Feb 16, 2023 · 46m · catalyst
Strong opinions on SMRs
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
In this episode of Catalyst, host Shail Khan interviews Last Energy CEO Brett Kugelmass to critically examine why small modular nuclear reactors face severe deployment delays and cost overruns. Kugelmass argues for abandoning custom megaprojects and novel chemistries in favor of standardized, factory-built micro-reactors and aggressive international deployment.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 32.3% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.1 Guest teaching 5.9 Guest disagreement 5.4 Shayle pushing back 3.7
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 20:04 Immediate dismissal of NuScale's NRC certification
Brett cuts Shayle off repeatedly with triple 'Nope' refutations, bluntly dismissing NuScale's achievement as legally meaningless and likening it to an eighth-grade spelling bee certificate.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 22:42 Shayle cites Vogtle to counter the zero-reactor claimWhen Brett asserts that no entity has ever completed the NRC licensing process, Shayle directly interrupts to cite Plant Vogtle as a concrete counterexample.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 14:34 Brett details the cascading failure of novel material scienceBrett walks through the real-world operational friction of introducing new steel alloys into nuclear designs, explaining how welding codes, insurance, and inspection standards can sink a project.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 8:10 Shayle articulates the modular cost curve thesisShayle lays out the core economic theory behind SMRs, comparing factory manufacturability and steep learning curves to the cost reduction trajectories of solar and batteries.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Deconstructing the Definition and Scale of SMRs | 6 | 6 | 6 | 4 | Shayle asks Brett to define SMRs, leading Brett to immediately reject industry nomenclature and characterize most SMRs as neither small nor modular. Shayle demonstrates domain knowledge by noting the manufacturing thesis and learning curves seen in solar and batteries. | |
| Global Construction Realities and Pitfalls of Material Science Innovation | 5 | 7 | 7 | 4 | Brett explains why material science innovations derail nuclear projects through practical implementation issues like welding codes and inspections. Shayle prompts with questions about physics and international builds like China, allowing Brett to thoroughly dissect industry bottlenecks. | |
| Evaluating Recent Industry Milestones: GE Hitachi and NuScale | 6 | 8 | 8 | 6 | Shayle brings up NuScale's NRC milestone as a key development, but Brett aggressively interrupts and debunks it, comparing the design certification to an eighth-grade spelling bee certificate. Shayle pushes back by asking about Vogtle and challenging Brett's dismissal of the milestone. | |
| Mid-Roll Sponsor Messages: Power Solutions and Virtual Power Plants | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Mid-roll commercial announcements and sponsor messages for Bloom Energy, Engie, and Energy Hub. No dialogue between host and guest. | |
| Shifting Global Public Sentiment and Opportunities in Poland | 6 | 6 | 5 | 4 | Brett and Shayle discuss the global divergence in nuclear deployment, agreeing on rising public support while Brett identifies Poland as the primary vanguard. Shayle presses Brett on how public enthusiasm translates into overcoming regulatory hurdles in the US. | |
| The Economics of Nuclear Power and Flawed Market Incentives | 7 | 8 | 7 | 5 | Brett breaks down historical nuclear economics using Point Beach as proof of sub-thousand dollar capital costs, blaming cost-plus utility models for ruining the industry. Shayle demonstrates strong analytical depth by asking for LCOE metrics and questioning why new designs do not target historical price points. | |
| Micro-Reactors and Last Energy's Modular Deployment Vision | 6 | 6 | 5 | 3 | Brett outlines Last Energy's strategy of deploying 20-megawatt reactors using off-the-shelf proven technology to bypass cost overruns. Shayle frames the micro-reactor landscape and asks about regulatory distinctions for smaller footprint systems. |
Statements from this episode (14)
Kugelmass: Most modern small modular reactors are neither small nor truly modular
“Most of them that are thought of as the SMRs in this generation are neither small, some of them are bigger than the original reactors, and they're not modular. Like, they are using traditional construction techniques that maybe have, like, a little bitty bit o…”
Kugelmass: Small modular reactor designs have crept up to 700 megawatts
“The industry started with small being like 200 or 300 megawatts, which is only slightly smaller than the original fleet of reactors that we built out, which was 506 hundred megawatts. And now those very models have climbed up to 405 107 hundred megawatts, and …”
Kugelmass: Global SMR sector is entirely PR, with zero physical construction
“Well, there's virtually nothing actually being built globally anywhere for anything other than the traditional reactors. There's a lot of press announcements. Our company is building stuff, but we can get to that later. And then everything else is very theoret…”
Kugelmass: Poor construction methods and subsidies crippled global nuclear deployment
“The only reason that we don't have 10 times as much nuclear As we do today, both installed, but also being built, is simply because the way that we have decided to build them is terrible. Just overly complex construction, like, awful financial incentives, usua…”
Kugelmass: Advanced chemistry nuclear reactors will not deploy until mid-2030s
“The ones that are most realistic, even by their own admission, by the way, to be built in the next five to 10 years, are the ones that use the traditional proven reactor technology and don't introduce some sort of physics chemistry or material science innovati…”
Kugelmass: No entity has completed NRC licensing for under $1 billion
“In order to get a license, you have to submit a license application. It is at minimum, in the U.S., it's at minimum four years, ah, worth of work. No one has done it for less than one billion dollars. No one has spent less than one billion dollars in licensing…”
Kugelmass: Almost every operating US nuclear plant was grandfathered by the AEC
“Every single other nuclear installation in this country was grandfathered in from the Atomic Energy Commission, the predecessor agency to the NRC.”
Kugelmass: NuScale's NRC certificate is for a deprecated design they discarded
“The things that they got the certificate for are deprecated designs. So no, they don't have like, yeah, like everything that you're seeing is for something they submitted years and years and years ago, and they've totally thrown in the trash at this point also…”
NRC added 1,200 pages of new regulations despite congressional streamlining mandate
“And they took all of the old regulations, the regulations that drive up the costs to ten billion, or to one billion dollars, make it take 10 years, and then they added 1200 pages of new regulations.”
Kugelmass: Any NRC administrative assistant can trigger a two-year project shutdown
“Like, any single person, you could be an administrative assistant at the NRC, at any point can raise a safety flag on any project and shut that project down for two years. This could be someone with no technical training whatsoever. If they come across a piece…”
Kugelmass predicts Poland will lead the world in next-generation nuclear deployment
“I think the most activity that we've seen anywhere, like, once again, including with our own company, is in Poland. You know, there's, like, a confluence of circumstances there between, you know, sustained political and social support. Their energy security is…”
Last Energy has started development on nearly 20 nuclear deals in Poland
“I mean, we've announced almost 20 deals out there now that we've signed and are starting development activities on.”
Kugelmass: Replicating 1968 nuclear blueprints would cut global energy costs fivefold
“If you, if we just like went into those facilities, like looked at the blueprints and the Built them exactly how they were built. We would decarbonize the entire planet, and every human being would have energy that's, like, five times cheaper than they're payi…”