Apr 17, 2025 · 38m · catalyst
Serving data center load with carbon capture
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In this episode of Catalyst, host Shail Khan and Carbon Direct Chief Scientist Dr. Julio Friedmann explore whether natural gas generation paired with carbon capture and sequestration can realistically decarbonize the skyrocketing power demands of hyperscale data centers.
How this conversation actually went
Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 27.5% of the talking time here. How this is scored →
Shayle as informed peer 5.4 Guest teaching 3.5 Guest disagreement 1.8 Shayle pushing back 2.5
speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 11:40 Julio rejects the dying industry framing
Julio bristles at the idea that CCS merely props up fossil fuels rather than taking immediate responsibility for gas generation that is already being constructed.
Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 35:27 Shayle clarifies congressional letter scopeShayle pushes back on Julio's assertion regarding congressional support by pointing out that the letter protected a broad basket of clean energy credits rather than explicitly naming Section 45Q.
Biggest teaching moment ▶ 9:00 Julio explains the dollar-per-ton versus dollar-per-MWh dynamicJulio educates the audience and host on why natural gas CCS appears expensive per ton of captured CO2 due to dilute flue streams, but translates into a very low LCOE dollar-per-megawatt-hour adder.
Shayle holds their own ▶ 9:39 Shayle synthesizes the LCOE adder mechanicsShayle proves his domain mastery by cleanly restructuring and validating Julio's technical explanation into power market terms comparing coal versus gas LCOE impact.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
| Chapter | Topic | Shayle as informed peer | Guest teaching | Guest disagreement | Shayle pushing back | Why |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Welcome and Framing the Hyperscaler Energy Challenge | 6 | 3 | 1 | 2 | Shayle frames the episode around hyperscaler energy needs and decarbonization tensions, demonstrating solid industry knowledge about turbine backlogs. Julio elaborates smoothly on the speed versus carbon hierarchy of priorities without conflict. | |
| Technical History and Economic Realities of Gas CCS | 7 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Julio educates on the technical paradox of gas CCS being expensive on a dollar-per-ton basis but cheaper on a dollar-per-megawatt-hour basis due to high energy density and low parasitic load. Shayle actively summarizes and tests his understanding of the LCOE adder implications. | |
| Moving from Capture Ready to Capture Committed Projects | 6 | 4 | 4 | 5 | Shayle presses Julio on whether capture ready is just kicking the can down the road like hydrogen-ready gas turbines. Julio pushes back by noting gas plants are getting built regardless, corrects a unit slip, and emphasizes the need to move from capture-ready to capture-committed. | |
| Cost Adders, Siting Realities, and CO2 Transport Options | 6 | 5 | 2 | 3 | Shayle explores the intersection of power grid interconnection constraints and geologic carbon storage siting. Julio provides detailed geographic nuances and highlights alternative transportation modes like rail and barge. | |
| Mid-roll Sponsor Messages on Energy and Grid Solutions | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | Mid-roll segment featuring sponsor messages for Bloom Energy, Engie, and EnergyHub. | |
| International Landscape and Vertically Integrated Gas-CCS Offerings | 6 | 4 | 1 | 2 | Shayle asks about international momentum and whether integrated OEM/EPC packages will emerge. Julio breaks down international initiatives in Canada, the UK, the Middle East, and Asia, and details integrated package offerings. | |
| Class VI Permitting Progress and Local Community Engagement | 5 | 4 | 1 | 1 | Shayle asks for practical updates on Class VI permitting bottlenecks and community reception. Julio explains the bipartisan infrastructure law funding impact, state primacy dynamics, and community benefit plans. | |
| Federal Policy Uncertainty and the Durability of Section 45Q | 7 | 3 | 3 | 4 | Shayle and Julio discuss political uncertainties surrounding DOE rescissions and the Section 45Q tax credit. Shayle provides a sharp correction noting that congressional letters defended broad energy credits rather than specifically 45Q. |
Statements from this episode (18)
Khan: Data centers are driving planned natural gas build-out globally
“Anyway, we have talked before a little bit about the build-out of natural gas that is planned in the United States and a bunch of other countries that is being driven by data centers.”
