there's genuine criticisms of your business that are pretty valid, and it can shield you from seeing some of those things. You could be taking it personally, and when it's really about an operational issue with the company that you run, um, you could be missing problems because you refuse to see it, things in a certain way. So there are, uh, I think that there are secondary impacts tha…

AI assessment note: “useful to see business or things that you care deeply about are the things that you do”

Q Talk to me a little bit about those blind spots. Like how do we learn to see our blind spots? How do we learn to see reality better? Uh, given the backdrop of sort of like being obsessed with what you're doing and all in, and then the tendency to associate yourself with the business or, or instead of you as a person.

A Yeah. I think that you have to go outside of yourself sometimes and be open. So sometimes I'll do things like three sixties for people where, you know, they'll trust me to speak with eight to Of their employees. Usually I'll, I'll do mostly direct reports, some skip levels, some people who have never worked with them at all, so that I, I hear what people kind of, the whisper network is, and what their reputation is. Sometimes board members, so I want to know people who are above them, below them, uh, various, um, people in their ecosystem. And I guarantee them anonymity, right? Like, no one's going to get this feedback. I'm going to ask you a bunch of questions about this person, how they communicate, how they lead, where their areas are. And the amount of information you get with anonymity is, it's amazing, right? Like, I mean, the reports are, like, 13 pages long. It's, it's a, it's incredible because, you know, for the first time, they feel like they're free to give absolutely, um, and, you know, and I ask the person to make sure you set the stage where you want honest feedback and all that stuff. Um, but, you know, for the first time, they're really able to say, well, this is where I see that, like, we could be so much better. Or this is where I see that, like, oh, we're really missing the boat because, you know, we change course too often. Like, you know, the CEO really ha…

AI assessment note: “I think that you have to go outside of yourself sometimes and be open.”

Q I think it's sort of easy to see, uh, the extremes, right? When somebody is, uh, in your life and, you know, it's, it shouldn't be there, but what are sort of like the red flags to look for as a lead up before it gets to that point that you see in relationships, be it with friends or, or family or even, uh, you know, a partner or spouse?

A I think people who violate the boundaries that you set are a big one, right? Like, hey, I really need to work on this project tonight, and you tell that to your friends, or you tell that to others, and they're like, hey, do you want to go out? Do you want to do this? Oh, can you wait? Can the project be pushed back? Can they do this or that? Um, you know, that to me is a flag. People who don't respect what you set up to begin with. Um, people who are not actively, who are not supportive are sometimes a flag. You know, it's one thing to ask smart questions. It's another thing to, Kind of reduce you in any way, but I think one of the biggest ways that I think about it is how do you feel after your interactions with them? Do you feel energized? Do you feel engaged? Do you feel motivated? Or do you feel beaten down? Do you feel uncertain? Do you feel insecure? Do you feel like any of those negative things? So I think there, I think your energy is probably the best flag, and it isn't always about something specific. So if you leave those interactions and You know, you find yourself not feeling great. Um, to me, that's the, always the first flag. And then do you notice there's a pattern that like every time you talk to this person, you have that same like sap of energy and it's like a vampire of sorts. And, you know, you don't feel like energized and positive and optimistic and whate…

AI assessment note: “people who violate the boundaries that you set are a big one”

Q And where does that fire come from? It seems like a lot of outliers have a chip on their shoulder, if you will.

