The Exchanges

Q Why don't we take that approach? I mean, comedians effectively take that approach without recording the audience because it's based on, oh, that joke got a laugh. I'm going to use that next time. That joke fell flat. I'm not going to use that next time.

A It's the feedback loop is Instant. So that's how that was, what was such the value. Like when I was teaching psychology at CUNY, I was speaking like 80 to a hundred hours a week, both at my office and both instant feedback loop of what story worked, what story didn't work. Like, did that land? Did that offend somebody? And you just start to develop this quicker repertoire of things that actually work, but that comes from that audience interaction. But most people, when giving a presentation, they're not even present enough to do that because they're so in their head about the presentation. So it's sort of a skill set that comes after you've been more comfortable being on stage to be able to process and sort of predict the behavior of an audience.

AI assessment note: “most people, when giving a presentation, they're not even present enough to do that”

Q Well, let's switch gears to AI. You're a master researcher. Uh, I'm curious about your process around using chat GPT to get up to speed on something or Or how do you leverage AI to go about learning a new subject?

A Yeah, it's, it's ridiculous because six months ago I was like, I don't know, like it would just make things up and now it's great. So one of my big things is I say I have a prompt that if I'm looking at an academic discipline that I don't know a lot about, I say I want you to imagine this academic discipline as the branch and I want you to imagine the subcategories as the, uh, I'm sorry, as the, not the branch, I want you to imagine the base of the tree As the discipline, the branch as a sub-discipline, and the leaves as the academics that correspond to that, and it does it for you. So like it goes into neurobiology, like I've been really interested in predictive processing, which is this sort of universal theory for how consciousness really is, like how we process our world, and it's a, it's a rabbit hole to say the least, right? So it has all these different philosophical approach, all of that, In order to understand that world, I need to understand the bigger macro principles behind it, and, like, who the key players are in it. And, I mean, you used to have to do that research, or have a research team, and have somebody, like, do this, and now I literally do it in a couple of prompts. It's, it's absurd. It's, like, absurd for workflows.

AI assessment note: “I have a prompt that if I'm looking at an academic discipline”

Q Why don't we take that approach? I mean, comedians effectively take that approach without recording the audience because it's based on, oh, that joke got a laugh. I'm going to use that next time. That joke fell flat. I'm not going to use that next time.

A It's the feedback loop is instant. So that's how I That was what was such the value. Like when I was teaching psychology at CUNY, I was speaking like 80 to a hundred hours a week, both at my office and both instant feedback loop of what story worked, what story didn't work. Like, did that land? Did that offend somebody? And you just start to develop this quicker repertoire of things that actually work, but that comes from that audience interaction. But most people, when giving a presentation, they're not even present enough to do that because they're so in their head about the presentation. So it's sort of a skill set that comes after you've been more comfortable being on stage to be able to process and sort of predict the behavior of an audience.

AI assessment note: “most people, when giving a presentation, they're not even present enough to do that”

Q Laughs instantly, right? I want to switch gears a little bit. What's the Rockefeller method?

A Okay, so I read, I think it was Titan, um, the book, and there was a lot of lessons in that book, but there was one story that fascinated me, and it was, uh, John D. Rockefeller was in an oil barreling facility, um, And he was watching his group of people barrel these oil barrels. And like, back in the day, you would take tar, and you'd put tar all around the barrel, and then you'd put it and you'd hammer it. And he's sitting there watching this, and he's going, why do you use nine or 10 or whatever pieces of tar? And they were like, I don't know, Mr. Rockefeller, it's just what we do. And it was, and he was like, well, can you find out, do it, do like a little study, and find out how much can you do it without, without ruining the integrity of it. And I was like, that's absolutely fascinating. Like that way of thinking. And it's so cool to be like, just Rockefeller sitting there as like Titan of industry, looking at this really small process and being like, how can we optimize that? So after reading that, I made this like Rockefeller method internally where every quarter I would sort of view things from that perspective. Right. And, uh, it, it comes up in weird, like SaaS ways right now, where it's like, oh, wow, we spent a lot of money on this. Like, reach out to them and see if we could maybe get a bulk discount. And the amount that comes back from that method is absurd. Lik…

AI assessment note: “I made this like Rockefeller method internally where every quarter I would sort of view things”

Q One question before the last question, so the penultimate question, I guess, is we were talking about writing earlier, and the power of writing in terms of thinking. Can you expand on that?