Khan: Tech hyperscalers driving power demand lead corporate decarbonization commitments
“But what about the fact that most of the companies that are driving that demand, the hyperscalers in particular, have been on the vanguard of decarbonization commitments? And take it pretty seriously.”
Friedmann: Hyperscalers prioritize deployment speed over cost and carbon
“We've learned the top five things that the hyperscalers and people building data centers want is, in this order, speed, speed, speed, cost, and carbon. All of those are important, but speed is the thing that is driving a lot of this.”
Friedmann: Zero announced gas CCS data centers, but hyperscalers are circling
“Are there announced projects? No. But we are getting a lot of inbound on this exact topic, and we are talking to, if not all of the hyperscalers, almost all of the hyperscalers.”
Friedmann: 40 global CCS facilities capture 60M tons of CO2 annually
“And we have deployed CCS on some 40 facilities around the world. We're capturing around sixty million tons a year and injecting it underground.”
Friedmann: Gas CCS is most expensive per ton, cheapest per MWh
“If you think about it in terms of dollars per ton, natural gas is the most expensive. If you think about it in terms of dollars per megawatt hour, it's actually the least in the power sector.”
Friedmann: Gas with CCS builds in half the time of nuclear
“They can build a natural gas with CCS plant in roughly half the time in which they could build a nuclear plant.”
Friedmann: New gas with full CCS costs $70–$100/MWh in the US
“In the U.S., assuming three dollars per million BTU for natural gas, on a new build, All costs. That means cost of capture, compression, transportation, storage, and permitting. You're looking at 70 to a hundred dollars a megawatt hour.”
Friedmann: Gas with carbon capture beats nuclear cold in many markets
“In many markets, that's competitive with wind, solar, and batteries. In many markets, that just beats nuclear cold.”
Friedmann: Retrofitting depreciated gas plants with CCS costs $40–$70/MWh
“I will add, if you retrofit an existing plant, it's cheaper, because assuming that plant has been fully depreciated, so you're retrofitting something that's in a utility off on the grid somewhere, the costs come in more like 40 to 70 dollars a megawatt hour.”
Friedmann: Section 45Q cuts gas CCS adder in half to $10–$15/MWh
“And that means you're looking at something like 20 to 25 to 30 dollars a megawatt hour is the adder in most markets. And 45 Q knocks off, say, half of that.”
Friedmann: Carbon capture projects are impossible without transport and storage infrastructure
“If there is no CO₂ transportation in storage, there is no project. Period. Plop. You can't make it work.”
Friedmann: Fluor, SLB, Shell, and Mitsubishi offer fully commercial 10Mt carbon capture
“There's a handful of companies that will today sell you a big facility with a performance guarantee and a wrapper, and they will sell you like up to ten million tons of capture a year. They will sell you big facilities. These are Fleur, Schlumberger Acker, She…”
Friedmann: Europe will not deploy much gas-with-CCS due to fuel costs
“I will reiterate that this number, 70 to a hundred dollar megawatts, requires low cost natural gas. So Europe is not going to be doing a lot of this, right?”
Friedmann: Adding Carbon Capture Reduces Pollutant Load of Gas Plants
“And in fact, if you have a natural gas plant that's running uncontrolled, carbon capture reduces the pollutant load.”
Friedmann: Secretary Wright is proposing cuts to Congressionally approved clean energy programs
“We are seeing Secretary Wright propose a set of cuts to programs that were approved by Congress and approved by the prior DOE. In some cases, Congress, I mean the contracts have already been made, and this is part of the broader rescission around clean energy.…”
Friedmann: Congress is highly likely to preserve 45Q and 45V tax credits
“With respect to Forty-five-Q and other tax credits in the IRA, the Inflation Reduction Act I give high odds That they will sustain, 45 Q, 45 V related projects.”
Friedmann: Policy uncertainty is killing carbon capture investment decisions
“This kind of uncertainty is killing investment decisions at best. They're delayed at some point or another people just walk away. And it is critically important that the United States resolve these questions firmly and clearly so that investors can put money t…”