A It's, it's interesting because there's a lot of people who talk about that chip, and there's a lot of controversy I think I've read around, you know, should you be using these negative things to fuel you? And, you know, I'm a big fan of using negative drivers as well as positive drivers. I think if you have deep rage, deep anger, deep resentment, um, it's how you channel that that will make it beneficial or detrimental. I mean, those things can be absolutely destructive, and people can, Really kind of, you know, burn their own homes down with that kind of energy, but channeled properly, that energy is also a force to be reckoned with, and so I think that that chip on your shoulder Can be a real motivational pull for a lot of people, because there's nothing that they will ever reach that will fully prove it wrong, right? I mean, so that becomes that endless source, you know, that your third grade teacher told you you'd never amount to much, and now you have, you know, you, fifty million bucks in the bank, but that's still not enough. I'm gonna still show her, right? Like, I'm still going to push that forward, and it isn't so much about her, but proving it to yourself, um, and that's when it really becomes, um, Quite a motivator, and if you talk to people, you'll still hear these kind of echoes, as you've said, of people who have chips on their shoulders, and they're still runnin…

AI assessment note: “I think if you have deep rage, deep anger, deep resentment”

Q And these tend to create like this doom loop, right? The less you sleep, the worse decisions you make, the worse you eat, the more unhealthy you are. I'm curious as to what you think of as the other foundations in life and what you've learned about these pillars and how you integrate them. Is it more of a balance or a mosaic or how do you think about this?

A I think about it as that if you have only one leg of a stool, it's easy to kick out, right? So, like, if you say, hey, everything that I am is my business, and you put your identity in that, it's when your business does poorly or it collapses, it just, it shakes you. If you have multiple legs of that stool, you're much more stable, and so I do think about creating stability and multiple prongs of Success and multiple prongs of grounding in people's lives as foundation. So for example, like if your relationship is, is, is, um, very conflictual or high conflict, that's going to eat into your headspace in your work. So take care of that, like make it a priority and be good about it. If you're going to invest in that, I mean, there are some people who will say, look, maybe this isn't the right time for you to be in a relationship at all. That's fine. Uh, but have some stability in that and know who you are in that space. And take care of it. Um, if you're going to be somebody who, you know, in other foundational items, as you've mentioned, like with sleep and eating and nutrition and all of those things, you know, be good enough that it provides a level of, of stability and foundational elements. I think about medical needs too. I'll have people who will put off like a nagging shoulder pain for like, you know, oh, I don't want to address this now as physical therapy. Oh my God. You…

AI assessment note: “I think about it as that if you have only one leg of a stool”

Q So given that backdrop of sort of confidence and all that we've just talked about, how do we learn to take risks?

A I think that we learn to take risks and I would, I would have anyone who is hesitant around that to take risks in low stakes places first, right? Like go sign up for a five K if you've never run a race and you are physically capable of doing it and sign up for a five K in like five months, which gives you a lot of time. Download the, you know, couch to five K app, not affiliated with them in any way, and just say, I'm gonna try to do something here. Like, I'm gonna give it a shot. And nobody has to know. It's not about your work. There's no kind of public anything about it. It's just you and you, and do something small for yourself, and like, nail it. And I think that if you can do small things, even if it's just smaller than that, right? But, you know, challenge yourself to build something in your garage. Challenge yourself to be able to lift a certain amount of weight. Uh, challenge yourself in some small way where you're gonna take a risk and go outside of yourself. It translates, and what you start to notice is that when you start having some wins outside, you will start to pull that mindset in your work and your business, and you know, you get a little bit of a swagger to you that I think is really healthy.

AI assessment note: “take risks in low stakes places first, right? Like go sign up for a five K”

Q I want to come back to drive again. There's two sort of like subcategories of this I want to get into. I think the first one is do people sort of like have drive and then reach a certain level and become complacent?

A I don't see that in the people that I work with, but I, I imagine maybe it's out there. I haven't, I have not seen that. So, I mean, I think that the challenge with the people that I've worked with is that, you know, they'll reach a certain point and, and I see this perhaps with people who get these large offers and they turn them down, right? They think I'm capable of more. I think one of the primary reasons that people engage with me to begin with is that, you know, deep down, They feel just like probably anyone else sitting in your audience probably feels like, hey, I'm capable of more than where I'm at. And so, you know, they're on a mission to really actualize that drive. And when they reach a certain point, you know, their companies are large, their, their state of affairs is fairly envious. I don't think that that goes away. And, you know, it currently, I even have someone that I, I work with, um, and it's like a very large kind of family business. And the gentleman who is a chairperson is, I want to say he's in his mid-seventies or so, and man, that guy, uh, is hungry as ever, even though he's just advising, and he's, but he is engaged, and you see that with Warren Buffett, and you see it with others, like, they just kind of don't lose that, and that's where I see, you know, when you talk about motivation, that's a pull that just, it is an endless source of fuel, and th…