A It's, over time, I have seen more and more that it is probably one of the most powerful self-developed mediums, self-development mediums over anything. I think that people, we're in a war, especially for those who are thinkers. I know I'm a thinker. I spend a lot of time in my head and not being present and thinking and processing. There's no checks and balances up here. There's no one to stop and say, hey, that's kind of not the right idea or not. When you write something out, you're creating reality. You're taking your thoughts and you're putting it out into reality. And then there's an ability to critically examine that. And I just feel like it's so much help. It's so helpful. It allows you to structure your ideas. It makes you a better thinker. It makes you a better communicator. It's evidence of how you've shifted your thoughts and your principles and ideas over over time. I think a writing practice is so, so, so important.

AI assessment note: “When you write something out, you're creating reality. You're taking your thoughts”

Q I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about, um, workplace and sort of power structures and social dynamics. How can you teach me to understand the power structure at work and social dynamics? How would you go about that?

A So power structures, Oh man, that's such a good question. They are these invisible things. That's what I, when we talk about reading the room in a corporate structure, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about power structure, we're talking about permissions, all these things. The first way to do it is to do this exercise where you sort of do a decision tree of the potential, like show people what the potential landscape could be. So for example, let's say all of a sudden a new CEO gets pulled in. And we want to say, okay, what is this CEO going through? Is this CEO just pushed in by the PE company? Does the CEO have performance based incentives? Like what are they trying to do? And just map out all what quote unquote is possible, and then start using the data and evidence that's coming in on a daily basis to like cross out which one it is. And then sometimes just to straight up ask. I think that's something that a lot of organizations don't do. I can, I can't tell you the amount of times where I'm just like, So I have this really cool perspective because I work with often the entire C-suite. So like the COO, CTO, like everybody I work with, and it's like, you two need to talk about this because this is blocking, you two need to talk about this. But the amount of communication that just doesn't happen at like a personal level or just a level that's like blocking deci…

AI assessment note: “The first way to do it is to do this exercise where you sort of do a decision tree”

Q What does putting in the reps mean? Does that mean Crafting your story and positioning it for the audience. Does it mean your intonation? Like, how do you actually go about working on that? Like, how would you make me an expert presenter if you had three weeks and you had one hour a day of my time?

A So that's so, so cool that you did that. So my question is always be, what was the constraint? So if you said three hours a week, one hour a day of your time, the first week would probably be reps of just Let's get you comfortable. Let's, so the thing is, a lot of nonverbal behavior stuff and movement, I have found reliably that the most effective version of someone is when they're the most comfortable. Bar not, every single time. So the whole joke is people think I teach like, oh, stand this way. No, like, step one is get you to the level where you're the most comfortable, where you feel the most free, and then build on top of that. So I try to get you there first, and I wouldn't be focusing on I mean, it really depends. If you're doing, like, a TED talk that was, like, 20 minutes, I'd probably tell you just to rehearse it and get that down. But if you're doing, like, an hour presentation, or the most presentations that people have to do, it would be all outlines, repeat, repeat, repeat, repeat. And it's a, it's a careful balancing act to, like, understand where you're at, because some people with a lot of anxiety, I will know, or some people that are trying to get it right, I won't be focusing on little details. It's a way more dynamic process. Like, so, some people that have, like, these facial things to getting better at presentations, like, it's different for every person,…

AI assessment note: “the first week would probably be reps of just Let's get you comfortable.”

Q I like that. Is there a way that we can look at our emails and evaluate our, our communication by like sort of like looking outside in or questions we can ask other people to evaluate how effective our communication is?

