The Exchanges

Q The honest truth about dishonesty was one of my favorite books. How did that come about?

A Um, so, so it started with, with, uh, First of all, thanks for the compliment. Um, I, I hope you didn't say it, uh, dishonestly. Um, so, so it started like many other things with the personal observation on my own, and I was in a flight, and they had the Mensa test. And, you know, I looked at, I don't know, question one, and I kind of thought I knew what the answer was, and I flipped to page one 37 to see what the answer was. And I caught myself that I wasn't just looking at the answer to the question I solved, I looked to the answer for the next question. And then when I got to the next question, I really solved it very easily. And at the end of this, at the end of this process, I proved to myself that I was very smart, but I also realized I probably cheated myself.

AI assessment note: “it started like many other things with the personal observation on my own”

Q What's your take on the field of evolutionary psychology, the group of ideas that try to drive an evolutionary understanding of why we do the things that we do and think the things that we think? Has it been illuminating to you?

A So, so I think the answer is absolutely yes. I think, you know, there's, there's no question that, you know, we've evolved. There's a lot of questions. Biology plays a big part in our Uh, psychology and our behavior and our drives. Um, so I think it's incredibly interesting and incredibly important. The, the challenge is that some of the things are just really hard to study from an evolutionary psychology perspective, right? So we can, we can speculate, but you know, for, for finches, Darwin had 16 types. So he had a whole range of them and you could evaluate them. If you look at the ratio between, I don't know what testicle size and promiscuity, there's lots of animals. You can, you can look at a lot, a lot of them, but when you look at behaviors that are uniquely human, um, we just don't have that variance. We just don't have the range. So it's much, much harder to, uh, to, to, to make any point in a satisfactory way. So I would say that Some of it is very convincing. Some of it is a really interesting source for hypothesis and ideas, but in science, it doesn't always excite me.

AI assessment note: “So, so I think the answer is absolutely yes.”

Q How replicable are the behavioral economics studies, uh, in general? Do they transfer across time? Um, and do they transfer across countries, across cultures?

A So, so depends, depends what and depends how basic the finding is. Um, so, so for example, if you think about visual illusion as a metaphor, visual illusions basically are the same everywhere, right? Uh, if you see the ponzo illusion or the illusion with the circles surrounded by small circles or large circles, it doesn't matter how old you are, how young you are, where you are from. It's that's, that's, that's, that's the illusion you would get. And some, and some decision making are like that. For example, the power of relativity, right? If you have a cup of, of, of coffee next to a bigger cup of coffee, people would, would value the smaller one is less valuable when it's next to a big one compared to when it's next to a small one. We, we just are comparative creatures inherently and we do it, we do it everywhere. That things become more sensitive in culture as we get to more complex behaviors. So when you get the, uh, you get to questions like how happy people are in their marriage, right? That's, that's a very, very culturally influenced, uh, question. Or how much do people, uh, want to give to charity, right? That of course has a very big, uh, Cultural component of how much you care about your culture or not. I will tell you that, uh, most of my, um, research is not cross cultural. Uh, but I did do some of my research on dishonesty. I did it cross culturally. And, uh, my r…

AI assessment note: “depends what and depends how basic the finding is”

Q That makes a lot of sense. Um, can we go back to the, the notion of behavioral economics? Like, what is a behavioral economist?

A So, so the, the, the thing that maybe the easiest way to think about is in contrast with standard economics. So standard economics is a study, an area of study that assumes that people are perfectly rational, right? People always know what's the right thing. People examine all the options. People have no emotions. They all always, always, always made the right decision and so on. And, and that's a, um, you know, it's a beautiful perspective on human life, right? It's wonderful to wake up in the morning and say, oh my goodness, people are just wonderful. People are always making the right decision. That's so exciting. That's so wonderful. Um, behavioral economics, it doesn't assume that people make the right decision. It's more of a, of a science that doesn't start with assumption. Instead in behavioral economics, you say, let's just put people in different situation and let's see what people do. And some people behave rationally, but often they behave irrationally. And, and now there's a question of what do you do with this data? So one of the unique things about economics as a social science is that it's not just a descriptive study. It's a prescriptive study. Economists don't just tell us here is how the world, here's how people behave. They also say, and here's how we should create economic system, hospitals, education systems, and so on. And if you assume that people are ra…

AI assessment note: “behavioral economics, it doesn't assume that people make the right decision.”

Q Nobody has the guts to do it. What would you say is a good tip or trick that we can use to prompt ourselves maybe to do that? Or if you're facilitating a meeting to check in with people?

