Apr 7, 2022 · 36m · catalyst
Carbon capture and storage is making a comeback
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In this episode of Catalyst, host Shail Khan and IPCC lead author Dr. Chris Bataille explore the technological resurgence, economic benchmarks, and strategic necessity of carbon capture, utilization, and storage (CCUS). They evaluate how carbon capture evolved from early coal-era failures into an indispensable, targeted decarbonization mechanism for heavy industry and permanent carbon removal.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 35.8% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.5 Guest teaching 4.5 Guest disagreement 1.8 Shayle pushing back 2.6
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 29:10 Bataille sharply criticizes Permian Basin methane leak rates
Bataille emphatically dismisses poor oilfield practices, arguing that 7-9% fugitive rates make natural gas as damaging as coal.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 26:48 Kann pushes back on excluding the power sector from essential CCS usesKann directly challenges Bataille's framing after Bataille lists only cement and chemicals, forcing a pivot to clean firm power.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 7:23 Bataille explains amine poisoning in coal flue gas separationBataille walks through the chemical mechanics of why solvent separation failed on coal flue streams due to particulate contamination.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 31:20 Kann identifies discrepancy between current deployment and theoretical prioritiesKann demonstrates deep subject tracking by pointing out that real-world deployment centers on ammonia and ethanol rather than cement.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Canary Media Anniversary Donation Drive Announcement | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Introductory promo, podcast teaser snippet, and sponsor announcements by voiceover. No active host-guest interview dynamic. | |
| Host Introduction to the CCS Resurgence | 5 | 3 | 1 | 1 | Kann introduces the U-shaped revival of planned CCS capacity and welcomes IPCC lead author Dr. Bataille, who outlines high-level takeaways regarding urgency and clean tech cost declines. | |
| Historical Context and Failures of Coal CCS | 6 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Kann probes why coal flue gas capture failed where natural gas methane separation succeeded. Bataille explains the technical failure of standard amine solvents when contaminated by coal particulates. | |
| High-Purity Carbon Streams and Policy Incentives | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3 | Kann highlights the economics of pure CO2 streams under the 45Q tax credit, questioning why North American adoption lagged behind European projects like Sleipner despite strong financial margins. | |
| Mid-Roll Commercials: Bloom Energy and Engie | 5 | 5 | 2 | 2 | Following mid-roll sponsor spots, Bataille and Kann discuss CO2 utilization limits versus permanent storage, highlighting enhanced oil recovery and DAC projects by 1PointFive. | |
| Permanent Geological Storage in Saline Aquifers | 6 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Bataille explains global saline aquifer pore capacity (thousands of gigatons) and mineralization chemistry, while Kann probes social license hurdles and regulatory bottlenecks. | |
| Modern Capture Technologies and Cost Benchmarks | 6 | 6 | 2 | 3 | Bataille clarifies cost distinctions between high-purity point sources ($40–$60/ton), post-combustion clean flue gas ($80–$120/ton), and early industrial pilot plants ($120–$150/ton). | |
| Prioritizing Critical Sectors: Cement, Chemicals, and Firm Power | 7 | 5 | 2 | 4 | Bataille outlines the IPCC industrial mitigation hierarchy, prioritizing cement and chemicals. Kann immediately pushes back on the omission of the power sector, prompting discussion of NetPower and clean firm power. | |
| Debating Upstream Methane Leaks and Fossil Lock-in | 7 | 5 | 3 | 4 | Kann raises key criticisms of CCS regarding upstream fugitive methane leakage and fossil fuel lock-in. Bataille agrees high-leakage extraction undermines CCS and argues CCS should focus primarily on non-fossil process emissions. | |
| Cement Industry Pilots and the Future of Green Ammonia | 7 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Kann catches a nuance regarding current deployments versus future cement pilots, prompting Bataille to explain how green hydrogen and cheap renewables will eventually phase out blue ammonia. |
Statements from this episode (20)
Kann: Global planned CCS capacity grew 50% to 111 million tons
“The global capacity of planned CCS, carbon capture and sequestration projects, Grew 50% just over nine months last year to a total of a hundred and eleven million tons, which would triple the current operating capacity in the world.”