AI assessment note: “I don't see that in the people that I work with”

Q There's so many things in that response that we're going to talk about later in this show, including fighting up front and the standards you set for yourself and the people you allow around you. Before we get into that, I want to ground people in sort of imaginary rules, if you will. What are they, and how do they work, and how do they get in our way?

A I, the thing about imaginary rules that I think are really interesting is that, you know, we're all raised with rules, and some of those rules are great, right? They teach us to be well-mannered, and not to get arrested, and how to operate in society, and all of those things, and I think those are fantastic. But we are also simultaneously ingesting other rules that are unspoken, and that are really unsubstantiated, right? Like, what is possible for us? Um, you know, what are the things that we can do? What are we capable of? You know, what are we capable of earning or doing or creating? Um, and I think that those things are ingested and we don't talk about them. And then we end up becoming, uh, kind of, we're raised in ecosystem, like echo chambers and, and kind of little systems of operation that are reinforcing these rules all the time. The rules that we don't challenge, the rules we don't talk about. And, um, You know, unless you find a way to expand beyond yourself, and the internet makes that wonderful, by the way, but, you know, unless you find ways to expand beyond yourself, these imaginary rules that you carry around often keep you very small, because you will limit what you feel you can do. You will limit how much you feel you can earn. You will limit what you feel you're capable of, because you've never seen it, and also because other people have reinforced it. You kn…

AI assessment note: “we are also simultaneously ingesting other rules that are unspoken, and that are really unsubstantiated”

Q It seems like the people who are great at anything are obsessed with it and they have this innate drive. And I want to relate that to motivation because it seems when hiring, a lot of people talk or think that they can motivate other people. What's your take on that?

A Oh, that's such a good question. I think that internal drive is something you can't teach. Uh, and I'm very, you know, perhaps that goes against current wisdom. I do think that as long as someone has that internal hunger and that internal drive, you know, there was a, there's an old saying that you should hire people who are PhDs, poor, hungry, and driven. And while that may not always be the case, I think the internal drive aspect is something that You really can't teach. I think you've got it or you don't. And I think that for other people, however, like, can you tap into that? Absolutely. So for example, you can have an incredibly internally motivated person who doesn't see the opportunity to really flex at the particular job that they have. And can you motivate that person and engage them with things that tap into their internal drivers? Absolutely. So knowing that person really well You know, in your one-to-ones figuring out what is this person's goals? What are their drivers? What are the things they want? And being able to tie your work and your opportunity to those things, I think can really pull people. I think it can get them really engaged, but you have to have kind of this baseline internal hunger to start with. So that's kind of how I conceptualize that.

AI assessment note: “I think that internal drive is something you can't teach.”

Q From episode one 69, Julie Gerner. How do you shift that mindset where circumstances, uh, sort of like when you feel you're a victim, I mean, effectively you're a victim to circumstance. You feel like you have no control and you're powerless and there's nothing you can do. What would you say to, to somebody like that?

A That's a really great question. I think that there are two ways of looking at, at victim, uh, things that have happened to you. You know, you can be a victim, or you can be a survivor, and those are two very different cognitive positions. You know, you can't control what happens to you in either circumstance, but one is very powerful. Um, you have overcome. One is, you know, you have had something happen to you, and you are, you Under that thing for quite some period of time. So for me, if I hear someone and I, I hear that kind of helplessness, um, one is that I never, I want to reframe that experience. I want to tell a different story. I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that. Um, and in some ways you want them to rewrite that narrative to survivorship and overcoming and what it took, and you ask the right questions to get them to see, um, you know, that their own Through way, in that case, is based on their strength and ability, and you want them to see those things rather than seeing the, the kind of helplessness and powerlessness. It's the reason why oftentimes, you know, like people engage with me and they think we're going to go back in time and talk about their, I don't know, inner child or something, um, but I am, I am someone who's going to start with who you are today, because going back to the past is not really useful unle…

AI assessment note: “I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that.”