A So that's probably the best way is questions of asking other people of, but see, this is where it gets, what would we ask them? So this is where it gets interesting, right? So like you have to have a leadership style and a presence and a history of being the kind of person that could sit there and be like, Hey everyone, I'm really trying to improve how I am on emails. So I just want you to know, like, when I send you an email, do you have any, like, weird stories of an email that I sent you that you thought I was a certain way or I was frustrated of a certain way? But a lot of leaders or executives, they can't even create the, like, space or the dynamic to do that. Most people will be like, no, you're fine. So, like, I love these questions where we do all these, like, perception research, right? So you go like this. You say, how do you think that interaction went on a scale from one to 10? People are horrible at answering it. Like, do you like that person from a scale from one to 10? They're like, I don't know. But you ask somebody a question, would, on a scale from one to five, how likely are you to invite this person to a dinner with your closest friends? And the answer is so easy for them to answer. So I like questions that are about predictive type of things, right? Not about just your trait, because it allows them to conceptualize and give a better answer. So I would be as…

AI assessment note: “How many times do you leave an email for me feeling frustrated?”

Q I want to switch gears a little bit and talk about, um, workplace and sort of power structures and social dynamics. How can you teach me to understand the power structure at work and social dynamics? How would you go about that?

A So power structures, Oh man, that's such a good question. They are these invisible things. That's what I, when we talk about reading the room in a corporate structure, that's what we're talking about. We're talking about power structure, we're talking about permissions, all these things. The first way to do it is to do this exercise where you sort of do a decision tree of the potential, like show people what the potential landscape could be. So for example, let's say all of a sudden a new CEO gets pulled in. And we want to say, okay, what is this CEO going through? Is this CEO just pushed in by the PE company? Does the CEO have performance based incentives? Like what are they trying to do? And just map out all what quote unquote is possible and then start using the data and evidence that's coming in on a daily basis to like cross out which one it is. And then sometimes it's just straight up ask. I think that's something that a lot of organizations don't do. I can, I can't tell you the amount of times where I'm just like, So I have this really cool perspective because I work with often the entire C-suite. So like the COO, CTO, like everybody I work with, and it's like, you two need to talk about this because this is blocking, you two need to talk about this. But the amount of communication that just doesn't happen at like a personal level or just a level that's like blocking dec…

AI assessment note: “The first way to do it is to do this exercise where you sort of do a decision tree”

Q And what are you watching? Are you watching you or are you watching other people's reactions to you?

A So that's, so, uh, The exercise of watching other people reacting to you is very valuable in the sense where you understand when you're losing people, when people are disinterested, when they're engaged, so on and so forth, but also understanding aspects of you. I believe that most people, you need somebody else to help you with this. Um, people look at the things that don't matter. They'll say like, I say like so much, or I say, um, or I say, ah, like you're missing the picture of what you're trying to sort of convey. So part of the process is like coming up with almost like a series of words that you'd want to, like, how do you want to come across in this interaction? Well, I want to be enthusiastic. I want to be interested. I want to be to the point. And then making sure that your behaviors are in alignment with that and landing for the people in that way. But a lot of it is like breaking down video and just analyzing video. Like that's the best Way by far.

AI assessment note: “watching other people reacting to you is very valuable... but also understanding aspects of you”

Q would it take to, because I'm not looking for signs anymore, right? Like, my brain shuts down, and I'm like, oh, this person's trustworthy, therefore I stop looking for it, or I say, this person's not trustworthy, therefore that's all I see. And how do we go about changing other people's perceptions of us, and also changing our own, or being open to changing our own perception of other people?

A So like, we have this Bayesian brain, and even people that are the most like, I think they're the most Bayesian approach. When it comes to human behavior, we get lazy, and we build these things, and we don't change, and I feel like the only time we're changed is if we're shown we're really wrong, and that's one of the things that I do a lot. So in like working with executives and programs and training, I get somebody to make a read or a prediction about someone else's behavior, and then I show them like, oh no, you were completely wrong, and they're like, really? And they're like, oh yeah, this was the reason why they boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And enough of those wrongs, it gets people to sort of challenge how they're viewing the world. And then you can start to have the self growth, but it's not an easy path. Like some people will hold on to their perceptions. They were like, oh no, like I've been doing this thing for 25 years and it's never got me wrong. All the cognitive and decision making bias stuff that you're famous for gets applied to behavior every single second of every single day.