Bataille: Standard amine carbon capture fails on contaminated coal flue gas
“The problem is, for most coal plants, what's coming out, it's full of garbage. Like, it's full of all sorts of It's full of contaminants, it's full of particulates, and it messes with the amine separation process, so you can't just straight off use that, and t…”
Bataille: NET Power generates pure CO2 using supercritical CO2 working fluid
“A company in Texas called NetPower that is getting pure CO₂ out of the back end of an electricity generation plant, but it's because the working fluid is not air. It's actually compressed supercritical CO₂. So they inject methane, they inject oxygen, they igni…”
Kann: The $50 45Q tax credit covers high-concentration carbon capture costs
“Although the 45 Q tax credit, which is a 50 dollar tax credit if it's not used for enhanced oil recovery, you know, that's well in the money for some of these higher concentration sources.”
Bataille: Enhanced oil recovery is the first major use for captured CO2
“The first biggest use if you're going to do CCU is actually enhanced oil recovery in place of other higher emitting oil sources as we climb down from a hundred million barrels a day down to zero sometime mid-century. But, you know, obviously that's a contentio…”
Kann: 1PointFive's million-ton direct air capture plant targets enhanced oil recovery
“The first really big direct air capture plants that are getting built in the U S that are getting built by this company, 1.5, which is a JV between carbon engineering and, Occidental petroleum, and those are all, it's a million ton per year plant, the first on…”
Bataille: Over 90% of captured CO2 must be permanently stored, not utilized
“The numbers I typically see is we will utilize less than 10% of it. Most of it has to go into deep storage, be it depleted oil and gas reservoirs with tight overseal, or into deep saline aquifers. Like, the vast majority has to go into permanent storage withou…”
Bataille: Global saline aquifers offer thousands of gigatons of CO2 storage
“The number that goes around, the utilizable number is roughly a thousand gigatons, which is more than the current Budget for, you know, for 1.5 C and the, you know, the IA says something like 2000 to 3000 gigatons. And really there's probably tens of thousands…”
Bataille: Underground CO2 storage will face public resistance due to fracking fears
“I think there's going to be some resistance there, partly just socially. You know, after the experience with the shallow fracking that brought up a lot of math, methane, people are worried about drilling, right? So deep saline is you're going 800 meters down. …”
Bataille: Equinor offshore CCS costs $15 to $20 per ton
“That 15 to 20 dollars is the recompression, the drilling recompression, and down to the saline aquifer and monitoring. That's what the 15 to 20 was. And again, they initially estimated 50, 60 dollars per ton.”
Bataille: CCS costs $40-60 per ton for pure CO2, $80-120 for post-combustion
“Typically the numbers we work with is if you've got pure CO₂ to work with, you probably have 40, it's 40 to 60 dollars per ton. But if you're using, doing post-combustion with a clean flue gas, probably 80, the end application will be 80 to a hundred dollars p…”
Bataille: CCS is essential for cement due to lack of alternative chemistries
“We're going to need it for cement because there are no alternative chemistries coming down the pipe anytime soon, and there's a lot of buildings that need to be built.”
Bataille: Permian methane leak rates make natural gas as dirty as coal
“In places like the Permian where, you know, the number is seven percent, then eight percent, then nine percent, those are tragically high fugitive, fugitive, fugitive levels. You might as well be doing coal.”
Bataille: Massive global oil and natural gas consumption will persist for decades
“Because, you know, we're at a hundred million barrels per day and a large consumption of natural gas. That's going to be with us for 30 years.”
Bataille: Gas CCS for grid firming won't lock in major fossil production
“A little bit of net power gas to firm up a mainly wind and solar power system is not going to lock in a whole lot of oil and gas production.”
Bataille: Post-combustion CCS breakthroughs will likely happen in the cement sector
“So we, you know, if we're going to make a breakthrough in post-combustion CCS, It will likely be in the cement sector, and there are three pilots happening, ah, that are built, high capture pilots happening right now.”
Bataille: Green electricity will displace blue hydrogen for fertilizer past 2030
“Now, for ammonia, there may in the short run be an argument for using blue hydrogen to make, you know, to make ammonia for fertilizers, but in the long haul, like past 20, 30, really, You know, the cost of electrolyzers and the cost of solar, you would just ma…”
Bataille: Carbon removal is an admission we will miss net-zero targets
“We're probably going to blow past the deadline by about two decades, which means, you know, CDR is basically an admission of failure. That we did not mitigate fast enough.”
Bataille: Technical carbon dioxide removal will reach 1 to 5 gigatons annually
“The key CDR technologies, in my mind, will be direct air capture with CCS, because what CCS does is it takes the CO₂ taken by the direct air capture unit and pushes it back underground, and probably some forms of geological weathering, and it's going to be a b…”