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Oct 2, 2025 · 40m · catalyst

The new wave of DERs

Dana Guernsey · 23m spoken Shayle Kann · 9m spoken
0:00 / 0:00

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Voltus CEO Dana Guernsey joins host Shail Khan on Catalyst to examine the evolution of demand response into a 365-day dispatchable grid asset and discuss new virtual power plant models tailored to support rapid data center load growth.

How this conversation actually went

Every chapter scored 0–10 on four independent dynamics. Hover any point for the reasoning behind the score. Shayle holds 26.4% of the talking time here. How this is scored →

Shayle as informed peer 5.3 Guest teaching 5.1 Guest disagreement 0.9 Shayle pushing back 0.7
05100:0015:0030:004:56–9:43 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 The Transition from Emergency Curtailment to Daily Dispatch Shayle opens by asking Dana for a high-level history of the demand response sector. Dana provides detailed institutional context, tracing the market evolution from manual utility interruptible phone calls to FERC Orders 719 and 745 and modern daily dispatch.9:43–14:03 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Diversification of Demand-Side Verticals and Portfolio Aggregation Shayle demonstrates strong domain mastery by synthesizing four distinct evolutionary vectors of the demand flexibility market. Dana builds on his framing by breaking down the 50+ commercial, industrial, and residential verticals participating on the platform.14:04–17:31 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 Behind-the-Meter DER Assets and Geographic Risk Management Shayle inquires about behind-the-meter dispatch assets and geographic concentration across ISOs. Dana explains Voltus's risk mitigation strategy of operating across all North American wholesale markets to hedge capacity auction volatility.17:33–21:16 · Shayle as informed peer 4/10 Flattening Value Streams and Grid Reliability Muscle Memory Shayle asks whether DR earnings remain concentrated on a few peak summer days. Dana clarifies that seasonal value has smoothed significantly across winter peaks, shoulder outage periods, and regular ancillary reserve dispatches.21:20–28:01 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Sponsor Break: Clean Power and Virtual Power Plant Technologies Following an ad break, Shayle drills into PJM capacity auction price spikes and ELCC accreditation rules. Dana explains the mechanics of incremental auctions and highlights regulatory bottlenecks around smart meter data access.28:01–33:55 · Shayle as informed peer 6/10 Launching the 'Bring Your Own Capacity' Model for Data Centers Dana introduces Voltus's newly announced 'Bring Your Own Capacity' (BYOC) product for data centers. Shayle contextualizes how this differs from traditional utility bilateral deals and gas turbine buildouts, prompting Dana to reframe the definition of grid co-location.33:56–39:28 · Shayle as informed peer 7/10 Economics, Deployment Speed, and Grid Efficiency of BYOC Shayle challenges the assumption that VPP capacity is automatically cheaper than conventional generation given customer acquisition friction. Dana defends the economic and speed advantages of VPPs over backordered gas peakers by citing Duke research on grid utilization efficiency.4:56–9:43 · Guest teaching 6/10 The Transition from Emergency Curtailment to Daily Dispatch Shayle opens by asking Dana for a high-level history of the demand response sector. Dana provides detailed institutional context, tracing the market evolution from manual utility interruptible phone calls to FERC Orders 719 and 745 and modern daily dispatch.9:43–14:03 · Guest teaching 5/10 Diversification of Demand-Side Verticals and Portfolio Aggregation Shayle demonstrates strong domain mastery by synthesizing four distinct evolutionary vectors of the demand flexibility market. Dana builds on his framing by breaking down the 50+ commercial, industrial, and residential verticals participating on the platform.14:04–17:31 · Guest teaching 4/10 Behind-the-Meter DER Assets and Geographic Risk Management Shayle inquires about behind-the-meter dispatch assets and geographic concentration across ISOs. Dana explains Voltus's risk mitigation strategy of operating across all North American wholesale markets to hedge capacity auction volatility.17:33–21:16 · Guest teaching 6/10 Flattening Value Streams and Grid Reliability Muscle Memory Shayle asks whether DR earnings remain concentrated on a few peak summer days. Dana clarifies that seasonal value has smoothed significantly across winter peaks, shoulder outage periods, and regular ancillary reserve dispatches.21:20–28:01 · Guest teaching 5/10 Sponsor Break: Clean Power and Virtual Power Plant Technologies Following an ad break, Shayle drills into PJM capacity auction price spikes and ELCC accreditation rules. Dana explains the mechanics of incremental auctions and highlights regulatory bottlenecks around smart meter data access.28:01–33:55 · Guest teaching 4/10 Launching the 'Bring Your Own Capacity' Model for Data Centers Dana introduces Voltus's newly announced 'Bring Your Own Capacity' (BYOC) product for data centers. Shayle contextualizes how this differs from traditional utility bilateral deals and gas turbine buildouts, prompting Dana to reframe the definition of grid co-location.33:56–39:28 · Guest teaching 6/10 