Apr 4, 2024 · 37m · catalyst
The world of battery recycling
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gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions
Host Shayle Khan and Columbia University's Dr. Dan Steingart examine the chemical engineering processes, startup business strategies, and structural economic headwinds shaping the nascent lithium-ion battery recycling industry.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 20.2% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.2 Guest teaching 5.1 Guest disagreement 1.7 Shayle pushing back 2.2
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 13:05 Guest invites critics to come with knives over solvent extraction
The guest takes a combative stance defending solvent extraction OPEX advantages over conventional precipitation, daring industry listeners to come at him with knives.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 8:45 Host challenges pyrometallurgy cost assumptionsThe host refuses the guest's framing of pyrometallurgy as simply cheap, challenging him with the fact that smelting operations require billions in capex.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:45 Guest details piranha solution kineticsThe guest delivers a deep technical explanation of using piranha acid (sulfuric acid and hydrogen peroxide) to compress leach residence times from 90 days down to hours.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 18:40 Host corrects guest on Redwood Materials downstream strategyThe host demonstrates superior industry intelligence by correcting the guest's claim that only Ascend is moving downstream to cathode active materials, pointing out Redwood is doing the same.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Setting the Stage: Recycling Capacity vs. Underlying Technology | 5 | 5 | 1 | 3 | The host recaps industry discussions on recycling overcapacity and intervenes to remind the guest about pack disassembly prior to cell digestion. The guest explains pack handling, latent cell energy, and the hazards of zombie lithium. | |
| Pyrometallurgy: High-Heat Smelting and Environmental Trade-offs | 6 | 4 | 2 | 4 | The guest explains pyrometallurgical smelting as the cheap but dirty baseline. The host pushes back by pointing out that smelting requires massive capital expenditure in the billions of dollars. | |
| Hydrometallurgy, Acid Leaching, and Solvent Extraction | 5 | 6 | 2 | 1 | The guest gives an in-depth chemical breakdown of hydrometallurgy, piranha acid leaching, pH precipitation, and solvent extraction. The host validates the points by referencing his own work on copper solvent extraction. | |
| Industry Landscape: Redwood Materials, Ascend Elements, and Scrap Reliance | 6 | 5 | 2 | 5 | The guest outlines the corporate landscape and highlights Ascend Elements' cathode focus. The host pushes back and corrects him, noting that Redwood Materials is also moving downstream into cathode manufacturing. | |
| Mid-Roll Sponsor Break: Bloom Energy and Engie | 3 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Following mid-roll sponsor reads, the host asks about Li-Cycle's positioning, and the guest explains their conservative Hatch-derived metallurgical DNA. | |
| Unit Economics, Commodity Price Volatility, and Tolling Models | 6 | 5 | 2 | 2 | The host analyzes unit economics amid collapsing nickel market prices. The guest agrees and elaborates on the brutal realities of recyclers being squeezed as mere tolling operators. | |
| The Economic Challenge of LFP and the Promise of Direct Recycling | 6 | 6 | 2 | 2 | The host breaks down the economic deficit of recycling low-value LFP chemistry compared to NMC. The guest cites academic literature on LFP unit economics and explains why direct recycling is its only viable path. | |
| Anode Recycling: Graphite, Silicon, and Lithium Recovery | 5 | 6 | 1 | 1 | The host pivots the conversation to anode materials, prompting the guest to deliver an educational overview of the structural difficulties of recycling graphite versus silicon and lithium. | |
| Long-Term Outlook on Recycling Economics and Mining Incumbents | 5 | 5 | 2 | 1 | The host synthesizes the guest's macro thesis regarding business skepticism. The guest explains why incumbent mining conglomerates stay out of recycling due to their core ground-asset models. |
Statements from this episode (14)
Kann: Battery recycling capacity will significantly outpace available feedstock in coming years
“It appears there's going to be a pretty huge oversupply of recycling capacity relative to the number of recyclable batteries in coming years. In other words, not a great time to be a battery recycling company and especially challenging to be a subscale one.”
Steingart: Grading spent EV battery cells for second-life applications is not bankable
“It's typically pretty, pretty difficult to justify the cost of grading these cells and estimating their second life. We do a fair bit of that in my lab, and I have to say to date, I think that, that it's probably not a bankable effort yet. I'm not sure that ev…”
Steingart: Pyrometallurgy is cheaper and more reliable than hydrometallurgy
“They are but they give you a guaranteed result, and it is generally cheaper than the cousin that, that I like more, which is hydrometallurgy.”
Steingart: Pyrometallurgy represents majority of battery recycling in China
“In my experience, or at least in my conversations with Chinese recyclers in, in China, where there are fewer local restrictions on having pyro in certain provinces. Pyro is, as I understand it now the majority of recycling methods.”
Steingart: Hydromet battery recyclers use piranha solution to cut leaching time
“What most recyclers use now for hydromet digestion is, is a combination of sulfuric acid with hydrogen peroxide for a bit of kick H two O two. And this is really nasty stuff. It's called piranha, because it eats through anything, and, ah, it reduces the reside…”
Steingart: Redwood, Ascend, and Li-Cycle rely on scrap exceeding 20%
“Currently, all three of these companies are living off of gigafactory scrap, which is exceptionally high, over, over 20%, as I understand it.”
Steingart: Battery recyclers will face a lean period as scrap rates drop
“I worry about the business case here because the gigafactories have every incentive in the world to minimize this amount of scrap, and so at the same time, we don't want batteries to die, so every recycler is going to have a lean period as scrap rates go down.…”
Steingart: Ascend Elements avoids solvent extraction with Hydro-to-Cathode process
“In terms of on the opposite end, in terms of innovating on a well understood process, Ascend Elements is has something they call hydro to cathode. That's a process in which they cleverly don't
[1078] Use solvent extraction because they say, hey, most of what t…”
Steingart: Li-Cycle's realpolitik strategy targets commodity metal sulfates for cathode makers
“So life cycle is, is the real politic of the three. Life cycle is born from hatch DNA. Hatch has been making mining electro primary extraction, electro winning equipment for a very long time. And life cycle says the world wants sulfate metal sulfate, excuse me…”
Steingart: Battery recycling is a tolling operation without supply ownership
“I think the brutal truth is, is that it's a cost center, and that inputs, recycled inputs, are ultimately a tolling operation unless Redwood can pull off owning the supply. Because if Redwood can pull off owning the supply, then it owns the mine of the future,…”
Steingart: Direct recycling is likely the only viable path for LFP batteries
“I think if LFP recycling is going to have a shot, it's going to be on a direct recycling route, and for those that know me and get a beer with me after conferences, they're probably doing a spit take, because I'm pretty skeptical of direct recycling in a lot o…”
Steingart: Graphite battery recycling is hard to justify economically and technically
“Long story short, graphite recycling is in its infancy, and it's pretty difficult to justify from a purity and homogeneity basis, and, you know, frankly, there, there's plenty of graphite in the ground, so, so it's hard to justify from an economic basis recycl…”
Steingart: Mining Giants Lack Economic Incentive to Scale Battery Recycling
“So, in terms of their unit economics, it doesn't make any sense For a mining company to involve itself in recycling in a big way in twenty-twenty-four, both because all of the recycling material coming in, or most of it is, is scrap, and, ah, what's not scrap …”
Steingart: Battery Recycling Margin Gains Will Be Quickly Eroded by Price Competition
“So, so, in a perfectly efficient market, recycling is just a tolling operation, where it is, will exist to an extent that it can keep its costs neutral, and every time there's an advance that lowers the cost of recycling, there will be a year or two where that…”