AI assessment note: “the only time we're changed is if we're shown we're really wrong”

Q person where you're getting a three-dimensional view of them, but now Zoom, right? It's very common to meet new colleagues over Zoom and not in person, and you have to form a trust relationship with each other, and maybe there's, um, less detail in those interactions. How do we Look for signs that somebody might be untrustworthy. And conversely, how do we convey trustworthiness to other people through these interactions?

A That's a great question. Okay, so trust from a nonverbal perspective is just, you could think of behaviors on a bell curve distribution, right? So certain people are going to act in certain ways that are not in alignment with how society perceives that behavior to be trustworthy. So an example of this is eye contact. If all of a sudden your eye contact is constantly darting all around the space, people have a perception of, like, why are they doing that? Like, what's going on there? But on the other hand, like, if you ask me, Blake, what is the most important moment that happened in your life, and I go, well, the most important moment that happened in my life, and I look at you dead at your eyes when I'm saying that, look, it looks better when I'm like, I mean, the most important moment that ever happened in my life, it looks more genuine because it makes sense that I'm looking away to recall an emotional event and then look back at you. So it's in alignment with how society perceives things. And that really, in my opinion, is what it's about. So everybody has their own sort of perceptual lens for what trustworthy behaviors are and aren't. Right. So for me, I always look to have conversations or do things that are like three standard deviations to the right of a bell curve. So like if me and you had a conversation for an hour, we're bringing up topics that you normally don't ha…

AI assessment note: “So an example of this is eye contact. If all of a sudden your eye contact”

Q Are there things that we can do in our environment that we control individually outside of the context of an organization that we can use to improve our behavior that come to mind for you?

A Set up cameras. Um, also just Set it up so that you win. Like, I feel like certain structures and certain environmental, like, just the way an office is integrated. Like, I had worked for one person a long time ago that had, like, a desk, and he had a, like, really large desk, and then there was a chair, and he would, every time somebody came to the office, he would, like, walk behind his desk, like, shake their hand, and then bring them to, like, a couch setup where they were faced one-on-one, and that's before Zoom and before COVID. This is how they did all their one-on-one sessions. And it was just like a simple way of getting, making sure the person feels really heard, because you're just aligned with them. Totally. And you're, you're looking at them, and you're facing that direction. I was like, huh, that's a really cool way of setting it up.

AI assessment note: “Set up cameras. Um, also just Set it up so that you win.”

Q things that we can take away from this conversation and apply to dating? Whether we're a guy, a girl, it doesn't matter. Um, how can we read into the first few interactions with somebody from a, am I trying to determine if I want to spend my life with this person or see them more or, um, How do we, how do we use this information in that specific context?

A Yeah, dating's a tricky one, because dating is this like, it is this weird game still. Like in the beginning, it's this game of like delayed attraction and delayed gratification, and it's, there's so much nuance to it. I, I'll tell you one thing, I think that, so I, I used to do this, I used to teach a dating class in New York City, um, and one of the cool things I would do is I'd ask people in the room like, What's their ideal person? And they like write a list on that piece of paper. And then I go, okay, the last three relationships in your life, how, how many of them met that criteria? And they would all like laugh and it would never be one-to-one.

AI assessment note: “I used to teach a dating class in New York City”

Q And are they more like a light switch?

A Yeah, I think they're more erratic in that regard. Like all of a sudden you say something like, what'd you say? Like, it's, it's quick. Where like some of the bigger, if they want, they'll just, just lay you out right there. Like it's, they're big. They've got that aggression. They've got that power. Um, but yeah, I would definitely say that And also the younger population, like, you know, people in their twenties that are just 25, 26, in prison, um, it's different. It's a different time for someone versus 40 or 50 that have had that experience and that life long. It's just, it's completely different when you've been institutionalized and grown up in that area and understand how to handle yourself and how to play the game and how to navigate all these things. But I've met some really, really, really smart people That were, like, just really ingenious ideas and concepts that came from prison.

AI assessment note: “Yeah, I think they're more erratic in that regard. Like all of a sudden”