Q How do you shift that mindset where circumstances, uh, sort of like when you feel you're a victim, I mean, effectively you're a victim to circumstance. You feel like you have no control and you're powerless and there's nothing you can do. What would you say to, to somebody like that?

A That's a really great question. I think that there are two ways of looking at, at victim, uh, things that have happened to you. You know, you can be a victim, or you can be a survivor, and those are two very different cognitive positions. You know, you can't control what happens to you in either circumstance, but one is very powerful. Um, you have overcome. One is, you know, you have had something happen to you, and you are under that thing for quite some period of time. So for me, if I hear someone and I, I hear that kind of helplessness, um, one is that I never, I want to reframe that experience. I want to tell a different story. I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that. Um, and in some ways you want them to rewrite that narrative to survivorship and overcoming and what it took, and you ask the right questions to get them to see, um, you know, that their own through way, um, In that case, is based on their strength and ability, and you want them to see those things rather than seeing the, the kind of helplessness and powerlessness. It's the reason why oftentimes, you know, like people engage with me and they think we're going to go back in time and talk about their, I don't know, inner child or something, um, but I am, I am someone who's going to start with who you are today, because going back to the past is not really useful unles…

AI assessment note: “I want them to tell a different narrative to themselves. I want them to rewrite that.”

Q I, I think confidence comes from how we talk to ourself. Would you sort of agree with that?

A I would. I think that, that it definitely comes from how we speak to ourselves, uh, but also just how we think about ourselves as, and, and those are two distinct things, right? Like how we, how we talk to ourselves, how we think about ourselves, um, how we conceptualize ourselves, who we see ourselves being in the larger space, um, And I think that that is a really important thing, and, and it's also why I, I really dislike sometimes when people will say, you know, like, never forget where you come from, right? Like, yeah, I mean, I guess there's some value, but like, if you're evolving, you shouldn't be the same. So someone's saying, oh, you've changed, yes, consider that a compliment, right? Like, you want to change, you want to be different, you want to grow, and I always feel like when people say things like, don't forget where you come from, sometimes it's a way of saying, well, you know, Remember, you're not that great, right? Like, remember that you're still that person from X. Um, so I do think that sometimes, you know, if you, if you're ever on Twitter, it's, what's really fascinating is that you put something big and bold out there, you'll always get people underneath. You get a lot of cheering folks, but you'll get people underneath who will try to, like, set you straight, right, uh, of why things won't work, why things won't happen, and I always, like, every time I…

AI assessment note: “I would. I think that, that it definitely comes from how we speak to ourselves”

Q What are the common sort of patterns at the risk of generalizing common patterns that you see in sort of outliers that you deal with?

A I love when I deal with people who are outliers because they are resolutely like themselves. I think that they tend to be very quirky people, uh, as individuals, and I think it almost is a forcing function to pushing them where they end up going, right? Like if, if you're somebody who easily, I often wonder, and this is just my own theory, right? Like if you're somebody who easily fits in the crowd and you're somebody who's very much like the people, I think it's easy to, uh, kind of tampen other areas of your life to be a part of those people, and to be a part of those communities, and to be socializing, and doing all those things, and these are often people who are a little quirky, and, um, maybe aren't the most popular person in high school, uh, but they are all smart, and they are all, um, you know, really focused. Um, they have an ability to like Risk, and they like winning, and it's, ah, they enjoy it, right? Like, they enjoy setting up things that they can win at, and I think they don't really care much about what other people think about how they operate. I also think they're people who make really big bets and are willing to take really big losses. A guy who's gonna spend, you know, eight million bucks on a machine And then buy a few anticipating that, you know, his company's going to catch up. Those are big bets. Uh, you know, people who are, you know, deciding that t…

AI assessment note: “they're people who make really big bets and are willing to take really big losses”

Q One of the things that we talked about earlier, uh, that I said we'd come back to is fighting up front. What, what does it mean to fight up front, and how do we do it?

