Apr 18, 2024 · 40m · catalyst

How an obscure, 100-year old law is disrupting U.S. energy

Colin Grabow · 27m spoken Shayle Kann · 8m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

gold bands on the timeline = statements, start to end. Hover to read, click to jump. CC turns on captions

In this episode of Catalyst, host Shayle Kann and Cato Institute fellow Colin Grabow examine how the century-old Jones Act distorts U.S. fuel logistics, inflates shipping costs, and creates substantial roadblocks for offshore wind development.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 22% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Shayle as informed peer 3.7 Guest teaching 6.1 Guest disagreement 1.4 Shayle pushing back 0.6
05100:0015:0030:002:49–8:00 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 Origins and Historical Context of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 Colin walks through the origin of Section 27 of the 1920 Merchant Marine Act and historical loophole-closing. Shayle demonstrates domain expertise by drawing an apt comparison to modern solar panel tariff circumvention cases in Southeast Asia.8:01–11:46 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Economics of U.S. Shipbuilding and Cost Disparities Colin details the severe cost escalation in domestic shipbuilding from a 20 percent premium a century ago to 400-500 percent today. When Shayle probes why this occurs, Colin explains capital equipment economies of scale and dispels the misconception that high American wages are the primary cause.11:47–15:35 · Shayle as informed peer 5/10 Domestic Freight Mode Shift and Environmental Ramifications Shayle interjects clean-tech expertise by raising the greenhouse gas emissions per ton-mile impact of shifting freight from maritime routes to road trucking. Colin agrees and notes that less than two percent of domestic freight moves by ship due to high costs.15:36–21:30 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Distortions in U.S. Fuel and Liquefied Natural Gas Markets Colin outlines the distortion in LNG and crude markets where East Coast refineries import from Africa rather than the Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico buys gas from Nigeria and Spain. Shayle is taken aback when learning the US Virgin Islands is exempt from the law while Puerto Rico is strictly bound.21:31–24:05 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 Challenges Posed to the Emergent Offshore Wind Industry Shayle directs the focus toward offshore wind deployment barriers. Colin explains how the lack of Jones Act-compliant wind turbine installation vessels forced Dominion Energy to stage installation operations out of Canada, turning weeks of work into nearly a year.24:09–28:52 · Shayle as informed peer 5/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy On-Site Power Following the sponsor break, Shayle synthesizes the policy options between revitalizing US shipbuilding through subsidies versus full repeal. Colin firmly argues against industrial subsidies, citing four decades of failed construction differential subsidies and military captive market distortions.28:52–33:51 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Political Dynamics and Maritime Special Interest Lobbying Colin illustrates the classic public choice dynamic of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs, citing the fierce lobbying of maritime associations and political retaliation faced by Hawaii Representative Ed Case. Shayle is surprised to learn Alaska has a statutory gubernatorial duty to lobby for repeal despite its delegation backing the act.33:52–36:00 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Historical Government Studies on Economic Impact Shayle asks whether government bodies have quantified the economic toll. Colin exposes flaws in past International Trade Commission reports, which artificially minimized reported damages by multiplying cost deltas against shipping volumes that the law had already crushed.36:01–39:40 · Shayle as informed peer 3/10 Future Reform Outlook and Conclusion of Interview Shayle challenges Colin on whether reform advocates are merely shouting into the wind against an entrenched century-old statute. Colin makes a case for emerging momentum driven by China competition, heavy salvage deficits highlighted by the Baltimore bridge collapse, and obvious LNG market absurdities.2:49–8:00 · Guest teaching 6/10 Origins and Historical Context of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 Colin walks through the origin of Section 27 of the 1920 Merchant Marine Act and historical loophole-closing. Shayle demonstrates domain expertise by drawing an apt comparison to modern solar panel tariff circumvention cases in Southeast Asia.8:01–11:46 · Guest teaching 6/10 Economics of U.S. Shipbuilding and Cost Disparities Colin details the severe cost escalation in domestic shipbuilding from a 20 percent premium a century ago to 400-500 percent today. When Shayle probes why this occurs, Colin explains capital equipment economies of scale and dispels the misconception that high American wages are the primary cause.11:47–15:35 · Guest teaching 5/10 Domestic Freight Mode Shift and Environmental Ramifications Shayle interjects clean-tech expertise by raising the greenhouse gas emissions per ton-mile impact of shifting freight from maritime routes to road trucking. Colin agrees and notes that less than two percent of domestic freight moves by ship due to high costs.15:36–21:30 · Guest teaching 7/10 Distortions in U.S. Fuel and Liquefied Natural Gas Markets Colin outlines the distortion in LNG and crude markets where East Coast refineries import from Africa rather than the Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico buys gas from Nigeria and Spain. Shayle is taken aback when learning the US Virgin Islands is exempt from the law while Puerto Rico is strictly bound.21:31–24:05 · Guest teaching 6/10 Challenges Posed to the Emergent Offshore Wind Industry Shayle directs the focus toward offshore wind deployment barriers. Colin explains how the lack of Jones Act-compliant wind turbine installation vessels forced Dominion Energy to stage installation operations out of Canada, turning weeks of work into nearly a year.24:09–28:52 · Guest teaching 6/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy On-Site Power Following the sponsor break, Shayle synthesizes the policy options between revitalizing US shipbuilding through subsidies versus full repeal. Colin firmly argues against industrial subsidies, citing four decades of failed construction differential subsidies and military captive market distortions.28:52–33:51 · Guest teaching 7/10 Political Dynamics and Maritime Special Interest Lobbying Colin illustrates the classic public choice dynamic of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs, citing the fierce lobbying of maritime associations and political retaliation faced by Hawaii Representative Ed Case. Shayle is surprised to learn Alaska has a statutory gubernatorial duty to lobby for repeal despite its delegation backing the act.33:52–36:00 · Guest teaching 7/10 Historical Government Studies on Economic Impact Shayle asks whether government bodies have quantified the economic toll. Colin exposes flaws in past International Trade Commission reports, which artificially minimized reported damages by multiplying cost deltas against shipping volumes that the law had already crushed.36:01–39:40 · Guest teaching 5/10 Future Reform Outlook and Conclusion of Interview Shayle challenges