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Jun 29, 2023 · 35m · catalyst

The fungus among us

Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins · 19m spoken Shayle Kann · 9m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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In this episode of Catalyst, host Shayle Kann interviews soil biologist Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins to explore how underground mycorrhizal fungal networks cycle 13 gigatons of carbon annually and how regenerative land practices can protect these vital natural carbon sinks.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 29.9% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Shayle as informed peer 3.6 Guest teaching 6.3 Guest disagreement 0.5 Shayle pushing back 0.9
05100:0010:0020:0030:004:22–8:11 · Shayle as informed peer 2/10 Defining Mycorrhizal Fungi and Symbiotic Trade Kann sets up a purely receptive dynamic, admitting he only learned to pronounce mycorrhizal fungi minutes prior. Hawkins provides foundational education on fungal biology, root extension, and reciprocal nutrient-sugar economic trade.8:13–10:33 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Evolutionary History of Fungi and Terrestrial Plant Life Kann asks an open historical question about plant-fungal co-evolution. Hawkins details the 450-million-year fossil record and how fungi facilitated the transition of early aquatic plant life onto dry terrestrial soils.10:33–13:12 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Global Distribution and Major Mycorrhizal Classes Hawkins outlines the ubiquitous global distribution of mycorrhizae across 90% of land plants. She categorizes major structural types including ectomycorrhizae in temperate forests, arbuscular types in crops, and orchid mycorrhizae.13:13–19:18 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 The Biological Mechanics of Fungal Carbon Drawdown Kann probes the physiological mechanics of carbon drawdown and asks for specific quantitative efficiency ranges. Hawkins breaks down cellular sugar exchange, carbohydrate sinks, and the estimated 5 to 20 percent photosynthetic rate enhancement.19:22–23:38 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Segment: Bloom Energy and Engie After mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann asks how the study arrived at the 36% fossil fuel emission figure. Hawkins provides a crucial corrective contextualization, explaining that the 13 Gt pool represents only 0.1% of global soil carbon and addressing common online misinterpretations of additionality.23:40–28:31 · Shayle as informed peer 5/10 Agricultural and Conservation Practices to Protect Fungi Kann pushes back against Hawkins' assertion that mycorrhizae cannot be engineered for additional carbon drawdown, arguing that marginal gains on a 13 Gt base have huge climate value. Hawkins clarifies that the focus must be on behavior change, conservation, and regenerative agriculture rather than speculative technofixes.28:31–32:01 · Shayle as informed peer 5/10 Carbon Permanence and Mineral-Associated Organic Matter Kann connects the permanence of fungal carbon to broader soil organic carbon dynamics. Hawkins refines Kann's terminology from 'sink' to 'pool' and details how fungal exudates bind to mineral particles to create stable soil organic carbon.32:02–34:06 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 Mapping Fungi for Conservation and Carbon Markets Kann explores practical applications for conservation planning and voluntary carbon offsets. Hawkins explains ongoing initiatives to map global fungal diversity and subterranean carbon pools to prioritize land preservation.4:22–8:11 · Guest teaching 7/10 Defining Mycorrhizal Fungi and Symbiotic Trade Kann sets up a purely receptive dynamic, admitting he only learned to pronounce mycorrhizal fungi minutes prior. Hawkins provides foundational education on fungal biology, root extension, and reciprocal nutrient-sugar economic trade.8:13–10:33 · Guest teaching 6/10 Evolutionary History of Fungi and Terrestrial Plant Life Kann asks an open historical question about plant-fungal co-evolution. Hawkins details the 450-million-year fossil record and how fungi facilitated the transition of early aquatic plant life onto dry terrestrial soils.10:33–13:12 · Guest teaching 6/10 Global Distribution and Major Mycorrhizal Classes Hawkins outlines the ubiquitous global distribution of mycorrhizae across 90% of land plants. She categorizes major structural types including ectomycorrhizae in temperate forests, arbuscular types in crops, and orchid mycorrhizae.13:13–19:18 · Guest teaching 6/10 The Biological Mechanics of Fungal Carbon Drawdown Kann probes the physiological mechanics of carbon drawdown and asks for specific quantitative efficiency ranges. Hawkins breaks down cellular sugar exchange, carbohydrate sinks, and the estimated 5 to 20 percent photosynthetic rate enhancement.19:22–23:38 · Guest teaching 8/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Segment: Bloom Energy and Engie After mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann asks how the study arrived at the 36% fossil fuel emission figure. Hawkins provides a crucial corrective contextualization, explaining that the 13 Gt pool represents only 0.1% of global soil carbon and addressing common online misinterpretations of additionality.23:40–28:31 · Guest teaching 6/10 Agricultural and Conservation Practices to Protect Fungi Kann pushes back against Hawkins' assertion that mycorrhizae cannot be engineered for additional carbon drawdown, arguing that marginal gains on a 13 Gt base have huge climate value. Hawkins clarifies that the focus must be on behavior change, conservation, and regenerative agriculture rather than speculative technofixes.28:31–32:01 · Guest teaching 6/10 Carbon Permanence and Mineral-Associated Organic Matter Kann connects the permanence of fungal carbon to broader soil organic carbon dynamics. Hawkins refines Kann's terminology from 'sink' to 'pool' and details how fungal exudates bind to mineral particles to create stable soil organic carbon.32:02–34:06 · Guest teaching 5/10 Mapping Fungi for Conservation and Carbon Markets Kann explores practical applications for conservation planning and voluntary carbon offsets. Hawkins explains ongoing initiatives to map global fungal diversity and subterranean carbon pools to prioritize land preservation.4:22–8:11 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Defining Mycorrhizal Fungi and Symbiotic Trade Kann sets up a purely receptive dynamic, admitting he only learned to pronounce mycorrhizal fungi minutes prior. Hawkins provides foundational education on fungal biology, root extension, and reciprocal nutrient-sugar economic trade.8:13–10:33 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Evolutionary History of Fungi and Terrestrial Plant Life Kann asks an open historical question about plant-fungal co-evolution. Hawkins details the 450-million-year fossil record and how fungi facilitated the transition of early aquatic plant life onto dry terrestrial soils.10:33–13:12 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Global Distribution and Major Mycorrhizal Classes Hawkins outlines the ubiquitous global distribution of mycorrhizae across 90% of land plants. She categorizes major structural types including ectomycorrhizae in temperate forests, arbuscular types in crops, and orchid mycorrhizae.13:13–19:18 · Guest disagreement 0/10 The Biological Mechanics of Fungal Carbon Drawdown Kann probes the physiological mechanics of carbon drawdown and asks for specific quantitative efficiency ranges. Hawkins breaks down cellular sugar exchange, carbohydrate sinks, and the estimated 5 to 20 percent photosynthetic rate enhancement.19:22–23:38 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Segment: Bloom Energy and Engie After mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann asks how the study arrived at the 36% fossil fuel emission figure. Hawkins provides a crucial corrective contextualization, explaining that the 13 Gt pool represents only 0.1% of global soil carbon and addressing common online misinterpretations of additionality.23:40–28:31 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Agricultural and Conservation Practices to Protect Fungi Kann pushes back against Hawkins' assertion that mycorrhizae cannot be engineered for additional carbon drawdown, arguing that marginal gains on a 13 Gt base have huge climate value. Hawkins clarifies that the focus must be on behavior change, conservation, and regenerative agriculture rather than speculative technofixes.28:31–32:01 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Carbon Permanence and Mineral-Associated Organic Matter Kann connects the permanence of fungal carbon to broader soil organic carbon dynamics. Hawkins refines Kann's terminology from 'sink' to 'pool' and details how fungal exudates bind to mineral particles to create stable soil organic carbon.32:02–34:06 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Mapping Fungi for Conservation and Carbon Markets Kann explores practical applications for conservation planning and voluntary carbon offsets. Hawkins explains ongoing initiatives to map global fungal diversity and subterranean carbon pools to prioritize land preservation.4:22–8:11 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Defining Mycorrhizal Fungi and Symbiotic Trade Kann sets up a purely receptive dynamic, admitting he only learned to pronounce mycorrhizal fungi minutes prior. Hawkins provides foundational education on fungal biology, root extension, and reciprocal nutrient-sugar economic trade.8:13–10:33 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Evolutionary History of Fungi and Terrestrial Plant Life Kann asks an open historical question about plant-fungal co-evolution. Hawkins details the 450-million-year fossil record and how fungi facilitated the transition of early aquatic plant life onto dry terrestrial soils.10:33–13:12 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Global Distribution and Major Mycorrhizal Classes Hawkins outlines the ubiquitous global distribution of mycorrhizae across 90% of land plants. She categorizes major structural types including ectomycorrhizae in temperate forests, arbuscular types in crops, and orchid mycorrhizae.13:13–19:18 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 The Biological Mechanics of Fungal Carbon Drawdown Kann probes the physiological mechanics of carbon drawdown and asks for specific quantitative efficiency ranges. Hawkins breaks down cellular sugar exchange, carbohydrate sinks, and the estimated 5 to 20 percent photosynthetic rate enhancement.19:22–23:38 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Mid-Roll Sponsor Segment: Bloom Energy and Engie After mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann asks how the study arrived at the 36% fossil fuel emission figure. Hawkins provides a crucial corrective contextualization, explaining that the 13 Gt pool represents only 0.1% of global soil carbon and addressing common online misinterpretations of additionality.23:40–28:31 · Shayle pushing back 4/10 Agricultural and Conservation Practices to Protect Fungi Kann pushes back against Hawkins' assertion that mycorrhizae cannot be engineered for additional carbon drawdown, arguing that marginal gains on a 13 Gt base have huge climate value. Hawkins clarifies that the focus must be on behavior change, conservation, and regenerative agriculture rather than speculative technofixes.28:31–32:01 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Carbon Permanence and Mineral-Associated Organic Matter Kann connects the permanence of fungal carbon to broader soil organic carbon dynamics. Hawkins refines Kann's terminology from 'sink' to 'pool' and details how fungal exudates bind to mineral particles to create stable soil organic carbon.32:02–34:06 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Mapping Fungi for Conservation and Carbon Markets Kann explores practical applications for conservation planning and voluntary carbon offsets. Hawkins explains ongoing initiatives to map global fungal diversity and subterranean carbon pools to prioritize land preservation.

speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Shayle 44.1% · guest 55.9%0:00 · Shayle 44.1% · guest 55.9%3:00 · Shayle 59.4% · guest 40.6%3:00 · Shayle 59.4% · guest 40.6%6:00 · Shayle 25.7% · guest 74.3%6:00 · Shayle 25.7% · guest 74.3%9:00 · Shayle 15.1% · guest 84.9%9:00 · Shayle 15.1% · guest 84.9%12:00 · Shayle 33.2% · guest 66.8%12:00 · Shayle 33.2% · guest 66.8%15:00 · Shayle 10.1% · guest 89.9%15:00 · Shayle 10.1% · guest 89.9%18:00 · Shayle 39.8% · guest 60.2%18:00 · Shayle 39.8% · guest 60.2%21:00 · Shayle 15.3% · guest 84.7%21:00 · Shayle 15.3% · guest 84.7%24:00 · Shayle 32% · guest 68%24:00 · Shayle 32% · guest 68%27:00 · Shayle 26.7% · guest 73.3%27:00 · Shayle 26.7% · guest 73.3%30:00 · Shayle 17.5% · guest 82.5%30:00 · Shayle 17.5% · guest 82.5%33:00 · Shayle 49.2% · guest 50.8%33:00 · Shayle 49.2% · guest 50.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 25:20 Hawkins rejects techno-manipulation framing

Hawkins gently but firmly dismisses the framing of engineering fungi as a carbon reduction tool, warning against repeating past tree-planting carbon project fiascos and redirecting focus toward conservation.

 Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 23:40 Kann questions why fungal carbon cannot be augmented

Kann directly challenges Hawkins' premise that fungi cannot be leveraged for additional carbon removal, noting that shifting a 13-gigaton baseline by even one gigaton would meaningfully alter the global decarbonization equation.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 21:08 Hawkins deconstructs headline 13 Gt statistic

Hawkins delivers a clear quantitative reality check, demonstrating that the headline 36% fossil fuel emission figure is merely 0.1% of global soil carbon, correcting widespread misinterpretations regarding additionality.

 Shayle holds their own ▶ 23:40 Kann frames fungal sinks within global macro carbon targets

