Mar 17, 2022 · 58m · catalyst
When will batteries take over the world?
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of Catalyst, guest host Laura Pierpoint and Volta Energy Technologies CTO Dave Schroeder explore the technological and economic pathways required for batteries to decarbonize global transportation and the electric grid. They evaluate electric vehicle battery chemistries, fast charging trade-offs, lithium-ion manufacturing cost curves, and emerging long-duration grid storage alternatives including flow, thermal, and gravity systems.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 3.8 Guest teaching 3.0 Guest disagreement 1.9 Shayle pushing back 1.7
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 7:44 Schroeder's critique of the 'range anxiety' trope
Schroeder forcefully dismisses the industry-standard phrase 'range anxiety', insisting it should be permanently excised from vocabulary because it frames a vehicle deficiency as a consumer flaw.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 46:04 Pierpoint challenges 'cheap rocks' assertionPierpoint interrupts Schroeder's quip to push back on the economic claim that rocks are cheap, demanding he account for high-temperature operational demands.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 31:13 Schroeder redefines duration as inverse performanceSchroeder systematically dismantles the common industry assumption that long duration is inherently desirable, educating the host that duration mathematically represents low rate performance.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 20:48 Pierpoint presses on simultaneous cost-performance trade-offsPierpoint demonstrates strong domain knowledge by challenging the idea that single chemistries can optimize both cost and performance, citing cobalt supply bottlenecks and sulfur degradation.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Commercial Break: Bloom Energy and Engie | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Introductory monologue and sponsor advertisements. As specified for solo/monologue and sponsor segments, all scores are zeroed out. | |
| Introducing Dave Schroeder and Volta Energy Technologies | 4 | 3 | 3 | 1 | Pierpoint introduces Schroeder and Volta's diligence process. Schroeder politely pushes back against industry buzzwords, rejecting the framing of 'range anxiety' as a customer defect rather than a product deficiency. | |
| Fast Charging Rates, Trade-offs, and Anode Chemistry | 5 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Pierpoint asks technical questions about charge rate versus range trade-offs. Schroeder details battery degradation mechanisms such as lithium plating and dendrite formation under extreme C-rates. | |
| Battery Safety Failure Modes and Quality Control | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | Discussion centers on separator failure modes, quality control, and recent EV recalls. Schroeder contextualizes safety by noting ICE vehicles catch fire at higher rates per vehicle than EVs. | |
| Cost Reduction Strategies and Emerging Cathode Materials | 5 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Pierpoint challenges the premise that materials can simultaneously cut costs and boost performance. Schroeder breaks down silicon anode volume expansion issues and sulfur cathode trade-offs. | |
| Commercial Break: Bloom Energy and Engie | 4 | 2 | 1 | 2 | Mid-roll break transitions into discussion of EV vehicle segments. Schroeder points out niche chemistries like LFP are already practical for fleet delivery vehicles. | |
| Debunking Electric Vehicle Lifecycle Emissions Myths | 3 | 4 | 2 | 1 | Pierpoint asks about lifecycle emissions claims. Schroeder immediately refutes the myth that EVs are dirtier than gas cars across full lifecycles, citing upstream grid decarbonization and manufacturing incentives. | |
| Grid Storage Dynamics and the Long Duration Debate | 5 | 5 | 4 | 3 | Schroeder rejects the popular framing of 'long duration storage', pointing out that duration is mathematically the inverse of rate and high performance. Pierpoint pushes him to clarify the faucet-and-bathtub analogy. | |
| The Economics of Lithium-Ion in Grid Applications | 4 | 4 | 3 | 2 | Schroeder directly disagrees with Pierpoint's statement that lithium-ion is too expensive for the grid, explaining that low utilization of marginal hours, not the battery pack base price, drives poor economics. | |
| Analyzing Flow Battery Potentials and Grid Trade-offs | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Schroeder explains flow battery mechanics and decoupling power from energy, noting low round-trip efficiency and lack of an early consumer adopter market to scale manufacturing. | |
| Exploring Thermal Energy Storage and Investment Hurdles | 4 | 3 | 2 | 3 | Pierpoint presses Schroeder on what he means by rocks being cheap before they are hot. Schroeder explains the investment hurdle of non-defensible thermodynamic cycles across thermal storage startups. | |
| Gravity-Based Storage and Mechanical Solutions | 4 | 3 | 2 | 2 | Discussion moves to gravity storage like Energy Vault. Schroeder explains the 4-hour economic viability of elevator systems using waste concrete, while Pierpoint probes policy and market enablers. | |
| Emerging Horizons in Energy Storage and Technology Outlook | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | Schroeder shares Volta's outlook across power electronics and recycling, bluntly shutting down Pierpoint's joke about solar windows wirelessly charging phones within five years. |
Statements from this episode (29)
Pierpoint: Lithium-ion battery pack prices fell 89% between 2010 and 2020
“They went down 89% between twenty-ten and twenty-twenty from pack prices above 1100 dollars a kilowatt hour down to around 140 dollars a kilowatt hour.”
Pierpoint: GM recalled nearly 150,000 Chevy Bolts following 13 battery fires
“They've gotten safer in many respects, but we have a way to go there, too, given that just last August, GM recalled all of the nearly 150,000 Chevy Bolts they have ever made due to 13 EV battery fires.”