Colin on whether reform advocates are merely shouting into the wind against an entrenched century-old statute. Colin makes a case for emerging momentum driven by China competition, heavy salvage deficits highlighted by the Baltimore bridge collapse, and obvious LNG market absurdities.2:49–8:00 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Origins and Historical Context of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 Colin walks through the origin of Section 27 of the 1920 Merchant Marine Act and historical loophole-closing. Shayle demonstrates domain expertise by drawing an apt comparison to modern solar panel tariff circumvention cases in Southeast Asia.8:01–11:46 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Economics of U.S. Shipbuilding and Cost Disparities Colin details the severe cost escalation in domestic shipbuilding from a 20 percent premium a century ago to 400-500 percent today. When Shayle probes why this occurs, Colin explains capital equipment economies of scale and dispels the misconception that high American wages are the primary cause.11:47–15:35 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Domestic Freight Mode Shift and Environmental Ramifications Shayle interjects clean-tech expertise by raising the greenhouse gas emissions per ton-mile impact of shifting freight from maritime routes to road trucking. Colin agrees and notes that less than two percent of domestic freight moves by ship due to high costs.15:36–21:30 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Distortions in U.S. Fuel and Liquefied Natural Gas Markets Colin outlines the distortion in LNG and crude markets where East Coast refineries import from Africa rather than the Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico buys gas from Nigeria and Spain. Shayle is taken aback when learning the US Virgin Islands is exempt from the law while Puerto Rico is strictly bound.21:31–24:05 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Challenges Posed to the Emergent Offshore Wind Industry Shayle directs the focus toward offshore wind deployment barriers. Colin explains how the lack of Jones Act-compliant wind turbine installation vessels forced Dominion Energy to stage installation operations out of Canada, turning weeks of work into nearly a year.24:09–28:52 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy On-Site Power Following the sponsor break, Shayle synthesizes the policy options between revitalizing US shipbuilding through subsidies versus full repeal. Colin firmly argues against industrial subsidies, citing four decades of failed construction differential subsidies and military captive market distortions.28:52–33:51 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Political Dynamics and Maritime Special Interest Lobbying Colin illustrates the classic public choice dynamic of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs, citing the fierce lobbying of maritime associations and political retaliation faced by Hawaii Representative Ed Case. Shayle is surprised to learn Alaska has a statutory gubernatorial duty to lobby for repeal despite its delegation backing the act.33:52–36:00 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Historical Government Studies on Economic Impact Shayle asks whether government bodies have quantified the economic toll. Colin exposes flaws in past International Trade Commission reports, which artificially minimized reported damages by multiplying cost deltas against shipping volumes that the law had already crushed.36:01–39:40 · Guest disagreement 2/10 Future Reform Outlook and Conclusion of Interview Shayle challenges Colin on whether reform advocates are merely shouting into the wind against an entrenched century-old statute. Colin makes a case for emerging momentum driven by China competition, heavy salvage deficits highlighted by the Baltimore bridge collapse, and obvious LNG market absurdities.2:49–8:00 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Origins and Historical Context of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 Colin walks through the origin of Section 27 of the 1920 Merchant Marine Act and historical loophole-closing. Shayle demonstrates domain expertise by drawing an apt comparison to modern solar panel tariff circumvention cases in Southeast Asia.8:01–11:46 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Economics of U.S. Shipbuilding and Cost Disparities Colin details the severe cost escalation in domestic shipbuilding from a 20 percent premium a century ago to 400-500 percent today. When Shayle probes why this occurs, Colin explains capital equipment economies of scale and dispels the misconception that high American wages are the primary cause.11:47–15:35 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Domestic Freight Mode Shift and Environmental Ramifications Shayle interjects clean-tech expertise by raising the greenhouse gas emissions per ton-mile impact of shifting freight from maritime routes to road trucking. Colin agrees and notes that less than two percent of domestic freight moves by ship due to high costs.15:36–21:30 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Distortions in U.S. Fuel and Liquefied Natural Gas Markets Colin outlines the distortion in LNG and crude markets where East Coast refineries import from Africa rather than the Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico buys gas from Nigeria and Spain. Shayle is taken aback when learning the US Virgin Islands is exempt from the law while Puerto Rico is strictly bound.21:31–24:05 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Challenges Posed to the Emergent Offshore Wind Industry Shayle directs the focus toward offshore wind deployment barriers. Colin explains how the lack of Jones Act-compliant wind turbine installation vessels forced Dominion Energy to stage installation operations out of Canada, turning weeks of work into nearly a year.24:09–28:52 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy On-Site Power Following the sponsor break, Shayle synthesizes the policy options between revitalizing US shipbuilding through subsidies versus full repeal. Colin firmly argues against industrial subsidies, citing four decades of failed construction differential subsidies and military captive market distortions.28:52–33:51 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Political Dynamics and Maritime Special Interest Lobbying Colin illustrates the classic public choice dynamic of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs, citing the fierce lobbying of maritime associations and political retaliation faced by Hawaii Representative Ed Case. Shayle is surprised to learn Alaska has a statutory gubernatorial duty to lobby for repeal despite its delegation backing the act.33:52–36:00 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Historical Government Studies on Economic Impact Shayle asks whether government bodies have quantified the economic toll. Colin exposes flaws in past International Trade Commission reports, which artificially minimized reported damages by multiplying cost deltas against shipping volumes that the law had already crushed.36:01–39:40 · Shayle pushing back 2/10 Future Reform Outlook and Conclusion of Interview Shayle challenges Colin on whether reform advocates are merely shouting into the wind against an entrenched century-old statute. Colin makes a case for emerging momentum driven by China competition, heavy salvage deficits highlighted by the Baltimore bridge collapse, and obvious LNG market absurdities.

speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Shayle 62.4% · guest 37.6%0:00 · Shayle 62.4% · guest 37.6%3:00 · Shayle 0.6% · guest 99.4%3:00 · Shayle 0.6% · guest 99.4%6:00 · Shayle 42.1% · guest 57.9%6:00 · Shayle 42.1% · guest 57.9%9:00 · Shayle 16.3% · guest 83.7%9:00 · Shayle 16.3% · guest 83.7%12:00 · Shayle 32.3% · guest 67.7%12:00 · Shayle 32.3% · guest 67.7%15:00 · Shayle 18.4% · guest 81.6%15:00 · Shayle 18.4% · guest 81.6%18:00 · Shayle 10.3% · guest 89.7%18:00 · Shayle 10.3% · guest 89.7%21:00 · Shayle 9.7% · guest 90.3%21:00 · Shayle 9.7% · guest 90.3%24:00 · Shayle 44.7% · guest 55.3%24:00 · Shayle 44.7% · guest 55.3%27:00 · Shayle 18.1% · guest 81.9%27:00 · Shayle 18.1% · guest 81.9%30:00 · Shayle 1.8% · guest 98.2%30:00 · Shayle 1.8% · guest 98.2%33:00 · Shayle 8.7% · guest 91.3%33:00 · Shayle 8.7% · guest 91.3%36:00 · Shayle 10.4% · guest 89.6%36:00 · Shayle 10.4% · guest 89.6%39:00 · Shayle 62.1% · guest 37.9%39:00 · Shayle 62.1% · guest 37.9%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 37:40 Colin slams domestic energy transport absurdity

Colin passionately denounces the policy as insane and ridiculous, arguing that preventing Americans from accessing domestic LNG requires no deep analysis to recognize as an outright failure.

Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 36:01 Host questions whether guest is tilting at windmills

Shayle bluntly challenges the feasibility of Colin's mission, asking if he is just shouting into the wind given the law has survived over a century of opposition.

Biggest teaching moment ▶ 20:00 Alaska crude arbitrage via exempt Virgin Islands

Colin details how shipping Alaskan crude twice the distance around South America to the exempt Virgin Islands was one-third the cost of shipping to the US Gulf Coast, catching the host completely off guard regarding territorial exemptions.

Shayle holds their own ▶ 13:49 Host connects shipping decline to road freight emissions

Shayle introduces rigorous energy and climate domain expertise by quantifying the environmental penalty of shifting waterborne cargo onto high-emission trucking networks.

the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicShayle as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementShayle pushing backWhy
Origins and Historical Context of the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 4610 Colin walks through the origin of Section 27 of the 1920 Merchant Marine Act and historical loophole-closing. Shayle demonstrates domain expertise by drawing an apt comparison to modern solar panel tariff circumvention cases in Southeast Asia.
Economics of U.S. Shipbuilding and Cost Disparities 3611 Colin details the severe cost escalation in domestic shipbuilding from a 20 percent premium a century ago to 400-500 percent today. When Shayle probes why this occurs, Colin explains capital equipment economies of scale and dispels the misconception that high American wages are the primary cause.
Domestic Freight Mode Shift and Environmental Ramifications 5510 Shayle interjects clean-tech expertise by raising the greenhouse gas emissions per ton-mile impact of shifting freight from maritime routes to road trucking. Colin agrees and notes that less than two percent of domestic freight moves by ship due to high costs.
Distortions in U.S. Fuel and Liquefied Natural Gas Markets 3711 Colin outlines the distortion in LNG and crude markets where East Coast refineries import from Africa rather than the Gulf Coast, and Puerto Rico buys gas from Nigeria and Spain. Shayle is taken aback when learning the US Virgin Islands is exempt from the law while Puerto Rico is strictly bound.
Challenges Posed to the Emergent Offshore Wind Industry 4610 Shayle directs the focus toward offshore wind deployment barriers. Colin explains how the lack of Jones Act-compliant wind turbine installation vessels forced Dominion Energy to stage installation operations out of Canada, turning weeks of work into nearly a year.
Sponsor Message: Bloom Energy On-Site Power 5621 Following the sponsor break, Shayle synthesizes the policy options between revitalizing US shipbuilding through subsidies versus full repeal. Colin firmly argues against industrial subsidies, citing four decades of failed construction differential subsidies and military captive market distortions.
Political Dynamics and Maritime Special Interest Lobbying 3720 Colin illustrates the classic public choice dynamic of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs, citing the fierce lobbying of maritime associations and political retaliation faced by Hawaii Representative Ed Case. Shayle is surprised to learn Alaska has a statutory gubernatorial duty to lobby for repeal despite its delegation backing the act.
Historical Government Studies on Economic Impact 3720 Shayle asks whether government bodies have quantified the economic toll. Colin exposes flaws in past International Trade Commission reports, which artificially minimized reported damages by multiplying cost deltas against shipping volumes that the law had already crushed.
Future Reform Outlook and Conclusion of Interview 3522 Shayle challenges Colin on whether reform advocates are merely shouting into the wind against an entrenched century-old statute. Colin makes a case for emerging momentum driven by China competition, heavy salvage deficits highlighted by the Baltimore bridge collapse, and obvious LNG market absurdities.

