Apr 27, 2023 · 26m · catalyst
The Carbon Copy: A rogue geoengineering startup sparks worry
Stephen Lacey · 8m spoken Alejandro de la Garza · 6m spoken Dr. Holly Buck · 2m spoken Dr. Kevin Surprise · 1m spoken Daniel Waldorf · 1m spoken Andrew Song · 36s spoken Luke Iseman · 26s spoken
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
This episode investigates Make Sunsets, a rogue startup attempting do-it-yourself solar geoengineering by releasing sulfur dioxide balloons into the stratosphere. Through expert interviews and field reporting, the discussion explores the profound scientific risks, commercialization controversies, and regulatory vacuum surrounding uncontrolled planetary climate interventions.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.0 Guest teaching 4.2 Guest disagreement 0.2 Shayle pushing back 0.5
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 23:18 Andrew Song dismisses PhD researchers
In recorded tape, co-founder Andrew Song dismisses academic researchers as slow thinkers needing rogue operators like him to take action like the monkey sent on early rockets.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 11:50 Questioning founder scientific qualificationsLacey pointedly notes the complete absence of any atmospheric science credentials in the founders' backgrounds.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 24:21 Explaining the shift in geoengineering deterrenceDe la Garza explains that public letters and protests previously stopped outdoor experiments in Sweden, but Make Sunsets marks a turning point where rogue actors proceed regardless of norms.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 9:15 Lacey contextualizes planetary rouletteLacey lays out a comprehensive breakdown of stratospheric aerosol injection, explaining maintenance requirements and unpredictable risks like ozone depletion.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Makeshift Chemistry: Cooking Sulfur Dioxide in a Reno Hotel Room | 5 | 4 | 0 | 1 | Lacey sets up the narrative framework and details the chemistry process of burning fungicide to produce sulfur dioxide. De la Garza shares first-hand descriptive reporting from inside the hotel room in Reno. | |
| The Reno Dog Park Balloon Launch | 4 | 3 | 0 | 0 | De la Garza describes the chaotic dog park balloon launch and notes the lack of FAA or federal regulations stopping small-scale releases. Lacey facilitates the storytelling and contextualizes the regulatory loophole. | |
| Commercial Break: Bloom Energy, Engie, and EnergyHub | 6 | 4 | 0 | 1 | Following sponsor breaks, Lacey provides technical context distinguishing carbon dioxide removal from stratospheric aerosol injection and discusses meeting Andrew Song. De la Garza provides character background on the founders. | |
| Commercializing the Stratosphere: Cooling Credits and Expert Scrutiny | 5 | 5 | 0 | 0 | Lacey and De la Garza dissect the Make Sunsets business model of selling ten-dollar cooling credits, supported by expert clips highlighting the unverified scientific claims and risk of delegitimizing the field. | |
| Commercial Break: Bloom Energy and Engie Business Partnerships | 5 | 4 | 0 | 0 | After ad reads, Lacey outlines moral hazards and climate risks, while De la Garza and expert clips discuss geopolitical tensions and the atmospheric consequences of intentional masking. | |
| Governance Vacuum: Public Science versus Silicon Valley Stunts | 5 | 5 | 1 | 1 | Lacey and De la Garza discuss the governance void, comparing startup stunts to soup-throwing protests, and examine whether this rogue launch sets a dangerous precedent for bypassing environmental consensus. |
Statements from this episode (13)
Lacey: Make Sunsets Launched Geoengineering Balloons Near Reno Following Mexico Ban
“Their first experimental launch in the Mexican state of Baja resulted in a swift regulatory response from the Mexican government, but undeterred, they were ready to run another test, and a few weeks ago, they launched some more balloons just outside of Reno, N…”
Song: Inhaling sulfur dioxide is less painful than a bong hit
“Like, if you've ever done a massive bong hit, like, it's, let's, it's not, it sounds, a bong hit is worse than, you know, what you're gonna inhale in terms of the pain.”
Song: Make Sunsets received FAA clearance and a NOTAM for balloon launch
“So we got, got clearance by the FAA. Like, we just got issued a NOTAM.”
De la Garza: No US federal regulation prohibits releasing sulfur balloons
“There's no federal regulation that prohibits someone from putting some of that burned sulfur in a balloon and letting it go.”
De la Garza: Geoengineering researchers universally oppose Make Sunsets launches
“Any single person you talk to in solar geoengineering research, whether they're the most bullish on it or the strongest against it, they all think that what Make Sunset's doing is a bad idea.”
De la Garza: Make Sunsets founder previously led Y Combinator hardware
“Luke Eisman is a serial entrepreneur. He worked at Y Combinator for a while as their head of hardware, director of hardware.”
Dr. Kevin Surprise: Make Sunsets' cooling credit ratio is dubious marketing
“They really, at this point, don't have any way to measure whether or not they're actually releasing the proper amount of sulfur if it's making it into the stratosphere, and it's, you know, easy, like these just round, easy numbers of correlation from, well, on…”
Surprise: Geoengineering researchers cannot control real-world technology deployment
“The experts who are researching this stuff are well-meaning and well-intentioned and are attempting to be very careful, but even with those safeguards that they're trying to impose on themselves, they are not going to have control over how this technology actu…”
Buck: Rogue geoengineering risks shutting down legitimate climate research
“I mean, the main danger is that it inhibits the very real research that we need, because people are too alarmed from the whole topic, or they just write it off, and then the scientists, who I hope would be doing the good work on this, can't continue their work…”
Buck: Tropospheric air pollution currently masks half a degree of warming
“Air pollution in the troposphere that's currently masking quite a bit of warming by some calculations, you know, half a degree, perhaps even more.”
Dr. Buck: Make Sunsets is a performance art stunt, not geoengineering
“I don't really see this effort as relating to geoengineering. Actually, like it's basically performance. You could call it performance art. I don't know if it meets the threshold of art, but it's more of like a performance that is meant to be. A provocation or…”
Make Sunsets founder compares his startup to test monkeys, not astronauts
“When the rubber meets the road, they need someone like me to actually, that's it. The scientists that create the Saturn B rocket didn't go into space. It was some monkey first, right? We're the monkey, we're not an astronaut.”
De la Garza: Environmental opposition no longer stops rogue geoengineering experiments
“Some kind of critical mass has been reached where two years ago, a strongly worded letter from indigenous groups and Greenpeace and other environmental organizations was enough to dissuade the researchers at the time from Doing this kind of thing from, in that…”