A So when I first, uh, was in grad school, my area of specialization was adult psychopathology and forensics, so I worked a long, a long time in forensics, whether it was, ah, a bit in forensics, I should say, whether it was in, like, you know, maximum security setting or evaluating people for, like, you know, mental stay at the time of the offense to set up the insanity defense or mental time, mental stay at the time of the crime, um, setting up for the insanity defense. So one of the things in forensics that they tell you, you know, just a good rule of thumb is that, hey, if you're ever walking along and, you know, somebody tries to kidnap you, pull you into a van or a truck or a car or whatever, your best chance is if you fight up front, right? Like this is the chance you have because once you go into that vehicle, wherever you are taken, uh, wherever that secondary location is, you don't know what's going to happen and it will be worse.

AI assessment note: “somebody tries to kidnap you... your best chance is if you fight up front”

Q Do you rehearse these conversations in your head before you have them? What's your process like leading into a conversation that you know is going to be contentious or difficult, not only for you, but ensuring that you get the right messages across?

A So that's a really good question. I do always think with intention about how I'm going to present certain information, uh, because I know the capacity it has to either, like, I don't want to, I don't want to kick someone around where they're going to, uh, be harmed by it. I don't want to impact them in any negative way if I can help it. I want them to see it as an opportunity or a challenge, and so how I position things is always very intentional, and the language I use is always very intentional. So I don't want, you'll, I guess I was going to say you'll notice in my notes, but you don't receive my notes. So, um, if you were to ever read my notes, I always take notes during the meeting so people can fully engage. Um, but if you were to ever read the notes that I send to clients, uh, you know, after we meet, I always send them notes afterward for them to review. Um, because there are always things that they're working on and how I position things in language are always going to be from a place of strength. They're never going to be like, you know, um, the words that I choose are going to be very deliberate, and the reason why is because I think that, like, if you're, if peppered throughout your feedback is, you know, weak, falling down, ineffective, uh, this, that, and the other, You're kind of setting them in a framework that is, um, not only feels very disempowering, but also…

AI assessment note: “I do always think with intention about how I'm going to present certain information”

Q I, I, I wonder in those cases, uh, You know, in the moment, we're not thinking in the future, but I wonder what the hindsight is in 20 years for, for people who choose that, right? If, if they feel like that trade-off was worth it, if they consciously even made that trade-off, right? Versus unconsciously making that trade-off.

A I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, the whole notion of regret minimization, I think, hits us when we're already at the point where we're, we're regretting. Um, but I would hope that people are thinking about those types of things. You know, there was a guy that, um, I was able to speak with in the past at some point, and he said he'd always bring a note card with him, and he would write on that note card, you know, how am I going to be the best, like, one thing I can do to be the best, like, Husband today, dad today, CEO today, and he just, like, had one thing that, like, you know, and maybe it was something really stupid for his kids, like, he's gonna swing by the store and bring home some candy, or he's going to, like, take everyone out for ice cream after, or maybe he's just watching a movie or playing a video game with them. With his wife, maybe it was just like, hey, I'm gonna make sure that I'm, you know, affectionate, or I'm going to do something, you know, whatever it is. But he would always have one intentional thing, and I always thought that was really interesting, that he had something to make it intentional, To be better in multiple spheres of his life. Um, you know, you're not going to hit a hundred all the time, but it was still a really nice, I think, uh, way of moving forward.