Statements from this episode (16)

Assertion Supported
Grabow: Jones Act requires domestic ships be US-built, owned, and crewed
“The Jones Act basically mandates that if you're going to transport something by water within the United States, you have to use a vessel that meets four conditions. The vessel has to be flagged and registered in the United States. It has to be at least 75% own…”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 3:20
Assertion Supported
Grabow: 1920 Merchant Marine Act aimed to offload surplus WWI ships
“The United States built a lot of ships during the war. Most of them were delivered after the war was over with. The government found hundreds of, had hundreds of ships on its hands they didn't know what to do with. So they passed the Merchant Marine Act. Prima…”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 6:32
Assertion Supported
Grabow: US-built container ships cost five times more than international builds
“By the 19 thirties, it was up to a 50% premium for U.S. Built ships. By the 19 fifties, a U.S. Built ship was double the cost of one built abroad. By the 19 nineties, it was triple the cost of one built abroad, and today, a U.S. Built container ship is somewhe…”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 8:49
Assertion Partly supported
Grabow: Foreign shipyard workers earn more than Americans despite building cheaper ships
“Well, the data suggests, actually, that workers in South Korea and Japan and Europe, they make more than Americans, and yet the ships are still significantly cheaper, so that's interesting.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 11:35
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Ships transport only about 2% of US freight
“If you look at The data, something like only two percent of freight in the United States is transported by ships. You add in barges, that's like another four percent. So we're well under 10% for water transport in the U.S.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 13:18
Assertion Supported
Grabow: East Coast refineries import more foreign oil than domestic oil
“East Coast refineries, say, in the Mid-Atlantic they import more oil from places like Libya or the Middle East or Nigeria than they do from Texas, from the Gulf Coast.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 16:15
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Zero Jones Act-Compliant LNG Tankers Exist in the United States
“We can't transport it by water to other parts of the United States because there are no LNG tankers that comply with the Jones Act.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 17:26
Assertion Supported
Grabow: U.S. LNG Tankers Cost $700M to Build Versus Under $200M in South Korea
“A few years ago, the Wall Street Journal estimated that to build an LNG tanker in the United States would cost around seven hundred million dollars, whereas at that time you could buy one for, I think, less than two hundred million in South Korea.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 18:58
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Hawaii imports LPG from West Africa due to domestic ship shortage
“Hawaii uses LPG, and they import it from as far away as West Africa because they can't get it from the U.S. Mainland because, again, there are no ships to transport it.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 19:28
Assertion Supported
Grabow: U.S. lacks any Jones Act-compliant offshore wind installation vessels
“But in the United States, we can't Do that because we don't have any vessels wind turbine installation vessels that comply with the Jones Act.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 22:34
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Dominion staged Virginia offshore wind pilot from Canada
“And in fact this is what Dominion Energy did for their offshore wind demonstration project off the coast of Virginia a few years ago They installed, I think, two turbines, and they did the whole, they ran the whole thing out of Canada, I think St. John, Canad…”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 23:23
Assertion Supported
Grabow: U.S. commercial shipbuilding has been globally uncompetitive since the Civil War
“And U.S. Shipbuilding has been uncompetitive literally, you know, since roughly the end of the Civil War. So, you know, a hundred, a 150 years, something like that.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 27:53
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Military contracts, not the Jones Act, generate most U.S. shipyard revenue
“Navy contracts, which this is unrelated to the Jones Act, but they also have you know, Navy and military contracts are really their bread and butter. Jones Act is kind of a sideshow for most of them. The majority of revenue is from government contracts.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 28:27
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Alaska law mandates lobbying against Jones Act despite delegation's support
“It is written into Alaskan state law, it is a duty of the governor to lobby for the Jones Act's repeal, and yet all three members of the Alaska delegation are pro-Jones Act.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 31:52
Assertion Supported
Grabow: 1980s GAO study found Jones Act cost Alaska 2% of income
“And the GAO, they did a study back in the eighties about the cost to Alaska with the Jones Act. They concluded that it cost Alaskans, it was something like the equivalent of two percent of the state's income was the cost of the Jones Act.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 34:39
Assertion Supported
Grabow: Foreign nations have larger salvage cranes and vessels than the US
“Foreigners have much bigger cranes and more capable vessels for doing that kind of work than we do.”
Colin Grabow Apr 18, 2024 ▶ 37:21
Made with StarZero

Turn any episode into a week of clips.

This entire site, over 200 episodes transcribed, diarized, checked and made playable, runs on the StarZero media pipeline. Drop in your own episode and the podcast clipper finds the moments worth sharing, cuts them, captions them, and reframes them for every feed.