Economics, Deployment Speed, and Grid Efficiency of BYOC Shayle challenges the assumption that VPP capacity is automatically cheaper than conventional generation given customer acquisition friction. Dana defends the economic and speed advantages of VPPs over backordered gas peakers by citing Duke research on grid utilization efficiency.4:56–9:43 · Guest disagreement 1/10 The Transition from Emergency Curtailment to Daily Dispatch Shayle opens by asking Dana for a high-level history of the demand response sector. Dana provides detailed institutional context, tracing the market evolution from manual utility interruptible phone calls to FERC Orders 719 and 745 and modern daily dispatch.9:43–14:03 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Diversification of Demand-Side Verticals and Portfolio Aggregation Shayle demonstrates strong domain mastery by synthesizing four distinct evolutionary vectors of the demand flexibility market. Dana builds on his framing by breaking down the 50+ commercial, industrial, and residential verticals participating on the platform.14:04–17:31 · Guest disagreement 0/10 Behind-the-Meter DER Assets and Geographic Risk Management Shayle inquires about behind-the-meter dispatch assets and geographic concentration across ISOs. Dana explains Voltus's risk mitigation strategy of operating across all North American wholesale markets to hedge capacity auction volatility.17:33–21:16 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Flattening Value Streams and Grid Reliability Muscle Memory Shayle asks whether DR earnings remain concentrated on a few peak summer days. Dana clarifies that seasonal value has smoothed significantly across winter peaks, shoulder outage periods, and regular ancillary reserve dispatches.21:20–28:01 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Sponsor Break: Clean Power and Virtual Power Plant Technologies Following an ad break, Shayle drills into PJM capacity auction price spikes and ELCC accreditation rules. Dana explains the mechanics of incremental auctions and highlights regulatory bottlenecks around smart meter data access.28:01–33:55 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Launching the 'Bring Your Own Capacity' Model for Data Centers Dana introduces Voltus's newly announced 'Bring Your Own Capacity' (BYOC) product for data centers. Shayle contextualizes how this differs from traditional utility bilateral deals and gas turbine buildouts, prompting Dana to reframe the definition of grid co-location.33:56–39:28 · Guest disagreement 1/10 Economics, Deployment Speed, and Grid Efficiency of BYOC Shayle challenges the assumption that VPP capacity is automatically cheaper than conventional generation given customer acquisition friction. Dana defends the economic and speed advantages of VPPs over backordered gas peakers by citing Duke research on grid utilization efficiency.4:56–9:43 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 The Transition from Emergency Curtailment to Daily Dispatch Shayle opens by asking Dana for a high-level history of the demand response sector. Dana provides detailed institutional context, tracing the market evolution from manual utility interruptible phone calls to FERC Orders 719 and 745 and modern daily dispatch.9:43–14:03 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Diversification of Demand-Side Verticals and Portfolio Aggregation Shayle demonstrates strong domain mastery by synthesizing four distinct evolutionary vectors of the demand flexibility market. Dana builds on his framing by breaking down the 50+ commercial, industrial, and residential verticals participating on the platform.14:04–17:31 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Behind-the-Meter DER Assets and Geographic Risk Management Shayle inquires about behind-the-meter dispatch assets and geographic concentration across ISOs. Dana explains Voltus's risk mitigation strategy of operating across all North American wholesale markets to hedge capacity auction volatility.17:33–21:16 · Shayle pushing back 0/10 Flattening Value Streams and Grid Reliability Muscle Memory Shayle asks whether DR earnings remain concentrated on a few peak summer days. Dana clarifies that seasonal value has smoothed significantly across winter peaks, shoulder outage periods, and regular ancillary reserve dispatches.21:20–28:01 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Sponsor Break: Clean Power and Virtual Power Plant Technologies Following an ad break, Shayle drills into PJM capacity auction price spikes and ELCC accreditation rules. Dana explains the mechanics of incremental auctions and highlights regulatory bottlenecks around smart meter data access.28:01–33:55 · Shayle pushing back 1/10 Launching the 'Bring Your Own Capacity' Model for Data Centers Dana introduces Voltus's newly announced 'Bring Your Own Capacity' (BYOC) product for data centers. Shayle contextualizes how this differs from traditional utility bilateral deals and gas turbine buildouts, prompting Dana to reframe the definition of grid co-location.33:56–39:28 · Shayle pushing back 2/10 Economics, Deployment Speed, and Grid Efficiency of BYOC Shayle challenges the assumption that VPP capacity is automatically cheaper than conventional generation given customer acquisition friction. Dana defends the economic and speed advantages of VPPs over backordered gas peakers by citing Duke research on grid utilization efficiency.