Pierpoint: Monetizing grid storage requires renewable-driven price volatility
“The problem is that electricity is cheap and batteries are operated intermittently, so making money on storage can be tricky if you don't have a lot of renewables that Produce significant price volatility.”
Schroeder: Global EV market share doubled in 2021 to around 9%
“Market share globally for EVs doubled last year. It's up to around nine percent”
Schroeder: 'Range anxiety' is a product deficiency, not a customer flaw
“So I think it really should be looked at as a product deficiency. And not as a customer deficiency. I don't think that's helpful. I don't think it's helpful to people who want EV adoption to happen.”
Schroeder: Car buyers demand vehicles meeting nearly 100% of needs
“I think consumers don't buy vehicles that meet their needs most of the time, or even 90% of the time. They buy a vehicle that meets nearly a hundred percent of their needs.”
Schroeder: Fast charging infrastructure matters more for long trips than extra range
“I think you have to have you have to have fast charging capability and the infrastructure for that to really enable the, you know, longer trip to go visit family, coast to coast sort of travel. To have those things happen, you need more than just a couple hund…”
Schroeder: Batteries charging at 10C in six minutes already exist
“You can get batteries that, that can charge at 10 C or even faster. So 10 C would be 10 times its full capacity in an hour. So that would be, you know, a six minute zero to a hundred percent state of charge.”
Schroeder: EV industry must achieve megawatt charging capability for long trips
“I think that is where we have to go. We have to get to a point where we have megawatt charging capability.”
Schroeder: EVs have fewer fires per vehicle than ICE cars
“There are still a lot fewer of them on a per EV basis than there are internal combustion engine vehicle fires on a per ICE basis.”
Schroeder: Silicon-dominant battery anodes will soon become prevalent
“People have been working at it for a long time, but I think we're getting close to where some of these silicon dominant anode materials will start to become prevalent.”
Schroeder: Cathodes represent the single largest expense in batteries
“So cost reductions, the cat, the cathode is the biggest single expense in the battery, so dropping its cost is, is meaningful.”
Schroeder: EV market will use multiple battery chemistries, not one holy grail
“I definitely am not a believer in a single holy grail of batteries that, that solves all problems. I think it's, you know, it's going to be a number of solutions to solve different application cases”
Schroeder: LFP batteries are the logical choice for delivery vehicles
“Lithium iron phosphate based batteries seem to be the logical choice today for those applications, and, you know, there's growing business for that.”
Schroeder: EVs reduce lifecycle emissions even factoring in battery manufacturing
“You know, the first proposition is we need to get EV adoption up because it does actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions, even if you consider the energy that's embedded in production of the battery itself.”
Schroeder: Battery cost pressure naturally aligns with reducing manufacturing emissions
“Energy use drives cost and this is a really competitive business, so there's a huge incentive for squeezing the energy out of battery manufacturing because people want to squeeze the cost out.”
Schroeder: Critics conflate lithium-ion economic costs with technical limits
“And so I always kind of cringe when I hear people say things like lithium mine can't do long duration or can't do durations more than four hours. Everyone who has a cell phone knows That lithium ion can do 24 hours, because we've all forgotten to plug one in f…”
Schroeder: California Installed Its First Large Eight-Hour Lithium-Ion System
“Though I noticed just this week, California installed its first large eight-hour lithium-ion system.”
Schroeder: Investors Must Treat Lithium-Ion Winning as the Null Hypothesis
“And I think, you know, so as an investor in the space, we always try to disprove this hypothesis, but I think the null hypothesis has to be lithium ion wins. And, you know, then you have to see if you can come up with ways that that's not the case, but you hav…”
Schroeder: Power tool batteries still cost roughly $1,000 per kWh at retail
“Power tool batteries are still at retail about a thousand dollars a kilowatt hour, right? And people are happy to pay it. Maybe not happy, but they do pay it.”
Schroeder: EV manufacturing scale will drive down grid battery costs
“And my hypothesis is, the same thing is going to give you a grid battery because those Not early adopters, but earlier than the grid EV manufacturers are going to wring the cost out of it, and utility industry will be the beneficiary there.”
Schroeder: Long-duration battery economics fail when unused capacity goes unmonetized
“And it's really not that they cost so much, right? It's that you don't get value out of the 23rd hour of storage that you have installed if you don't use it every day.”
Schroeder: Flow batteries typically have around 65% AC round-trip efficiency
“Generally, they have round trip AC to AC efficiency in the 65% range, which I don't know if that sounds good or bad to you.”
Schroeder: Flow batteries match lithium-ion costs at 8 to 10 hours
“And usually you get something that looks like lithium ion cost when you're getting around eight to 10 hours.”
Schroeder: Thermal storage cost crosses lithium-ion at 8 to 10 hours
“And unfortunately, at least from what I've seen, round trip efficiency kind of looks like flow battery round trip efficiency. And, you know, where the crossover with lithium ion costs, you know, in that eight to 10 hour range, Kind of looks similar too.”
Schroeder: Thermal storage IP cannot stop rivals using alternative cycles
“They might have intellectual property that prevents someone from directly copying what they're doing, but they can't stop all of these other people who could generate nominally the same performance from pursuing what they're pursuing.”
Schroeder: Grid-connected EVs will offset some dedicated grid storage demand
“We are inherently going to be putting huge amounts of lithium ion on the grid in the form of, you know, EVs. And so I think at least for demand response, there's something there, right? There's some offset that, you know, to other storage that would be needed,…”