A Yeah. So, so a couple of things. Uh, so one is to say, this is the trick I sometimes use. I say, uh, I, I try to blame it on my, uh, Israeli heritage. And I basically, sorry, maybe this is inappropriate to say, but you know, I'm from Israel. I don't know exactly the rules. And then I, I asked something, right? So it's not me. It's, it's a different, it's, it comes from a different, um, uh, reason. Don't, don't blame me for doing this. Um, another thing that I do, this is a very different situation. Um, I, I like rules. I like having rules because rules make us, um, not think about each case specifically. Right? And so one of my rules is when I see people in the party that have something green in their teeth, I tell them. Right? Like if somebody has spinach in their teeth, I tell them. And, you know, I don't want this situation every time. Should I tell them? Should I not tell them? I just say, let's have a rule, and I always tell them. And, and I always tell them I have a rule. So I say, excuse me, I have a rule that when I see people with spinach in their teeth, I tell them that they have spinach in their teeth, and you have something in your teeth. Um, and, By the way, a hundred percent of the time people are happy with this, with this comment because they prefer to know than not to know. But, but having rules actually protects us, right? Imagine you invited me to do somethin…

AI assessment note: “this is the trick I sometimes use. I say, uh, I try to blame it”

Q How do you juggle all of this? I mean, you're speaking, you're writing, you're teaching, you're doing research, you're running a lab. Uh, how do you, how do you organize that? How do you keep that all together?

A So, so one thing I don't, I, uh, I, I work very hard. I don't necessarily keep it, uh, in order and I, I have, I work with amazing people. So one of my, uh, rules is to only work with people I love. Uh, and when, when I, when I meet people I really like, I usually, uh, just hire them and then I worry less about what to do with them. Like, you know, I don't, I usually don't have a project and I say I need somebody with skill X. Hmm. I usually meet somebody I really like. I say, I really want to work with this person. Let's start working with them, and we'll figure out what to do with them. Um, and, and because of that, uh, the group of people I work with are just an incredible fit for me, right? I think they're incredible individuals, and, and it's a, it's a joy, and, uh, there's never a day that I'm not happy to, to see them, and they're also incredibly capable and getting better and better all the time. So I, I My style of running, for example, the research lab. We're about 40 people here. My style is to hire very good people and to tell them that I'm here when they need me, but I don't need to supervise them. So I say, when you need me, I'm here. I'm at your disposal. I'm at your service rather than you at my service. And when you need me, just let me know. But when you're able to do things without me, just go for it.

AI assessment note: “My style is to hire very good people and to tell them that I'm here”

Q Are those, how do you think about those risks? Are they time boxed? Are they like, how do you juggle opportunity cost?

A Yeah, not, not very well. So, so I do, I do play some wild cards. Next month, somebody invited me to come and paint me. An artist I made, so I met and she's going to make a painting of me and Uh, she's become very, very creative artist in my, in my mind. Um, so, you know, it's not that I don't have anything to do and, uh, I, I don't have plans to be in LA that day, but, you know, I'm going to, to try it out and see what I can learn about, about art or, um, you know, in, in payoff in this little Ted book I wrote, I, I wrote about all kinds of injured people who, who write me. And, you know, in the last two years, I, I'm not just responding to people with injuries who write me, but I also went to spend a day with people with different injuries, right? And it's not, it didn't start with, it's not the kind of research I know how to do. It's not small lab scale studies, but I went ahead and I spent a day with people with different injuries, and I didn't know where exactly it would lead, and it was difficult and painful, and some of it was inspiring, but I was on this journey on trying to learn and understand what resilience is. So, um, I basically kind of take invitations for, for different things and, and see where, where it leads me. And, and, and I, I do have to say that in, in most cases it has been, you know, sometimes it's been just a day or a flight or something. I say, okay,…

AI assessment note: “Yeah, not, not very well. So, so I do, I do play some wild cards.”

Q That's really interesting to me. I mean, what, what sort of things can we do to more accurately adapt to the feedback of the world? And so I guess by that, I mean, not, not lying to ourselves as much or letting in more of reality than our ego might be comfortable with.