speaking balance: gold is Shayle, purple is the guest (3 minute bins)

0:00 · Shayle 26.2% · guest 73.8%0:00 · Shayle 26.2% · guest 73.8%3:00 · Shayle 87.8% · guest 12.2%3:00 · Shayle 87.8% · guest 12.2%6:00 · Shayle 0% · guest 100%6:00 · Shayle 0% · guest 100%9:00 · Shayle 52.4% · guest 47.6%9:00 · Shayle 52.4% · guest 47.6%12:00 · Shayle 16.6% · guest 83.4%12:00 · Shayle 16.6% · guest 83.4%15:00 · Shayle 27.2% · guest 72.8%15:00 · Shayle 27.2% · guest 72.8%18:00 · Shayle 1.7% · guest 98.3%18:00 · Shayle 1.7% · guest 98.3%21:00 · Shayle 21% · guest 79%21:00 · Shayle 21% · guest 79%24:00 · Shayle 12.7% · guest 87.3%24:00 · Shayle 12.7% · guest 87.3%27:00 · Shayle 12.9% · guest 87.1%27:00 · Shayle 12.9% · guest 87.1%30:00 · Shayle 26.7% · guest 73.3%30:00 · Shayle 26.7% · guest 73.3%33:00 · Shayle 22.5% · guest 77.5%33:00 · Shayle 22.5% · guest 77.5%36:00 · Shayle 29.9% · guest 70.1%36:00 · Shayle 29.9% · guest 70.1%39:00 · Shayle 44.2% · guest 55.8%39:00 · Shayle 44.2% · guest 55.8%
Sharpest disagreement ▶ 32:10 Rejecting narrow on-site 24/7 generation co-location

Dana pushes back against the traditional assumption that large data center loads must co-locate physical 24/7 power plants on their exact parcel, urging the industry to broaden its definition of co-location.

 Hardest push from Shayle ▶ 36:24 Shayle challenges VPP cost assumptions versus gas peakers

Shayle refuses the simple assumption that VPPs are inherently lower cost, questioning how customer acquisition and integration overhead impact their competitiveness against new generation.

 Biggest teaching moment ▶ 18:05 Dana dismantles the summer-only peak revenue assumption

Dana educates Shayle on modern market mechanics, explaining that relying purely on extreme summer heat waves is an outdated 1.0 concept now replaced by multi-seasonal and operating reserve revenue streams.