Kann demonstrates command of macro decarbonization math, benchmarking global annual emissions at 50 gigatons and drawing direct strategic parallels to forestry offset mechanics.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicShayle as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementShayle pushing backWhy
Defining Mycorrhizal Fungi and Symbiotic Trade 2700 Kann sets up a purely receptive dynamic, admitting he only learned to pronounce mycorrhizal fungi minutes prior. Hawkins provides foundational education on fungal biology, root extension, and reciprocal nutrient-sugar economic trade.
Evolutionary History of Fungi and Terrestrial Plant Life 3600 Kann asks an open historical question about plant-fungal co-evolution. Hawkins details the 450-million-year fossil record and how fungi facilitated the transition of early aquatic plant life onto dry terrestrial soils.
Global Distribution and Major Mycorrhizal Classes 3600 Hawkins outlines the ubiquitous global distribution of mycorrhizae across 90% of land plants. She categorizes major structural types including ectomycorrhizae in temperate forests, arbuscular types in crops, and orchid mycorrhizae.
The Biological Mechanics of Fungal Carbon Drawdown 4601 Kann probes the physiological mechanics of carbon drawdown and asks for specific quantitative efficiency ranges. Hawkins breaks down cellular sugar exchange, carbohydrate sinks, and the estimated 5 to 20 percent photosynthetic rate enhancement.
Mid-Roll Sponsor Segment: Bloom Energy and Engie 3811 After mid-roll sponsor reads, Kann asks how the study arrived at the 36% fossil fuel emission figure. Hawkins provides a crucial corrective contextualization, explaining that the 13 Gt pool represents only 0.1% of global soil carbon and addressing common online misinterpretations of additionality.
Agricultural and Conservation Practices to Protect Fungi 5624 Kann pushes back against Hawkins' assertion that mycorrhizae cannot be engineered for additional carbon drawdown, arguing that marginal gains on a 13 Gt base have huge climate value. Hawkins clarifies that the focus must be on behavior change, conservation, and regenerative agriculture rather than speculative technofixes.
Carbon Permanence and Mineral-Associated Organic Matter 5611 Kann connects the permanence of fungal carbon to broader soil organic carbon dynamics. Hawkins refines Kann's terminology from 'sink' to 'pool' and details how fungal exudates bind to mineral particles to create stable soil organic carbon.
Mapping Fungi for Conservation and Carbon Markets 4500 Kann explores practical applications for conservation planning and voluntary carbon offsets. Hawkins explains ongoing initiatives to map global fungal diversity and subterranean carbon pools to prioritize land preservation.

Statements from this episode (9)

Assertion Supported
Kann: Underground fungal networks hold a 13-gigaton carbon sequestration pool
“There is an underground network of fungi that partner with plants that results in a, about a 13 gigaton pool of carbon sequestration underground. That's equivalent to about 36% of the annual emissions from fossil fuels in the world.”
Shayle Kann Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 2:13
Assertion Supported
Hawkins: Nearly every plant root on Earth relies on fungal symbiosis
“Hardly a root on the planet is actually just a root. It's very often this association.”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 5:18
Insight
Hawkins: Plant-fungal symbiosis acts as an economic market with resource cheaters
“So describing it as this reciprocal exchange where, like in our own economy, you can get cheetahs you can get fungi that give more than they take or take more than they give. And, you know, like with everything it seems to depend. It depends on the partners in…”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 7:38
Assertion Supported
Hawkins: Mycorrhizal fungi were colonizing land plants 450 million years ago
“We know from the fossil record that by the time plants moved out of an aquatic environment, so the sea, onto land, we know that this partnership already existed. So the fungi are really, really old. How old exactly? We don't know. But we know by about four hun…”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 8:29
Assertion Supported
Hawkins: Fungal networks boost host plant photosynthetic rates by up to 20%
“You can have a boost of five to 20% of the plant's photosynthetic rate, so amount of CO₂ per meter squared per second.”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 18:55
Assertion Supported
Hawkins: The 13-gigaton fungal carbon pool is just 0.1% of soil carbon
“So I think if you take, you know, all the carbon that is in the soil I did a little calculation a little bit earlier, and we come up with a massive amount, if we express it in CO₂ equivalents, it's nearly 9000. And our mycorrhizal pool is about 13 gigatons o…”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 21:29
Insight
Hawkins: Mycorrhizal fungi cannot be engineered to draw down additional carbon dioxide
“It's not like we can somehow use mycorrhizae To additionally now draw down more CO two than they are already.”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 22:58
Opinion
Hawkins: Climate efforts should preserve fungal habitats rather than engineer fungi
“I don't think it's so much about it being some kind of carbon reduction system that we can manipulate so much as it's about our behavior change so that we provide conditions that encourage the growth of these mycorrhizal fungi so they can continue to draw down…”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 26:19
Opinion
Hawkins: Mapping fungal diversity provides a crucial tool for carbon offsets
“I think there's a lot of exciting potential there because on the cards are various sorts of maps that we can use in conservation planning. So, you know, when you're planning a conservation area, you will usually look at where you've got high biodiversity. You …”
Dr. Heidi Jane Hawkins Jun 29, 2023 ▶ 32:35
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