AI assessment note: “I don't know. That's a really good question. I mean, the whole notion of regret”

Q it's, uh, or self-sabotaging behavior. And then they explain it away with, well, that's because of this when I was a child and it, You know, I'm always listening to this, and I never comment, but in my head, I'm going, but you're an adult now, right? Like, at some point, you take control over your, your response, and awareness of it is not the same as doing something better.

A So this is, this is really fascinating to me too, and I, I love hearing things like that when they come up, because they're such clear, like, flags, and clearly they are for you as well. Like, you hear that, and you're like, oh, this is a problem, right? I mean, immediately. So I think about it like this. You could be sitting, and this is the example that I always think about, because it pulls people away from some of the more emotional stuff, but you could be sitting in traffic, and we've all sat in traffic, right? I mean, traffic as long as the eye can see. And there will be some people you'll look out and there'll be like beeping and dodging and, you know, like they're all over the place. And you can surmise how that person must be thinking, right? I mean, it's just like never going to get there. Can't believe this is happening. Like we could anticipate that these are coming from strong thought patterns and emotional places. But if you look to your right, I mean, there's probably also some guy or girl listening to a podcast, texting someone, windows are down, look as relaxed as could be. And so some people are going to say, you know, when you get home, like, why are you so upset? Oh, it's the traffic. The traffic makes me nuts, right?

AI assessment note: “Oh, it's the traffic. The traffic makes me nuts, right?”

Q I want to ask in all of your work, what have you learned from people that you've applied in your life that's made a difference to the quality of your life?

A Of the clients, I think that they challenge me always to think bigger than I do. Uh, I think that there's always a different level that I'm unaware exists, and so it, it opens, I mean, it certainly opens my range in how I think about things, when every single day, you know, I don't have, I have two or three clients I'll meet with every day, and then I'll have like corporations and do some corporate contracts, but You know, when you work with people who are operating at a certain level, you know, some of my clients are working, you know, a couple 100,000 dollars, you know, they're making, some are running billion dollar companies, and some have built, you know, companies that are worth quite a bit, and you see kind of like, you know, how they live their lives, and how they think about their work, and how they think about their business, and how they think about risk, and it certainly makes me think like, You know, I need to continue to expand and challenge myself, um, so that I'm, you know, bigger, able to reach more, able to do more, um, and continuing to, you know, expand and grow and challenge myself. It's exciting. I'd love to hear kind of how they think about some of these elements while I'm helping them on other specific other elements, um, because it's, um, you know, it, I think our exposure is important.

AI assessment note: “I think that they challenge me always to think bigger than I do.”

Q Let's talk about the notion of cognitive ruts. People sort of get ingrained into thinking and responding and seeing the world a certain way. It's often shaped and reinforced by years of patterns and this can hold them back. How do we recognize that we're thinking this way and we're in a rut and overcome that?

A Sure. I think that people will start bumping up against themselves because they are the greatest, like, if you are the greatest driver, uh, of where you end up, you're the greatest, uh, kind of engine to your business in your world and in your relationships, um, then you also are also, you are also the greatest limiter, right? So if you start, whether it's with these imaginary rules or with how you think about things or how you think about yourself, um, You know, people get into, you know, years and years of thinking about things in the same way. They'll think about, you know, what they're capable of, what they can do, uh, whether they're able to have these hard conversations. Um, they'll just over and over and over again, they tell themselves the same message. And so I think about it almost like a rut, because they can't see any other way. Like, they literally can't see any other way of operating. And so they're just, they're in this tunnel, they're in this rut, and And they're just going to think about things the same way. And at a high level, people do this too, right? Like at a very high level of operation, people don't see any other way of operating, but how the style that they use today. And so, you know, the goal really is if you feel yourself bumping against yourself and you say, Hey, like, I don't understand like why X person is doing something and I'm not, or why they…

AI assessment note: “if you feel yourself bumping against yourself... Look at how you think”