 Shayle holds their own ▶ 9:43 Shayle structures the multi-vector framework of DR evolution

Shayle demonstrates deep market expertise by systematically framing the expansion of demand response across automation, dispatch frequency, diverse customer profiles, and behind-the-meter asset types.
the scores for every segment, with the reasoning behind each
ChapterTopicShayle as informed peerGuest teachingGuest disagreementShayle pushing backWhy
The Transition from Emergency Curtailment to Daily Dispatch 4610 Shayle opens by asking Dana for a high-level history of the demand response sector. Dana provides detailed institutional context, tracing the market evolution from manual utility interruptible phone calls to FERC Orders 719 and 745 and modern daily dispatch.
Diversification of Demand-Side Verticals and Portfolio Aggregation 6511 Shayle demonstrates strong domain mastery by synthesizing four distinct evolutionary vectors of the demand flexibility market. Dana builds on his framing by breaking down the 50+ commercial, industrial, and residential verticals participating on the platform.
Behind-the-Meter DER Assets and Geographic Risk Management 4400 Shayle inquires about behind-the-meter dispatch assets and geographic concentration across ISOs. Dana explains Voltus's risk mitigation strategy of operating across all North American wholesale markets to hedge capacity auction volatility.
Flattening Value Streams and Grid Reliability Muscle Memory 4610 Shayle asks whether DR earnings remain concentrated on a few peak summer days. Dana clarifies that seasonal value has smoothed significantly across winter peaks, shoulder outage periods, and regular ancillary reserve dispatches.
Sponsor Break: Clean Power and Virtual Power Plant Technologies 6511 Following an ad break, Shayle drills into PJM capacity auction price spikes and ELCC accreditation rules. Dana explains the mechanics of incremental auctions and highlights regulatory bottlenecks around smart meter data access.
Launching the 'Bring Your Own Capacity' Model for Data Centers 6411 Dana introduces Voltus's newly announced 'Bring Your Own Capacity' (BYOC) product for data centers. Shayle contextualizes how this differs from traditional utility bilateral deals and gas turbine buildouts, prompting Dana to reframe the definition of grid co-location.
Economics, Deployment Speed, and Grid Efficiency of BYOC 7612 Shayle challenges the assumption that VPP capacity is automatically cheaper than conventional generation given customer acquisition friction. Dana defends the economic and speed advantages of VPPs over backordered gas peakers by citing Duke research on grid utilization efficiency.

Statements from this episode (8)

Opinion
Kann: Very few asset-light energy startups produce massive venture outcomes
“For all the talk that I often hear, I'm sure many of you hear from many of my peer venture capitalists about asset light, low capital intensity startups in this space, The reality, in my humble opinion, is that there's actually very little historical evidence …”
Shayle Kann Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 3:07
Assertion Supported
Kann: Demand response is rare climate category with venture-backed IPOs
“Demand response as a category can, I think, accurately claim to have actually produced a venture backed IPO, not even a SPAC, which is not true of many other categories that you see in vogue today.”
Shayle Kann Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 4:03
Insight
Guernsey: VPP strength relies on pairing assets with complementary operating constraints
“In many ways, that's the strength of the portfolio. You can take things that maybe have operating parameters and constraints and pair them with other things, or other customers that have similar but different constraints, and now you can respond to what the gr…”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 13:44
Assertion Not checkable as stated
Guernsey: Demand response has shifted from summer peaks to year-round dispatch
“One, like, this notion that, like, the summer hottest, peakiest day is, like, the end all be all. That, that's gone. That was one point oh. So, we have winter peaks, we have shoulder issues because of outages and things like that. And so, just even, like, acro…”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 18:13
Insight
Guernsey: Lack of smart meter data access throttles residential demand response
“When I think about the growth of our residential portfolio and what's, I think you used the term rate limiting there it's the lack of access to, and I'm going to air quotes here for the listeners, smart meters, right? So we deployed all these smart meters, we …”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 27:11
Insight
Guernsey: Co-locating capacity at grid constraints helps solve data center bottlenecks
“This notion of, like, on-site versus off-site can be a little bit more flexible if you're willing to take into account the fact that as long as you're co-locating at the constraint, that's solving the problem, and now you have more tools in your toolkit, inclu…”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 32:59
Opinion
Guernsey: Virtual power plants deploy faster and cheaper than new gas plants
“It absolutely should be more affordable if the alternative is going out and building a new natural gas power plant. For one, not only are you going to, like, open up the catalog and see that it's backordered till twenty-twenty, or sorry, not twenty-twenty, twe…”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 37:52
Assertion Supported
Guernsey: Up to 20% of grid capacity runs under 1% of time
“10, 20% of the capacity is built for less than one percent of the time.”
Dana Guernsey Oct 2, 2025 ▶ 39:00
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