A Yeah. So, so I don't know. I, I'll tell you, this is like more like personal anecdotes than, than research. So I've been doing this research for 15 years and more or less. And, um, with, we, we also did a movie, uh, called dishonesty, the truth about lies that it's on, is on Netflix. And I think it's quite good. Um, but, but, but thinking about this topic for 15 years has definitely changed my, my own behavior. And I think that, uh, honesty is a little bit like dieting. It's not that something that you read once and then you get to fix it. It's something that you have to fight with every day, right? There's conflicts of interest, there's service providers, there's your own behavior. I mean, it just, it just everywhere. And, and what we need is we need a heightened awareness and vigilance. And we also need to realize we're not going to solve it, right? It's not something that will Get rid of, um, dishonesty, but it's something that we need to figure out where are the important points for society and can we, can we at least eliminate it or reduce it? So at least reduce it. And I can tell you that as, as somebody who does this research all the time, it's, it's with me, right? So I get the request to do X or to do Y, or I got the request to be an expert witness or whatever it is. I always think about my own, my own conflicts of interest. Somebody asked me for a recommendation, you …

AI assessment note: “what we need is we need a heightened awareness and vigilance.”

Q Is there a way you can test this if you're hiring people? Um, to, to figure out where that line is for them. Like how dishonest are they with the assumption that everybody is dishonest a little bit.

A Yeah. So, so you can probably do it. The question, the thing about it, you remember we, we talked a minute ago about the fact that there are different domains. So we did a study that we, we never published it. We should, we should go back to this. It was very heartbreaking. Uh, we gave MBAs, uh, resumes of potential job candidates. Um, And in those resumes, those people were either told, said that they were, it was said about them that they were either dishonest in their personal lives, like to the significant other. They were dishonest at work, but for selfish reasons, like embezzling, right? They, um, you know, exaggerated expense reports, stuff like that. Or they were dishonest at work, but for work. So they cheated, for example, on a negotiation to get the company a better deal. And what happened was that the MBAs did not care about the personal transgressions and they didn't like the people who are, uh, cheating and were selfish, but they actually wanted to hire the people who were cheating for the company.

AI assessment note: “So, so you can probably do it. The question, the thing about it”

Q What sort of environmental changes can we use in an organization to improve our ability to make decisions?

A So, uh, so depends on what, uh, what you want. So let's, let's, uh, think about, uh, health first. So we said something about the refrigerator. Right? The, the people who designed the refrigerator, uh, put the drawer for fruits and vegetables at the bottom, and they made it opaque. And that makes sense, uh, to put in the bottom for humidity and temperature perspective, and it makes sense to make it opaque because it gets dirty. But it also means that people don't open it as much, and the most expensive food that we get, the most perishable, is also, usually goes rotten. Um, so, so one thing that, um, that we do, for example, is we, when we buy, uh, fruits and vegetables, or we put them in front and center, right? It's true that somebody designed a special draw for them, and if we were a perfect human being, and every time we opened the refrigerator to think what we want to eat, we would bend all the way down and check it, but, but we don't. So therefore, we need to design, reuse the refrigerator in a way that makes it Front and center the things we want to, to work more on. So that's, that's on the health side. Let's think on spending side and credit cards and Apple Pay and Android Pay are designed to get us to spend more and think less. Do we want to use them? Not necessarily. A system that we have been using for a while and seems to make a lot of sense is to basically say, le…

AI assessment note: “depends on what, uh, what you want. So let's, let's, uh, think about, uh, health first.”

Q How do we step out of that frame for ourselves and objectively look at ourselves through that lens? Like, it seems to me that it would be easier to study other people and point out possibly what they're doing wrong, whereas when it comes to our own habits, we're not conscious of that. Are there tips or tricks that we can use to become conscious of our own habits?

A Yeah. So, so it is hard because, um, we, we don't know what influence their own behavior, right? And we, we're not, we're not aware of all of those things. So, so you remember the, the famous study on organ donation, right? The opt in and opt out, right? So, uh, you, you, there's some people who get, yeah, that's right. And, and the studies is very, it's amazing, right? People who get, um, uh, opt in, Uh, basically they have to opt in, they don't opt in, and they don't donate. People who have to opt out end up not doing anything also, and then ending up donating. And it's a big, it's a big effect. It's a shocking effect in terms of size, but imagine the next step of it. The next step is that you, you go to the people at the DMV, and some people have an opt-in form, and some people have the opt-out form, and when they come out of the DMV, you say, can you explain to me why you did what you did? Why you chose the To donate or don't to, not to donate in the, in the opt in and on the opt in opt out. And what you would think is that people would have some insight about why they're doing what they're doing. The answer is people have no insight. In fact, what they do is they have a tremendous story about why what they did is the right thing. Right? So people, people who are, we rationalize. That's right. Exactly. And we're so fast in rationalizing. So, so people who are in the, in the…

AI assessment note: “it is hard because we don't know what influence their own behavior”